With a name borrowed from the Get Up Kids’ second EP, Red Letter Days finds front man Matt Pryor delving deep into personal stories. The memoir was adapted – in part – from the musician’s journals, beginning with his childhood diabetes diagnoses, through his musical journey. Formed in Kansas in the mid-90s, the Get Up Kids went on to become one of the most influential acts of emo’s second wave (referred to as the tongue-in-cheek “e-word” throughout). Pryor joins us to discuss his musical life, personal struggles and the act of getting it all down on paper.
Matt Pryor 0:00
Notice I don't I don't think I started writing it until right around the time things started opening up again. It was just, it's something that I've always wanted to try to do. And actually don't think the pandemic, that free time, I actually didn't do a whole lot with my, that's not true. I did a lot of cooking and drinking during lockdown. And I didn't really start writing the book until 2021. Like, right around the time that we started playing shows, again, in the fall of that year, right around the time delta started, all these shows got booked. All these shows got booked in May of 2021. And then we went out in like, August, September and right when delta hit and so you know, it was one of those things where like, if you sold 100, tickets, maybe 60, people would show up, you know, and they wouldn't ask for a refund or anything, either, they just wouldn't feel comfortable going. I
Brian Heater 1:07
wonder how much of that is a product of sort of having to be in that creative mindset, the fact that the writing of the book and the touring coincided with one another.
Matt Pryor 1:18
I don't think so. Because I don't think touring is a very creative process, it's a it's more of a, you know, it's a it's, it's just a completely different, because you're really doing the same thing over and over and over again. You know, you're you're being creative as far as like, where you want to go eat, and what you wanted what you want to maybe do with your time off, but for the most part, you're playing the same songs every night. And you're, I guess, if you were a jam band, it would be a more creative process, or a jazz player.
Brian Heater 1:50
Let me restate a creative isn't the right word. But I just mean in terms of sort of, I don't know like how much you compartmentalize your your work life and your home life?
Matt Pryor 1:59
Well, I would go even further, I have to compartmentalize my work life at home. Differently than my work life on tour. Because my work life on tour. I'm completely separate from being at home. But there's also less free time to do creative things. Because you have to, you know, do your tour stuff. Play shows and whatnot, how did you manage to fit it in, I just wrote 1000 words a day, just consistently, kind of made it kind of in the same way of like getting up every morning and going for going to the gym or doing whatever it is that you do every day for your own mental health, I would go and, and right. And then it got to the point where it was like actually really fun to do. So then it wasn't even like, once I, you know, initially when I started doing it, it was like, Okay, I got to start starting to the hardest part. Whether you're making a record, or apparently a book I've learned, did you
Brian Heater 3:06
find that it had a marked impact on your mental health?
Matt Pryor 3:12
I yeah, I mean, it's sort of like, you know, scratch the creative itch that the same sort of feeling that songwriting does for me, in kind of a new kind of a new way, like discovering a new. I don't know what a good metaphor for that would be, like, you know, if you like really like cooking and you discover a new recipe that you enjoy making, or something like that, you know, like it was it was the same sort of muscle memory, but just with a different outlet.
Brian Heater 3:44
It sounds like something that you had been thinking about for some time.
Matt Pryor 3:49
Yeah, I mean, I kind of in the same way of like doing a podcast where I was just sort of, like, I have a lot of stories, because it's sort of a weird, sort of unique life. And job. And I found that like, in relaying those stories to people who don't tour that they, you know, think that that they're interesting. So I just thought I should write these down. And in the, you know, when I was doing podcasts, it was like, oh, I should just tell these stories.
Brian Heater 4:20
Is it this sort of thing that feels like unique and remarkable as you're going through it? Or do you do you need that kind of outside reminder that not everybody lives this kind of life?
Matt Pryor 4:29
Oh, I'm pretty aware that it's a pretty uncommon job. You know, even in trying to relate it to people as far as like, this is what I do for a living and these are the struggles that I have with it. These are the good things I that are you know the positives about it, but it's not all roses. People still don't think I have a job. Even it's one of those things where like somebody said once Time that like, if you're going to be in a creative field, you're going to work really, really hard for something that everyone else is going to think that you did, because you're lazy.
Brian Heater 5:08
I saw somewhere you describing it as being a mid level touring band. And it's that position where, you know, random people that you encounter on the street might not know the band's and unless you're, like Taylor Swift, I think people have difficulty imagining that anybody could possibly do this for a living.
Matt Pryor 5:29
Yeah, I mean, I don't think people realize that, like, you know, club level touring is something that, you know, it's, it's sort of like, the music industry equivalent of like factory work. You know, like, it's, it's a lot of work. And it's a, it's a good, it's a good job. But it's it is a lot of work. And it doesn't, you know, I get a little annoyed when people casually throw around terms like rock star and stuff like that, which I think is really annoying. Because it's just like, No, I work hard and play in clubs, you know, like, I don't, I don't fly in a private jet to every show. You know what I mean? Like, and even the people who do work really hard what they do, I mean, look at, you know, the clips of Taylor Swift and Brazil during that heatwave where she's like, beet red on stage and almost passed out. I mean, that's, that's real work, you know, not
Brian Heater 6:31
to be too much of a downer, but somebody died. It shows because of a lack of water. It happens. Yeah, were you. So you've been a journaler? Or journaler? Is that the right word? You've kept a journal for a long time. Off and on? Yeah. When did that start for you? Probably
Matt Pryor 6:49
when I was a teenager, you know, you're kind of like, angry, angry poetry phase of being 16. And I kind of, I can't really journal on tour, there's just not a lot of privacy to do it. So it tends to be something that I do at home. And so for a lot of years, I didn't do it, because I was touring so much. The, you know, it's something that I, I really, again, started doing it in the last in the last nine months or so, when I quit drinking, I started journaling, again every day. So it's part of my recovery,
Brian Heater 7:34
the times when the most interesting things are happening, or the times where you don't have time to write about that. Yeah,
Matt Pryor 7:41
but that was part of the thing, too, is like, you know, wanting to write them down, while they're still memories that I can, you know, call upon, you know, like, I'm sure at some point, I won't be able to articulate these things. And so I would like to have a document of them so that they're not forgotten.
Brian Heater 8:03
I mean, I found that the pandemic, partially the pandemic, or partially like getting COVID, a few times have handled just like horrible impact on my, my, my short and long term memory. I don't know if you've experienced anything like that.
Matt Pryor 8:16
No, lately, it's just been a lot of like, some things during the last few. I don't know how long. The last bit of my drinking career is a little hazy. Before I, you know, so like, things come up now, where I'm just like, I don't remember that. And they're like, you don't remember that. And I'm like, No, I used to drink a lot. When
Brian Heater 8:41
we were discussing the things that you did, during the pandemic, that one of them was very productive. I think I think cooking is like very productive and good for your mental health and good for your family life and all these things. And then the other. The other thing was drinking. So you got you just got to the point where it wasn't healthy anymore.
Matt Pryor 9:02
Yeah, I mean, I basically drank myself into the hospital. So you know, my, my privileges have been revoked. I'm not allowed to drink anymore. By my own by my own, you know, authority, you revoked
Brian Heater 9:19
your own privileges, I
Matt Pryor 9:20
revoked my own privileges.
Brian Heater 9:22
Was that a difficult process to give it up? I mean, I stopped drinking before the pandemic about a year or two before and there were times when I felt like it was great timing. And there were other times where I felt like it was it was terrible timing. Well, I
Matt Pryor 9:37
mean, there's never a good time to do it. You know, there's never like a time in your life when you're just like, Oh, I've got all this free time. If anything, the free time was the worst part of it. For me, it was just a matter of being able to sleep, because I would always I was scared of like trying to go to bed at night. But um, you know, I got through that. And now I sleep like a baby Even on a tour bus, which it didn't used to,
Brian Heater 10:02
I used to drink like a glass of whiskey sometimes before bed and I, I found it was never really good sleep. No, it's very fitful. Yeah.
Matt Pryor 10:13
I mean, unless you unless you just completely passed out, and then you're not sleeping, either you're just not awake.
Brian Heater 10:20
When you make a lifestyle change like that. How do you end up filling those those holes in your free time?
Matt Pryor 10:27
Well, routines very important. You know, I'm in a recovery program, I go to meetings and stuff, I tried to exercise every day, I journal, I cook a lot, and, you know, write a lot and garden when I can, when it's not fucking dreary out. But, you know, I walk a lot, honestly, like, we just got a new dog. And so I've been walking her like, quite a bit. And, you know, it's just a matter of like, it's just way it's way more productive. You know what I mean? Like, it's just okay. Even if I'm not doing anything, I just feel more like present in what the things that I am doing. I
Brian Heater 11:15
found over the last few years that I really reconnected with walking, you know, it's if you know, if you are able to obviously not everybody's able to walk. But if you are able to walk, it's something that you tend to take for granted, because we do it to get from point A to point B, but really putting myself in a place where there was nothing. Well, being put in a place where there's nothing else to do all day, and kind of just aimlessly walking around. It's, it's wonderful. That's
Matt Pryor 11:43
what I kind of started doing during lockdown as I would go on these like, two hour, three hour walks, and just listen to books on tape, or podcasts or something. And I just, I just really enjoyed it. And now it's kind of my thing to do. On Tour, just to like, go on a walk about just get up in the morning and just go on a walk about and sort of, you know, spent two hours just sort of exploring the city that you're in, and then you know, kind of makes you appreciate just coming back to the club and having a place to like lay down.
Brian Heater 12:20
During those times when you were really in the heat of touring. When you were pretty consistently touring. You didn't really take the time to discover the cities as much.
Matt Pryor 12:33
It's Yes, and no, I mean, you know, in Van touring early on, you just don't have time because you're spending your whole day driving. And so you end up getting to the club. Like, you know, I've been all over the world. And I've seen airports, vehicles, highways, gas stations, and clubs, and hotels, and sometimes bars. And, you know, it's only if you have like, like you can't really get to know, however many times you go to a city, you can't really get to know it unless you have like time, you know, to explore it. And so, like, we went to South America, and it was like I was in, you know, Argentina for 18 hours. And eight of those were asleep. You know, and six of them were at a show. So it was like there was no time, you know, to go explore the city. So it's like I've been there, but I haven't really been there, you know? So I tried to make an effort. The first time that we toured in Europe, it was really instilled in us to like, go wander, like no matter how tired we were. And then eventually you get to a point over there. I call it cathedral burnout, where you're just like, yes, this place is beautiful. I don't want to walk around anymore.
Brian Heater 14:02
There's also just that practical fact of if you're drinking, that often means that you like are up early in the morning and don't have that well explore. Yeah,
Matt Pryor 14:12
there's a couple of times in Europe where we we've been on these kind of IKANO it's kind of like a cross between a really large like sort of like an airplane airport shuttle bus with bunks in it. And so you can't really sleep in it. So it would sort of be like you'd be up all night driving and then sleep all day because you just couldn't sleep at night and that's just no way to live. Then certainly no way to go see a city one
Brian Heater 14:39
of my initial fears or not fears one of my initial concerns when I decided I was going to stop drinking was I live in I live in New York and here you know so much of obviously this applies to a lot of places but so much of the socialization happens around bars and you know, happens with people drinking and it's a great Uh, you know, I'm a fairly introverted person, it's a great social social lubricant. And I was, I was a little afraid that I would be losing, like a significant aspect of socializing with other humans, and you've got this job that requires you to, to be in bars.
Matt Pryor 15:19
Yeah. So it's, it's a big part of sort of the discussion. You know, I mean, in recovery, it's sort of, like, the idea of going on tour is not not the best job to have, you know, unless you're gonna go play in churches or some shit, you know, like, it's, you know, I have to work and I have to work around alcohol. And so it's, it's been less of a problem being around it in bars, and more than I just need to have my own space away from it. So like, the last tour we did, we had the tour bus be a sober space. And then, you know, if the guys wanted to drink, they would just hang out in the dressing room. And if I felt comfortable being in there, I would, and if I didn't, I would go on the bus or go on a walk or something like that. And so it's a bit of a separation of church and state. But it seems to work pretty well. I just have to sometimes go to bed before everybody comes home, if they go out,
Brian Heater 16:32
a lot of musicians that I talked to you that have been through the program and tour, find it useful to find meetings in the area
Matt Pryor 16:41
is Yeah, and I did that a lot as well, as well as like zoom, zoom meetings and stuff, which you can do a lot of the tour that we were just on was in like Amphitheatre, so they were kind of like, you know, out in the outside of the city. So there weren't a lot of meetings that work like close by, and I didn't really want to pay a $70 Uber ride to go sit in the church basement for an hour. So zoom meetings were very, very helpful. Alcohol
Brian Heater 17:07
had previously been a big part of my ability to talk to people and engage people in conversation. And I've spoken to a lot of musicians who used it, or continue to use it as a way of, you know, getting over anxieties, or even like performing live was it was drinking a part of that process for you previously?
Matt Pryor 17:32
No, I mean, in the sense of like having stage fright or something like that, no. Because I think I probably got my first 10,000 hours of touring before I ever drink at all. I was a little nervous about it, it had become such a big part of my life that when I, the first time I played a show sober earlier this year, I was a little anxious about that, but it was fine. You know, I have found that like, when I would drink, it would exacerbate my anxiety and my depression. More than it had more than being sober has an because I do suffer from both of those things. But like, you know, I found that like, I feel more comfortable just being myself. And sometimes that means I just don't want to be around people who are drinking. And I think I didn't know that about myself because I was like drinking in order to be in a social situation that I didn't necessarily want to be in the SEC, I was like, trying to make a party I didn't want to be at more tolerable by drinking. And in fact, I was just kind of making myself worse, you know. And so now I just try to only spend time at the parties to use that metaphor that I want to be at, you know, and not engage in things that I'm not interested in doing. And you know, I really like performing and I really like being with my friends but you know, we tend to hang out more before the show then after these days because they have different stuff that they want to do
Brian Heater 19:26
one of the most remarkable things about the band is like how consistent the lineup has been basically since the beginning and you all seem to still like each
Matt Pryor 19:36
other for the most part yeah.
Brian Heater 19:39
I mean obviously any any relationship any like sibling like relationship,
Matt Pryor 19:43
we just lost our tour bus so I don't know maybe we'll we'll kill each other on this one. I
Brian Heater 19:48
always say that like the best way to test a new relationship is when a relationship is to move in with somebody and like the best way to test whether or not you should be in a band with somebody is that you just like jam yourself into a van with them for several hours at a time.
Matt Pryor 20:01
I mean, that'll that'll, you know, make the decision for you. You know, it's, it's, uh, you know, I've been married for 23 years, and it's being in a band this long is very similar in that it evolves. So like the really, you know, and like, sometimes, you know, you're still pissed about something that happened 20 years ago, and it doesn't really, whether you're in a marriage, or you're in a band, like, you have to, like work through that and find a way to, like, you know, have the relationship that you have in the present, and not just hold on to resentments from the past. And learn how to be around each other and learn how to, like, enjoy being around each other, as the people you are in your 40s, as opposed to the people you were in your 20s Do
Brian Heater 20:52
you find that it's gotten easier or harder to maintain those relationships, bad relationships specifically, for
Matt Pryor 21:00
me, in the last nine months, it's been easier, because I've been better at communicating, just because that's part of the part of the recovery process is to sort of like, you know, not bottle it up. And so I just, you know, even today, when it's just like, alright, if we're going to end up having to take advantage on this, we need to be very aware that there needs to be, we needed to discuss what the sober protocols are. Because I need to have, you know, a space that I, you guys need to have a space to drink, and I need to have a space to not be around people who are drinking. And if those things can coexist, then we can, you know, go on tour, and if they can't, then we have a problem. So everybody's been receptive to that, because they know this is what I need to not die.
Brian Heater 21:57
This may be a bit of a reach, but the book opens on your discovery that you're diabetic. And obviously, that's a defining part of your life as it is anybody else's life and especially a life at a job that requires you to be on on the road all the time was that you know, prior to this sort of, like new life of not drinking was that. I don't know what's what was that? Was that a differentiator for you? Do you feel like that kind of like made you that your touring experience was was different from others, because of this aspect of your life?
Matt Pryor 22:33
Yes, but I didn't want anyone to, like, like, I've gone on tour with people for weeks at a time who did not know I was diabetic. And it wouldn't be unless I had an emergency situation that they would even, you know, it would even come up. And I think that that comes from, and I don't think I realized it until I wrote it in the book that like I decided very early on that this was my thing, and I was going to deal with it. And I wasn't going to take any pity for it. And I wasn't going to like do anything different, you know, than anybody else. And I could do whatever I wanted to do. And so consequently, I think that everybody kind of forgets it. Sometimes. I'm more open about it now. But you know it, if I look back on it, it's sort of like, yeah, taking 150 syringes to Europe with me, is weird. It just sort of like, it's, you know, and then I didn't want to throw them away, because I didn't want to like, they weren't like biohazard. You know, containers in rock clubs. So I just came home, after six weeks in Europe with a backpack full of used syringes, and had to explain to customs and immigration. That yes, I had been to Eastern Europe and Amsterdam, but I,
Brian Heater 24:06
and yes, I'm in a rock band, and I'm in a rock
Matt Pryor 24:09
band. But I'm not a junkie. You know,
Brian Heater 24:11
there was a funny moment in the book where you're, I can't remember what the venue is. But you're talking about shooting up backstage at the venue.
Matt Pryor 24:19
Yeah, that was at the whisky in LA. It was just like, well, plenty of people have shot up back here. But for very different reasons.
Brian Heater 24:29
Yeah, I mean, I wonder if there's another parallel to in between sobriety and being diabetic and that and I'm saying this to somebody here, like obviously, we spent a lot of time during this conversation talking about it, but these are things that you that you live with, but you don't necessarily want to define you as a person. Right.
Matt Pryor 24:48
Yeah, I think that's true. You know, it's but at the same time, I think that what I maybe did is a self defense mechanism that I'm trying to like, not do now is I wasn't very open about it, the diabetes and stuff and I'm trying to be more open about that, and about the sobriety and about, you know, mental health stuff, because I think and I kind of like bought into it, that there's a sort of like, you're sort of like, I think, especially in this line of work, you're sort of like, projecting an image. And I think part of that image is to not, you're not allowed to complain about anything. You know, what I mean? Like, you're not allowed to, to say, like, Oh, this is a difficult, you know, I mean, honestly, like, sleeping on the floor of a van, is kind of a rough way to live. And people are still like, oh, isn't that so cool. And it's just sort of like, well, you know, for the 90 minutes you're onstage and people are singing along, it's awesome. When you have to drive all night and drink coffee at five in the morning at a gas station that's been on a burner for 12 hours, then it's less, it's less, you know, glamorous. But there's a stigma about complaining about it,
Brian Heater 26:13
I fully understand that, you know, I know that. And I, myself, try to be mindful of the fact that like, I do think that I'm lucky that I get to do you know, that I get to travel around for work, and that I get to, you know, meet all these interesting people. And I have a sense of guilt around complaining, because I know that like, most jobs in the world are harder than mine. The only people that ultimately you really can complain to are people who do the same thing as you,
Matt Pryor 26:44
or something similar, you know, comedians, oftentimes, people in the restaurant industry, I find a kinship with.
It's sort of like, I think it's because it's mercenary work. It's just sort of like, you know, you're serving people, whether you're performing or you're cooking, or whatever, you're, you're still kind of at the mercy of the of the patron. And, you know, it's sort of this, it allows for a certain type of anti establishment sort of personality. Like you can have neck tattoos and work in a kitchen and be in a band. Maybe you can't be an accountant. Maybe you can, I don't know,
Brian Heater 27:36
I don't want to put too fine a point on it. But you know, the, there is some irony in playing the E word as you keep calling it in the book and not and feeling like you can't like properly express your mental health issues or your feelings? Well, I
Matt Pryor 27:56
don't think that, yes, I think that like the younger generation of people in that, in that scene are more adept at it. I think that like I didn't have the tools to admit it to myself, let alone be open with it publicly. Like I didn't even know it was a problem, which is how I ended up drinking too much because I wasn't dealing with it. I was self medicating in order to deal with with that stuff. But I do think that there's a lot more for like my kids, generation of musician, it's a lot more open to talk about, like it's a lot more accepted to talk about, like mental health stuff.
Brian Heater 28:44
And I think even like, you know, our generation I do think people are getting are getting better at it. There's less of a stigma. Yeah, it's a stigma. There's a stigma to not being in therapy at this point, I've noticed.
Matt Pryor 28:56
Well, depends who you ask. I live in Kansas. So how much
Brian Heater 29:00
of that that process of self discovery, how much of it was really just sort of like going back and reconnecting with the journals.
Matt Pryor 29:10
I mean, you know, it's kind of a nice thing to be able to like, like last year, and that we're getting ready to do it again. Next year, go out, we went and did a tour of our we played our first album, which was 25 years old. And you know, when we made that record, I was 20 years old. And, you know, you can go back and listen to it and learn how to play it again. But you can't really adapt it at all to your current self. And so it was kind of nice to be able to, like take these stories and the perspective of someone who was a teenager but to be able to like, look at it with a certain amount of like, adult kind of
Brian Heater 30:01
perspective. Yeah, perspective, I
Matt Pryor 30:03
was gonna say wisdom and I felt stupid saying wisdom, but just that, like, you know, the book is supposed to be written from the perspective of who I was at that time. But it's what it's a lot more articulate than it would have been if I had actually just published journals from when I was 20 years old. You know what I mean? I
Brian Heater 30:27
do, but I think it's, I think it's effective in that in the sense that I didn't realize it was, you know, effectively based on journals. I hadn't read that before I started to read the book. And it is, I think it is written in a very immediate way, I wouldn't I would describe the book it, you know, in some ways as being journal light, because of that.
Matt Pryor 30:50
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, I guess, it's, it's sort of like, it's inspired by journals. It's not like word for word. Like, you know, it's not photocopies of of my, my journals from high school. You know, it's, it's, but it is a lot of like, things that I was thinking about and writing about at the time, I
Brian Heater 31:13
was talking to somebody recently about the way people mostly unconsciously evolve their stories over time. Like sometimes you'll like complete people combined people because it makes a story easier, you'll you'll change certain details. And in your mind that light, that becomes the story. I'm curious, see stories, as you, as you said that you've told, you know, people a million times whether going back and reading something that was written as they were happening gave you like an entirely different perspective on the events.
Matt Pryor 31:50
Not in not necessarily in writing it. I think, in thinking back on some of those things, I have different perspectives than I did at the time. And I tried to be cognizant of that, of just like, trying to give an example like, the way that I feel about the first, our first record, and the label we were on on our first record is honest, the way it's written in the book, it's not necessarily how I feel like I'm not still super pissed at them even I mean, like I've kind of and so, but I didn't want to like write from that person, about that particular topic. I didn't want to write about it from like, how I feel. Now, I wanted to try and remember how I felt then. But yeah, less so in this book. But like, you know, I've done different things where like, I did a podcast a couple of years ago, a year ago, that was a history of vagrant records. And when we would talk about, you know, I would end up talking to different people in my band or other bands, like different band members, but asking them the same questions about the same story, and getting different answers for the way this including my own bandmates, who remembered things differently than how I remembered them. And so I kind of thought about that when this book was coming out. And I have just decided that I'm entirely sure that I got some of this wrong. But if they want to correct me, they can put out their own fucking book.
Brian Heater 33:32
There was no you get to read this before it's published privileges with the band. No. What about the wife?
Matt Pryor 33:39
She hasn't read it? She doesn't want to read it.
Brian Heater 33:41
She's worried. What's her concern?
Matt Pryor 33:46
Well, I like I was writing it when I was in that I wrote it when I was in the depths of my drinking. And so it's not a happy time for her. So there was a lot of like, you know, I'm going off to go work on my book. It's like, well, I'm going off to go to the bar, I've got to work on my book, but I'm gonna go have some some beers too. So she, she's also she's in the process of getting her PhD. So she doesn't really have time to read my stupid book
Brian Heater 34:19
was the drinking, the increase in the drinking and the writing of the book? Is there a way in which the two are connected? Yeah,
Matt Pryor 34:24
finishing the book. Fuck me up. Because I think when I finished the book, I started having these sort of like, a bit of a identity crisis in regards to like, you know, I had written all this stuff about how driven unsure of myself and then ultimately successful I was when I was younger. And then I was kind of having this thing of like, Oh, who am I now? What am I doing as an adult and it wasn't like a midlife crisis. Like I didn't like go out and buy a convertible or anything, but it was sort of a, I felt really unsure of myself. And I think I think that increased the amount I was self medicating, in order to sort of like, attempt to deal with that, as opposed to just actually dealing with it, which is what I've been doing the last nine months, you're
Brian Heater 35:22
in a relatively unique position in that, like, how many of us in life have had the same job since we were teenagers?
Matt Pryor 35:31
Well, and even more, so how many of us have had the same job that you were teenagers, and everyone thinks that your best work was when you were 19? Or not everyone, but like, certain people will consistently say that, like, you know, I only liked the first to get a kid's records, it's just like, well, then you're not really given the rest of it a chance. You know,
Brian Heater 35:51
as a music fan, though, I wonder if there's a level in which you can relate to that in that, like, obviously, you were a teenager, at the time, the listeners were teenagers at the time, and people have a close Connection to, oh,
Matt Pryor 36:10
don't get me wrong, I don't fault anybody for that. That's not there. I definitely relate to that. And I feel that way about other artists, but it's just sort of like, when you're the creator, you know, when you're the insider looking out, it's, it doesn't make you feel terribly good about yourself. You start to kind of feel like, you know, that high school football player who's just always talking about the big game from when they were younger, and they don't, they don't have any appreciation for what they're doing now. And, you know, you have to find that balance as an individual of like, I'm happy doing what I'm doing now. And I also celebrate the things that I did when I was 22. But if all I did was sing was pretend to be 22 I would be a miserable person. I think anybody would be you know,
Brian Heater 37:04
there aren't a lot of blueprints for Aging Gracefully in this business.
Matt Pryor 37:11
Not rock and roll. No. I think if you're a country singer, you can you can get older, although I don't know maybe not a modern country singer. I think maybe like Americana, you can be old and play folk music,
Brian Heater 37:26
there are a handful, like I had Niccolo on the show. And I feel like there are there are a handful of people you can point to that really stuck the landing on that, but and maybe be grateful that you're just having this conversation with some of the other day, I guess, be grateful that you're not in hip hop? Because like, Are there any examples in hip hop of people? Aging Gracefully?
Matt Pryor 37:46
Well, yeah, I mean, ll the Beastie Boys, anybody from that kind of generation? You know?
You know, I think that like, Yeah, I think there's examples of it, I just think that like,
rock and roll popular music is a young man's game, or a young person's game, you know, and it's sort of like, you know, it's like a shiny new toy, you know, what I mean? And it just sort of like, you know, I'd rather I'd rather be, you know, a workhorse of a utility, you know, then then be some, like, flashy new thing,
Brian Heater 38:28
I was having this conversation with somebody recently, because of the Andre 3000. And I feel like if I feel like you found a life hack of just, you know, do something entirely different than the thing that defined you when you were younger?
Matt Pryor 38:40
Yeah, but I mean, I can say, from experience, whenever you make a change like that, you you do have to accept the fact that some people aren't going to get it. And they're going to, you know, and they're going to make fun of you for it. And that's it. Ultimately, you have to make that decision as an as a creator as an artist to do. Like, if you're, if you're making art for other people, ultimately, you're, you're not being true to yourself. And so, you sometimes you have to make that decision of like, what's more important to you being true to yourself for being doing what other people want you to do, you know, and luckily, in his situation, he's got enough he doesn't ever have to make music ever again, you know, if he doesn't want to, he's not like, dependent on that to make a living. So he can do stuff like that, and people are interested in it. And like, from what I've heard of it sounds cool. Like it's it is cool. It's it's not it's it will serve a completely different purpose than bombs over Baghdad, but, you know, maybe I'll listen to it when I'm meditating. You know, what I mean? Like, was just something that's a big part of my life, too. So, so far, what I've heard of it, I thought was, I thought it was pretty dope and like, you know, more respected for it. Yeah,
Brian Heater 39:59
I know. As I was, I was listening to it or reading yesterday, it's a good, it's good, um, to read to when, at what point did meditation become a part of your process,
Matt Pryor 40:08
I started doing it a couple of years ago, mainly as a blood pressure hack. Because my, my blood pressure was kind of high. And so that was one of the things that they were like, you know, it's sort of like you can get on more and more pills. But just kind of like, you know, lose some weight, try meditating. So it would be this thing of like, alright, so I'd have to like check my blood pressure at home. So this is something I learned from Penn Jillette book, when he lost a bunch of weight that you like, I would go exercise, then take a really hot shower, then meditate for 10 minutes, and then take my blood pressure. So I was about as calm as I possibly could be. But then, you know, in. And then it became sort of a thing to deal with being on tour, when I would get stressed out. To sort of like recenter, myself, and then in recovery, it's become a big, it's a daily, it's become like a at least once a day, like daily practice.
Brian Heater 41:18
It finally stuck with me during the pandemic, after years of trying it, it is not, it is not an easy thing to do.
Matt Pryor 41:26
Well, I don't think it's any harder than anything else. It's just like, it like takes a while to like, start. And then eventually, one day, it just kind of clicks, you know, and it just so and then it's like, oh, okay, so the point of this is just to be calm, you know, just like, that's it. It's just kind of like, but what are you going to do when you're calm and like nothing, you're just going to be calm.
Brian Heater 41:50
It's simultaneously like hopeful and annoying, when you realize that there's no right way to do something, I
Matt Pryor 41:56
find it liberating actually. Because, you know, it's a, it's a concept, you have to get your head around. And I think it's something that like happens in recovery to have just like, you never finish. Being a sober person, you know, you never, you never finish yoga. You never finish meditation, you know, you just, it's the process. And there's something that's really like liberating about that. And if you then apply that to your career as a creative person, then it's just sort of like, okay, so this is I don't, I've never really done with this until I'm dead. And then apparently, even then I'm not done with it. Because, you know, as we learned from this new Beatle song, like, someone will just find on my find my voice memos and make, make, you know, music out of my grocery list or whatever, in
Brian Heater 42:53
terms of going back and playing that first album. I mean, how much of it do you still relate to at this point in your life,
Matt Pryor 43:00
some of it more than others. I mean, you know, a lot of it's written from a perspective of someone who was kind of scared of, of becoming an adult. And I still remember what that feels like. And I think I'm more annoyed about being an adult than I am scared of it at this point, whenever it just like, like right now, like, at some point tonight, I need to start going over our, you know, medical insurance stuff for next year, which doesn't sound fun, or, or taxes or anything like that. But it's just sort of like I definitely relate to that. The problem is, is that sometimes I think there's a song on that record called Michelle with one L that sort of written about my wife, who was then my girlfriend, and it's kind of needy and codependent and I don't really enjoy playing it because it's it. I think its intention was to sound loving, but it comes across as like really possessive. I think. And I don't, I don't, I'm not that person anymore. And I don't want to be that person anymore. So then having to like sit in that and play it and the songs like seven fucking minutes long. So it just takes forever to play that you know, it that's my least favorite song. To play on that record.
Brian Heater 44:28
That's a big defining characteristic of the book is sort of coming to grips with that codependence. Yeah.
Matt Pryor 44:37
Yeah, I don't know. That's, that's a part of it that like I haven't really thought about a whole lot since I wrote it. But yeah, it's something that's very much like a part of like, you know, just recognizing that like, I was a very controlling person. And I think it's my it's my default and the Uh, you know, it's something that I tried to manage better, and not be like that
Brian Heater 45:08
before, when you were discussing this process of, I guess, you know, comparing the stuff that you did in the early days. So what you're doing now, and I guess the struggle that you had kind of toward the end of the book, the questions that you asked are, who am I now? What am I doing? Do you feel like you've got a better grasp? On those questions? Yes.
Matt Pryor 45:31
And I don't think I really did when I finished the book, which is why it kind of fucked me up. But, uh, you know, in the last, really, in the last nine months, since I quit drinking, I've done a lot of like, sort of self exploring, and just sort of like, figuring out like, who I am, and I actually feel a lot more. Like I keep finding all these parallels between, like, the person in the book up until the very end is very sure of themselves, and like, had a vision of what they wanted. And the problem is, is that I kind of got what I wanted, and then didn't know what I wanted after that. And now I feel a lot more akin to that person in that I know what I, I know what I want and who I want to be. And, you know, I'm not trying to pretend to be something or force myself to be something that I'm not really that interested in. And so I feel a lot more comfortable in my own skin. Now.