We're experimenting with the addition of episode transcriptions. Note: the audio is transcribed with AI, via Otter.
Will Butler 0:13
Nine years 2014 Nish been in Kensington and Brooklyn for six years about almost exactly six years.
Brian Heater 0:24
Was that a work related move?
Will Butler 0:25
No, I lived in Montreal for like 10 years. And me and my wife were like, We love Montreal, but we're ready to not live here. And we New York is not the most random place to move to, but it was essentially random. And then we really liked it being spread
Brian Heater 0:43
out all over the country. It seems like it can be difficult when the time comes to, you know, do an album or tour.
Will Butler 0:53
Yeah, I mean, now. Now we're all in New York. Now. My band is like, Oh, actually, now we're between Brooklyn. And beacon.
Brian Heater 1:03
Oh, well, that's that's a 30 minute trade right, right there.
Will Butler 1:07
It's, it's farther than you think. I feel like a crowd going across New York City is longer in many ways than then a lot of trips within the continental US.
Brian Heater 1:20
I get my Los Angeles friends if I'm meeting up with people on the west side, and they love my east side, I totally understand not wanting to cross Los Angeles, you know, anywhere near rush hour. But New York, like we've got this wonderful subway system. And it goes pretty much you know, every more or less everywhere, and at least for for the five boroughs. But yet, you know, me asking somebody to come out to Queens, it would be like me asking somebody to get on a plane and fly to see me.
Will Butler 1:50
No, I've I have friends in Queens that I've never been to their place. Because it's it as the crow flies, it's like 19 minutes, but it's, like 95 minutes. Beacon
Brian Heater 2:01
seems like it would be a pretty good place to read the pandemic. I you know, it was tough for my live in one bedroom, but it was hard. Being in New York and you've got a family. I imagine that that must have driven up the walls.
Will Butler 2:15
Yeah, it was, it was very intense. I mean, particularly the spring, just when it was when New York was like, the, whatever I when New York was so intense, like right when it started. And it was, you know, we have three kids, we had our we have twins who are two and an eight year old. So we were getting like, a second grader home from school. Like doing a second grader doing TV School, which was were horrible. Well, just like computer school, like online school, like, like, but being eight years old, and like on a laptop, no, no, just like, just just horrible. I mean, the teachers did their best, they were great. But it was just not a not a great circumstance. But the end, I mean, I mean, we were very lucky. And like, we have like a little yard in the back. And like, you know, we're relatively near the park. But you know, for a while you couldn't in that spring, you couldn't even go to the park. Like they had like closed off the parks, which was like and I even took my eight year old out a couple times to like the parade grounds. And we were like kicking a ball and the ball would like go past some other people and they'd be like, about to throw it back. You'd be like, nevermind, welcome, like step back. For just in that like it. Like a March. April May was like so crazy. And then and then it was a year of hanger hangover from that. And then it'll come out again, I'm sure every periodically throughout my life like, like when my kids go off to school, they'll be like, Why are you being so crazy? And I'll be like, Why am I being so crazy? Oh, it's the pandemic. That's why I'm being so crazy to you right now. But anyway to like, take this can of tomatoes,
Brian Heater 4:05
the like psychological impact that you're carrying? Yeah,
Will Butler 4:09
I think so. I think it'll come out at some point. But again, we were ultimately fine. And we were very lucky and we were lucky to be able to stay home and like on the balance it was lovely to spend so much time with the family with my kids you know it's like like not say it wasn't it was very difficult but but on the balance it was a net positive but it was
Unknown Speaker 4:36
pure was kooky.
Brian Heater 4:42
I've heard some kind of bummer stories for people who are touring all the time and like miss these like really important moments in their, the children's formative years and a very least like one of the things that stead was forced to you know, yeah, that sounds that sounds bad, but it did it for us. Yeah. To be around and to see everything.
Will Butler 4:59
Yeah. I mean, when I was in Arcade Fire, it was always relatively civilized. I mean, we, we kept it relatively civilized, and we would tour and then take breaks and taurine was we were never
that dedicated to life on the road. We are and we were very fortunate to be able to make it work that way. But it was yeah, it was that was like a long stretch of, of, of chillin out uptight, chillin out.
Brian Heater 5:34
How aware were the twins that something strange was happening?
Will Butler 5:40
I don't think they were very aware they were two. And they had each other. So they weren't even like, like, I think it was hard for people. I mean, even even, you know, we have lots of friends with one kid. And I think that was probably stranger because their kid wasn't hanging out with any other kids and our kids were at least hanging out with two other kids and the twins had each other. And
Brian Heater 6:04
an eight year old hanging out with a two year old if that.
Will Butler 6:08
No, Alvin, my oldest Alvin did not have that much fun. He did not enjoy his pandemic. And twins were blissfully unaware. And they played with each other. And, and it wasn't. Yeah, it was it was basically no biggie for them. And like you, but you know, we had friends with kids that age, who didn't have other kids around. And there is like, speech developmental delays and stuff because you're just not like, chatty with other kids and chatting or with other grown ups and stuff. I mean, they're good parents, but it's just like when you're completely isolated from society. It'll like it'll strange things happen. But yeah, our eight year old now 11 year old did not enjoy it until, you know, it was six months. And then he started playing baseball that fall like that October six, seven months in. And that was great. Because that's, that's standing in a field 20 feet apart from everyone, then that's how you play the game. Like, that's the nature of the game. So it was extremely normal. And he was like playing baseball with his friends. And it was like, You're throwing the ball 20 feet anyway. So like, that was a completely normal experience. And that was like the start of it. Of he was
Brian Heater 7:27
in the outfield? Yeah, I mean, you bring up a good point. And maybe it's something that like, isn't, I mean, I'm sure if you have kids, it's something that you and the other parents discuss a lot. But the you know, for for like, kids in high school, I understand how incredibly difficult that must have been, you know, like missing your prom and missing all these formative things, but socializing and learning social skills is such a big part of those younger grades.
Will Butler 7:56
The kids that were in kindergarten and first grade, I think got the Ross deal. Like, right when you like, learn how to walk in line. Like learn how to like, you know, eat just like dealing with being in a room with 20 people is such a social skill. And like, and those kids that missed that got the Ross do I mean, Alvin? Alvin? Again, Alvin didn't have the most fun being a second grader and like, yeah, he was he was he had a pretty bummer. Bummer year. But uh, but yeah, there were there were a lot of kids that were just like, really would have benefited from like, hanging out with people. And I mean, and I don't mean that in any political sense. That is not a comment. But I feel like I need to put an asterisk like, this is not a comment on policy. This is just
Brian Heater 8:52
like, No, I wouldn't have been any better. But he went through it understands what you're talking about,
Will Butler 8:56
like everyone was doing there. But not everyone was doing their best but a lot of people are doing their best. You
Brian Heater 9:02
know, now that you're in a band with your wife how distorting work.
Will Butler 9:07
So we just did three weeks in Europe. And for that stretch, my parents came down and they just got totally hammered by all the fall school colds. They're just got like both everybody got pinkeye and people were throwing up and it was it was nobody has immunities anymore. Yeah. But um, but you know we, for a couple stretches before we hired a babysitter that we've known since before we had kids. And we hired and and Jenny's sister Julie is also in the band and her husband who mixed my record. He's a great uncle like he stayed with the kids this last weekend. We were we were doing a weekend shows and he stayed with the kids and he's great. Good uncle. We have family and babysitters and, and it was an experiment. The twins are five now so it feels possible like everyone's in school, and when that's cruising, like the week is just fly by. But it was an experiment. And it worked. I was like, okay, we can do this. Because we had never done it before.
Brian Heater 10:16
I talked to parents in bands who have taken their kids, both at a very young age, but also sort of later when they're actually like, understand what's going on have taken them on tour with them. Is that something that you you would ever do?
Unknown Speaker 10:30
Yeah, I would do.
Will Butler 10:34
It depends. I mean, it's honestly just like a cost calculation. And a space calculation. Like how many seats we have in the van like, and then how many hotel rooms do we need to get? But no, I mean, Alvin, our, again, our oldest Alvin and is interested in that. And if the timing was right, I wouldn't I wouldn't hesitate to bring them out. But yeah, it's like Van tour is it's pretty hot and heavy. It's not you know, it's not good for it's not good for a young person's bones.
Brian Heater 11:09
He's old enough to appreciate what the two of you do for work.
Unknown Speaker 11:13
Yeah. Yeah, he he is he's,
Will Butler 11:20
he's old enough. And he's thoughtful enough. And he is, you know, he's interested in the world.
And he and actually he minded more when that we were gone. Like we were gone for three weeks and the five year olds kind of didn't bat an eye. They just were like that did you do which is not true of all five year old, some would just break down every day. But they didn't bet nine. He was like, he kind of missed the emotional support. I mean, my parents are great. They're great grandparents, but like you just having as mom and dad, he was like, Oh, I missed that. Like, like you guys get me. So he's a preteen you're not a teenager yet. You know, you would be it'll be different when he's 14.
Brian Heater 12:08
It's angst, but it's a different kind of angst. It's yeah, pre angst. Yes. Pre angst. You come from a musical family for several generations. It seems like Yeah.
Will Butler 12:19
Yeah. My mom is a is a harpist and musician and our Jazz, Jazz harpist and rock'n'roll piano player and her parents were musicians. Her mom was a singer in a singing group with their sisters, called the King sisters. They were born their last name was originally Driggs, but they changed it to King for showbiz. Their dad's name was King anyway. And then my mom's dad was alpino Ray
Brian Heater 12:48
sisters kind of thing. Yeah, exactly
Will Butler 12:51
like four part harmony, Jazz Jazz harmonies. And my grandmother wheeze. She married my grandpa. His name's I'll be you know, right. He was born Alvin McBurney, but changed his name to alpino Ray, guitar player, big bandleader. And then yeah, my grandma grew up in like a pre depression like itinerant entertaining family like driving across the American West and like the 19 teens 1920s Like doing church shows and proto vaudeville with her dad, who was yeah, just her dad but like, we're a family band now and kind of and that was, you know, and he was born in whatever 1880s Utah or something like that, just like real hardcore life.
Brian Heater 13:40
Oh, so they were like pioneering Mormons. Yeah, really? Yeah, my,
Will Butler 13:45
my great grandpa King. Driggs was like the last son of the second wife of like a polygamist homesteader like in desert Utah like in small town, Utah, like farmer rancher guy. And then he he wanted to be a musician and got married and had kids and was like, kind of a failed composer and music teacher and then turned his family into a family band and and I don't know that it was that successful but they they did it. Like they, they like like my grandma wrote a memoir and like between the lines you can feel how rough it was like and then like Daddy got thrown in prison for for I don't know what and you're like, you know what, you know what he got thrown in prison for you're just like he was what was going on grandma.
Brian Heater 14:45
Maybe it's a case of like being more willing to tell more about yourself and not wanting to reveal things other people don't necessarily want revealed.
Will Butler 14:53
And it was, I mean, it's also genuinely, it's genuinely complicated like it is. It is Like genuinely a happy story with a happy ending where they became like famous singers, they like grew up in this family band. And then the sisters became famous singers and, like, brought the family up out of poverty and they loved each other. And it was and it was great. But it's also extremely complicated and very human and like, like, there was like, definitely a toll. I mean, it's, it's kind of, like everything in the, in the 20th century, where it's like, there's like a massive human toll, particularly on the women, that it was just like, completely unspoken. And, and for a lot of women was just like, they were there was like, that's the bargain. Like, that's what it is. You know what I mean? Like, like, the, the, because that's the world she lived in. She was she was very happy with it, or for whatever that means. But yeah, no, I mean, I write complicated, but ultimately, like a happy ending, but still, like a very complicated story. So
Brian Heater 16:10
your mom was juggling a music career and children at the same time?
Unknown Speaker 16:17
Yeah, it was pretty.
Will Butler 16:20
It was not as intense. Like when I was a when I was a baby. Like she was playing nightclubs and stuff. I was born in Northern California, like, like half an hour outside of Reno. So my mom was playing like my clubs, and Reno and Lake Tahoe and stuff when I was when I was two or three before I remember. And then by the time I was alive, we were living in suburban Texas, and she wasn't super active, but she was she was doing concerts in schools. And she she made a couple of records within my memory. But it was not as hardcore as, as when, in the early 80s, when I was really young, or before, I mean, before that she was like, a studio musician in LA. And, and, you know, like, at a rock band in the late 60s, like when she was in
Speaker 2 17:08
her 20s. That's amazing. Yeah. And,
Will Butler 17:15
and yeah, so she, she had that was not the most intense phase of that for her. And partly, partly it was because we were in suburban Texas, and it's not like there were like, oodles of opportunities to play music, I think she would have probably wanted to play more music, but was in suburban Texas. Which is, which I was also not aware of as a youth.
Brian Heater 17:40
When the kids grew up and moved out, did she kind of rekindled that part of her a little bit, not a ton.
Will Butler 17:47
My parents moved to Maine, my dad's from Maine. My dad grew up in Maine, my mom from LA, and it's so physically beautiful, where they live. And that was always kind of my mom's, like, my mom grew up in showbiz. And she kind of, again, it very complicated where it's like, both wanted to do it, but also knew it very intimately and didn't want to do it, but also wanted to do it but also didn't want to do it, but also knew it very intimately, but also knew it very intimately. And so they moved, they moved to Maine when we were in college, they moved to Maine, which is less less rock'n'roll than suburban Texas even. But she I mean, she's always stayed active. She's always recorded things and, and made records and if nothing else, played the harp and church and stuff like that, but uh, no, not playing gigs that much. But, uh, but, you know, I think in a perfect world, she would have it all but she was very willing to like, be like, I'm happy to live in a beautiful place. Like, there's like water here. And then like a little bit a mountain like this is pretty good.
Brian Heater 19:04
When you were younger, your mother having been in and around showbusiness, did they? Did they encourage you or dissuade you when it came to actually trying to pursue music professionally?
Will Butler 19:18
No, I mean, as best as I can tell, it just made it extremely normal. That I would play music. You know, when I was when I was in college, I took a semester off my sophomore year, I took my spring. We actually did trimester, so did my spring trimester off and went to Montreal to be an Arcade Fire. And there was a lot of families that would be like, Absolutely not like you are in school to be an engineer. But like, my family was like, Oh, that makes sense that you Don't play music. And they weren't expecting any success or anything but like, it was my dad's a geologist. But he you know, he knows my mom's family really well, and he knows my mom really well, obviously.
Brian Heater 20:13
So they were both into rock but different. Exactly.
Will Butler 20:16
Go to hell get out here. There's interviews over.
Brian Heater 20:23
Wouldn't on plane Yes. pretty terrible.
Will Butler 20:26
But yeah, so as best as I can tell, it just made it extremely normal. And, you know, I'm not particularly technically talented, but I'm very musical. Like, I just grew up so deeply exposed to music, that it it did. It did give me the skill set to make good music, whether it's nature, nature and nurture. How
Brian Heater 20:49
do you sort of differentiate technical skill with musicality?
Will Butler 20:54
I mean, technical skill is, is training and, you know, it's just like ours at a keyboard or a guitar or it's getting taught in a specific way. And musicality is a bit more instinct and like, moving to the music and feeling the beat, you know, it's it's like just feeling the music and having good instincts.
Unknown Speaker 21:21
But like,
Will Butler 21:24
you know, you can be a, if you have good instincts, you can, like, sit in Oregon and play two notes on an Oregon and add some into a song. But you can't, you can't play an amazing Oregon solo, but you can, like contribute. You know, if you're a dancer, like my, my band, Sister squares is all people that are basically people that are dancers who are never like, technically, you know, they took like, high school band, but they're so musical, like, they can just slot into music in a way that's that it's not like they, they can't do like runs on a keyboard. But they respond to music. And then as long as you can produce something in response to music, then it it all works out.
Brian Heater 22:11
I haven't heard anyone to really describe it that way in, in the sense of, I mean, obviously, dancing and music are very interrelated. But but there being some transferable skills between the two having having a bit I mean, not obviously, not entirely, but having a band with several non musicians. How does that impact the music?
Will Butler 22:31
I mean, it kind of depends on what kind of music you're making. I've always made it from like I it's vaguely in the punk rock tradition. And the punk the true punk rock tradition is not even musical, just like complete idiot. Like, I'm a complete idiot. And there's something amazing in that there's something very naive, and and can be very powerful in that. And so, the bar is just the bar is anything.
That's like the bar is a John Cage, dropping a toaster on a tile floor is music.
Brian Heater 23:12
Like a Duchamp kind of Yeah,
Will Butler 23:15
so so it's like, we're starting that like that's the bar is that like, Sid Vicious, his music and dropping a toaster on a tile floors, music. And so that's the tradition that the music I make comes from basically. And so if you can, if you can hold the beat, then then it's great. And like I remember early days, smiles aren't and mouse Francis and my band is an amazing drummer. And one of the first times we played together as a band, it was Julie Shore was playing synth keyboard. Like he's a piano player, but she's never played bass or anything. But I was like this. This synthesizer sounds good on bass, like you play bass. And Myles was playing drums. And, and Myles was so pleased to play with someone who was playing bass that did not have. They just hadn't been taught any rules or anything about what it means to be a bass player. So it's just like, oh, this, this feels right, or this feels right. But it's not like you have to match it with the kick drum and like leave space for this. It's just like, what this feels kind of cool. And this feels good. This feels bad. And this feels cool. And just if you're musical, then it then it develops into something. And sometimes, you know, sometimes if it's not musical, it's still developed into something pleasing, but that's a different. That's it. Those are different genres like, like, it just means that it's nice to not be aware of. of
it's nice for there to be some sort of naivete. A I mean, I always respond to that some some sort of naivete.
Brian Heater 25:04
There's a pretty steep learning curve, I would imagine. Oh,
Will Butler 25:07
I mean, but no, I mean, Julie's a great piano player. So, so playing, you know, so she can play. It's just one note. Same and, and everyone in the band is such and Miles is a true dry, like, Miles has been playing drums since they were five or whatever. And everyone's an amazing singer. You know, they all took like, chorus, and they've all done musicals and stuff. So everyone's like an amazing singer. And has and as a compass, you know, can read, they're not like, they had never written anything out. But they can like read music, they've all taken five years of piano lessons or done high school band, like it's not from nothing. It's not from it's not from nothing. But not but not technically proficient. Not again, except Julie can play show. You know, Julie is like a piano player like Julie plays Chopin. And play guitar, you know, like, there. It's not that naive. But just not not a not music school. But I mean, miles went to music school. Like it's not it's not a dig against music school. It's just like, not not trained. In that sense.
Brian Heater 26:21
I assume you were being a little hyperbolic with the dropping a toaster on the floor thing? Because he do, obviously, you know, you have standards. So when it comes to like, what you're putting your name on? Yeah, I
Will Butler 26:34
mean, that more just like in the, in the tradition, like that's like, that's the side of the ledger that I'm coming from. Because there's other ways like there's, there's so many ways to come to music, like you can come to music from practicing violin from age four. And there's something astounding about that. Or you can put in the music by like, by by being raised in the church and doing church every Sunday and singing in the church choir and becoming a soloist, like, that's a way to come to music. And, like I and I came in music growing up with a musician mom. But but my philosophy was, as a teenager is a little bit more like, what is the human again? I guess I'm gonna do this and I'm human. And this is part of being human is making this sound Beep boop, boop, boop boop boop, I guess
Brian Heater 27:32
it's just like writing music being an essential part of the human condition.
Will Butler 27:35
Yeah, just like, like a little bit more philosophical, I guess coming from a bit more of a philosophical place, which I'm not recommending it's just kind of the path that it took to get there. Like it's
Unknown Speaker 27:54
yeah, like it's
Will Butler 27:59
I'm trying to think of, of anyway, I'm just trying to describe what the what I see our genre as being
Brian Heater 28:12
if that makes sense. It's obviously very abstract, in a way you know, to try to there's obvious labels you can give to music but to describe the the approach and describe I guess, you know, as a kid say, like the vibe is an entirely different conversation.
Will Butler 28:30
Yeah. No, I mean,
Unknown Speaker 28:35
like, it's
Will Butler 28:38
like making a record is making this weird document. And it's and it's making electrons shake in a specific way and recording those electrons. And that's what I end at some level, I think of that when I'm making a record and some people only think of making a record as like, I'm making a song and I'm making a perfect song and like an ember capturing that which is a great way to think of it but I'm, I'm thinking of it a bit more in the tradition of dropping a toaster on a tile floor but uh, but it's not bad exactly, but it is. If that makes sense I really think there is a I don't even think that as a John Cage
Brian Heater 29:25
he came from a musical backgrounds and he and he had you know, was incredibly musical musically gifted, but
Will Butler 29:31
started as an extremist and I don't support as extremist ideals. I reject them.
Brian Heater 29:36
I think composition should have music in them or Yeah, I guess what I'm having trouble squaring a little bit there is the like, what it means to take a scientific approach and how looking at the music production process as vibrating atoms how that plays into your approach. It's,
Will Butler 30:00
it's scientific, maybe in just like the like, like, in a Socratic Method kind of science where you're just like, where it's, it's kind of starting from first principles each time. We're like, what is the drum? This is the drum. Like, telling me monotony is like, what do you think music is like? I think music must you must clap on the two and four for music. Ah, yes. Manasa knees. But what do you think of? You know, it's it's,
Brian Heater 30:31
so you're kind of reconceptualizing the band or the music every time?
Will Butler 30:37
Yeah, but not. I mean, we're also a band like Grace or just like playing and playing tunes.
Yeah, I mean, it's it's.
Yeah, I guess I'm describing my philosophical approach to it, which is different than like, my practical approach to it. Like the practical approach to it sometimes is pick up a guitar pick up a drum machine. And, you know, at this point, I've played guitar for 20 years. Like, I'm not a naive guitar player by any stretch, like, I'm a person who's played guitar for 20 years, even though I don't think of myself as a guitar player.
Brian Heater 31:18
20 years. I mean, that's, I maybe my memory is bad, but 20 years seems to be about the timeline for Arcade Fire. Starting, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So you you picked up the guitar specifically for Arcade Fire?
Will Butler 31:36
I mean, I didn't. I didn't play guitar on Arcade Fire. No, I mean, I played bass. You know, I got a bass when I was in eighth grade. And I took piano lessons and first grade. But I was never a guitar player. I, I played guitar on tour, and one song with Arcade Fire. And I played acoustic guitar on the song Haiti. Which I played in a fairly naive way. But it's yeah, it's just like 20 years on from that. It's like, Oh, I've been playing guitar for 20 years now. Like, it's no longer naive. Now. It's like, it's now it's a method.
Brian Heater 32:19
It's interesting that those two things kind of kind of coincided in that way. Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, you're getting serious and joining a band. So you want it to it sounds like explore other musical avenues.
Will Butler 32:32
Is that true? No. Again, it was just like, what, it's just the tools in hand, it was just like, making music with the tools at hand. And again, like, I took piano lessons, and I like fifth generation musicians. So it's not like, it is not a suspicious situation by any stretch, but it is. It's more inspired by that, then. Then learning scales, but I did learn scales at a certain point. I mean, I'm not good at them. But I could play you an E flat scale, which Sid Vicious couldn't do.
Brian Heater 33:13
Is there an extent to I mean, this is this is a silly question. But like, is there extent to what's just being from a musical family? Gives you a head start?
Will Butler 33:24
It's not a coincidence. Like, I don't think it's a coincidence.
And it's hard to
it's hard to, like, parse out exactly what it is. What what the advantage is.
Brian Heater 33:41
You haven't lived another life. So yeah, obviously, it's tough to Yeah, one to one. No,
Will Butler 33:46
but it's not like it's not like my grandfather
Unknown Speaker 33:53
had, like,
Will Butler 33:57
label connections that got us in with merge records in the label in North Carolina. You know what I mean? Like, it wasn't. It wasn't a classic, like nepotism. Angle. But it is like, growing up in a family of woodworkers and you like, you know, how to whittle pretty good. And then you're like, and then you're like, Oh, I'm a widower. Now, like I'm a professional Wiggler. Like, there is an aspect of that, that it's that it's a little bit is as best as I can tell us a little bit skill, and it's a little bit comfort with the materials and it's a little bit it's a lot of just again, not they're not being a barrier, like I think, I think there's like a conceptual barrier to being an artist or being a musician for a lot of people and there's like a straight up. It's hard when someone tells you not to do something, it's hard to then do it, even if it's in a casual way or it's like you can't be a musician and like, it's that to me is that it was just normal, made it infinitely easier in a way that's like difficult to comprehend what the advantage that was because it just made it normal. That's like a default. I mean, it's like going to college, like, being a first generation college kid is different than being a third generation college kid because like, oh, it's normal to go to college. And when you're a first generation college kid, it's like, and I'm a third generation college kids. So it's like, oh, this is normal. And you obviously you go to school, and you get a diploma. And you just, there's something very normal about it. That is not that it's hard to articulate every aspect of it. And there are aspects of it that are easy to articulate, but every aspect of it is like a little bit, it gets a little bit more mysterious. But it's obviously there. Like it's not a coincidence that like, it's it's for generations and people but you musicians it's like, makes a lot of sense.
Brian Heater 35:57
It's a very serious thing. And it seems that you're taking the music very seriously, if you're like moving to another country to play in a band.
Unknown Speaker 36:09
Yeah.
Will Butler 36:11
So again, just in your 20s People do all sorts of things in their 20s.
Brian Heater 36:16
This was you like saying, like, this is my shot, like, let's, let's do this. And when we put everything into this thing,
Will Butler 36:25
it was honestly, it was more casual than that. It was more like doing this now. And that's and that's partly why it was so easy. Like, that's partly the ease I was talking about was like, Oh, I'm just gonna do this. And everyone was like, okay, cool. Like, it wasn't that casual, but it was it. It. It was my journey to it. Again, my journey to it was remarkably casual, I would say. Like, there was no plan, I didn't feel planned at all. It just felt like an expression.
Brian Heater 37:01
So you went back to school in 2017? Was that a backup? You know, what were you? Were you thinking about doing something other than music for a while?
Will Butler 37:11
No, I have no plans to do things other than music.
Unknown Speaker 37:18
I'm
Will Butler 37:22
there's a bunch of reasons why we went in, while I went back to school. Just on a selfish level, I just wanted to turn on that part of my brain. Like, I'm a, I am a school person. Like I'm a reader and a writer. And, and I enjoy school and I wanted you know, I was turning 30 years this was 2015 So I was I was 3030 I was 2016 I went I went back in 2016 So I was 34. And I was like, Oh, I feel like my brain is still flexible enough that I can learn something here. And you know, Arcade Fire was was very heavily engaged with partners and health, this great organization that's that just kind of revolutionized health care. And just it's very moral organization. And as I was just like saved millions of lives, like in a nutshell like they partnered and helped basically pioneered AIDS treatment in rural places and and multi drug resistant tuberculosis treatment in rural places, particularly Haiti, but also Peru and and just proved that you could do that you could treat poor people like normal people, and they would get better like normal people. Just like, how about we give them medicine? Oh, at work, like everyone go fuck yourself, the bare minimum stuff. But I was also like, like, okay, I can. Like I could, like, I feel like I could be more useful. Both if I knew more. And if I was more accredited then like, if I have like a Grammy and like a master's degree from Harvard, I feel like I can like, like, cut to the front of some conversations and just feel and be like a more effective advocate. And also can learn like, it's very easy to not be helpful on a policy front and it's very easy to like, if you're a band engaged in charity at all to be to do negative things in the world. And I was like, oh, I should learn. I should both learn more, but also I can be more effective if I'm to the extent that that assholes care about credentials, let me get that credential and then I can I can like, I can at least like those barriers will disappear. And also just selfishly like this will be good for my brain and like, it'll be nice to like, make some new friends in a completely random circumstance and like an engaged with the world. Hold on a different place. And I, at the time I was extremely philosophically against an MFA. Like against like doing a writing program or doing something like that I was very against now I'm less against it. Now I've I've softened in my old age. I don't know, just like, like, you can't teach art that way, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And now I'm like, Oh, actually, it's kind of great. And I've I was like, Well, I was, I was, I mean, I wasn't even a jerk to anyone about it. It was a privately held belief. But I was like, oh, I want to go back to school. Like, I'm not doing an MFA. And now I'm like, Oh, I could have done that too. But that would also would have been fun. But I wanted to do something orthogonal to arts, like with the aim of like, learning about the world in a different way as like an arts education, where it's like, oh, like, going to I went to the Kennedy School for public policy. And I was like, oh, learning deeply about public policy, I think will actually impact my art in a way that like, like, just focusing on craft, it'll just be different. And I did, and it was great. And it was, it's great to like, learn how the world works in a different way. And like, spend a year like reading research papers and learn how to read a research paper and like, learn, like get some of that, you know, if you really focus for a year on something, you it's gets into your mind in a different way than if you just pick it up slowly. And so it was great. I was and and it ended up being the year that Trump got elected. So it was a very interesting time to be in public policy school. Like it was a very rich time to be like, in a place analyzing what's going on in the world.
Brian Heater 41:41
I gotta say, you know, it's it's funny. Now, it's some removed from it. But you know, in the process of like, it was reading some interviews that you did, and I found one from 2015 with The Guardian. And you were so hopeful, you're like, oh, you know, Obama's and like, I, you know, I think things are trending up, and it's just wild. And then, bam. Yeah, we kind of hit a wall right there.
Will Butler 42:06
Yeah, no, and I went into school a bit more like, being like, oh, public policy. For better or worse, it's kind of a video game. And this will help me get better at this video game. And, and then Trump got elected. And it was like, it's not a fucking video game, mate. You're like, oh, shit, right? This is not a video game.
Brian Heater 42:26
measurable impact on people's lives. Yeah. And also,
Will Butler 42:29
the inputs and outputs are not numbers. It's like the inputs and outputs are extremely messy and extremely heavy. So it's like, it was it was a good environment to really start thinking in those terms.
Brian Heater 42:44
It might have been the same interview, you mentioned, Moby Dick. And during the pandemic, I went back and reread Mophie. I, I had I had read it there actually, yeah, I probably can't say, I had read it during high school. And I don't think I really got the whole thing because it's a, it's a wildly It's a wild spirit. It's like, there's, you know, just like chapters of, you know, in like encyclopedic stuff, much of which is very, very wrong. But I think that's kind of the point in some places. It's also like a very gay book, which is something like gets commented on a lot. It's amazing. And it is a very, I mean, obviously, melt Ville wrote a lot of great things. But it is a very singular work, at least in the English language in terms of how the book is structured. And you said something along the lines of my goal is to make music or to make art be like Moby Dick. And I'm wondering, how, how I'm wondering how, when and how something like Moby Dick influences the art you make.
Will Butler 43:53
Yeah, and that that is a reason like, why I was in school where it is that encyclopedia ik epic sense of the world, but also, it's like, my experience of Moby Dick is that it's like 100% deadly serious and 100% Kidding, and just like, it's everything at 100% is like, really funny, and really heartfelt, and very detached and ironic, but like, also like the most spiritual it's like all of the things at once, like it and like, in some ways, it's very detached but it's so it is not it does not like it does not a modern ironic detachment is like a very passionate thing as well. And
Unknown Speaker 44:44
and that was like
Will Butler 44:48
that was a quality which I'm not directly pursuing now, but I still am a little bit where like in performance you want to be Like I was never a drinker and now I will have like a glass of wine but I was never a drinker. But I wanted to be like, like 100% drunk like, like, Bacchus style, drunk living and 100% analytical and sober at the same time, we're just like Diane Nicean release, and total analytical commitment to what was going on, which is kind of the that's kind of a that's kind of the that's kind of Moby Dick as well just like the buck and all but also so technical and so in the head, but also just like an eminent and, and I'm still that is still very appealing to me where it's like something just very powerful and spiritual and just completely unleashed, but with enough technical rigor to be comprehensible to the outside world. And then and then to produce a text that is rich enough that you can return to it like Moby like, just like like I'm i I've got a play up in New York right now that I had the music for called stereophonic has written by this playwright David Alchemy. And, and it's really great. And almost everyone I know has gone to see it as loved it. And it's amazing. But even the people that I know that I respect that haven't liked it, it's still a very richly analyzable text, like, they still can't stop talking about it. There's something that that that's very appealing to me that just like a true eruption, but that is analyzable that you can play the parts against each other. Yeah, that's that's definitely something I pursue, you
Brian Heater 46:49
use the word spiritual to describe aspects of Moby Dick and I saw your discussing reading a lot of Emily Dickinson during the pandemic and said something along the lines of kind of the, the romantic and the religious are almost inseparable in that work, you know. And you, you grew up in the church to a certain extent, is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah, very much. So. Yeah. So at this point, how would you say that spirituality plays a role and is present in the work you make, and how much of that is a conscious decision?
Will Butler 47:29
I mean, the way I talk about it is just like, my big ol monkey brain relates to it this way, like my big old monkey brain gets the gets the feelies when this happens, and it's probably just my monkey brain, but like, that's just how my body and what feels like my spirit response to this, and that it responds. You know, and it's still fundamentally like, like, even in this world of fact, checking and whatever, like, we're still just fundamentally going on our gut when we decide when something is true, or like, it is fundamentally like, oh, I believe it. Like, it's not like Einstein is. The reason I believe Einstein is because like, fundamentally, at some level, I'm just like, okay, sure, I'll go with that.
Brian Heater 48:17
You can't be an expert in everything. And to certain extent, you have to trust the experts in those things. But it's a decision of who to trust and why.
Will Butler 48:26
And to me, those decisions, for lack of a better word, are fundamentally spiritual, when you're just deciding what is true. You're like, this is true, and this isn't true. And then when you're making art. The inputs are probably from my childhood, and the inputs are from the culture around me, and the inputs are flawed, and they're very contingent, but still, when I'm making a song, it's still like, Does this feel true to this feel not true? Does this feel transcendent? Does this not feel transcendent? And like, when I'm away from the process, you can, like, definitely analyze it. And you can, it's, it's very easy to, to, to, to figure out, what adds up all the vectors as to why you feel that way. But in the moment, you kind of have to, like give into your monkey brain and be like, this is true. And that, to me, is the you know, very flawed, spiritual core of what I'm doing. It's like, is this true? Is this not true? Is this true? Is this not true? Like that's and it's not actually in my heart, it's here and it's whatever I was reading and it's whatever my parents told me and I was seven and they accidentally believed was true, but it nevertheless it remains that I have some response to it, and so might as well, that's all I got, so I gotta go with it. A little bit.