Magick Show bills itself as a “masterclass in modern occultism.” It’s hard to argue with the tagline. Richard Metzger is in his element interviewing dozens of experts on different aspects of the occult, in a bid to contextualize the centuries-old phenomenon for the modern moment. Metzger is the man for the job. At the turn of the century, he served as the host of UK interview show, Disinformation. The series gave rise to his first book, Disinformation: The Interviews, followed soon after by The Book of Lies: The Disinformation Guide to Magick and the Occult. For the past decade-and-a-half, Metzger has served as the cofounder and editor-in-chief of culture blog, Dangerous Minds.
Richard Metzger 0:12
The device, I should say, that we used to shoot. This was something similar to the enteritron that Errol Morris uses so people were able to look directly into my I think it's called a sight line. I believe that's what the device is called. Maybe I'm wrong, but what what happens is, is that my eyes would appear over the lens of the camera. And it's weird too, because it looks like your your eyes are sort of shifted over from your face right. This one slice of your face is like to the left or to the right, and so people, they feel like they're making eye contact with you, and so it's a much more intimate connection. But yeah, no, I definitely do.
Brian Heater 0:46
Is that a widely available technology? I not actually seen that in practice a lot.
Richard Metzger 0:50
Yeah, it's, I It's, I don't think a lot of people know about it, but yes, it is a device that you can buy for, I think, $1,000
Brian Heater 0:58
that's actually not bad.
Richard Metzger 0:59
Oh no, it's fantastic. It's extremely easy to use. You unfold it from the case, you put it on your tripod, you put the camera on top of that, you are good to go. It uses mirrors
Brian Heater 1:10
right up until, you know, March 2020 I think I probably did my last interview in March 2020 in person. And then obviously we were forced to do all these virtually. I used to refuse to do things over zoom, because it was so important for me to sit down and be in front of somebody. Obviously, given my resources and everything else, it's a lot easier to to do it this way, but it wasn't, and I think a lot of this is because we were forced to do this throughout the pandemic, but it wasn't as difficult of a shift as I thought it might have been initially.
Richard Metzger 1:51
Yeah, I find it seems like a perfectly natural thing to do, and did seem that way from the beginning. So, but I mean, I appreciate what you're saying. Also, there's a level of like you have a certain intimacy that you don't have in person, in a strange way, because we're both looking at each other through this device, and it's mediated, and we have headphones on, so we are really concentrating on what we're saying.
Brian Heater 2:12
To actually sort of travel around, you did this in three cities, and to go meet people, there's you must have the sense that there's something that you can perhaps get out of somebody conversationally that you wouldn't be able to otherwise,
Richard Metzger 2:29
getting it, getting from them in
Unknown Speaker 2:30
person, in person.
Richard Metzger 2:31
Oh yeah, of course. I mean, especially with the cult stuff, you have to, you know, it's you're, I mean, I'm asking people to express on camera, some you know, for the most part, probably privately held belief you know something that they're not necessarily talking about with their co workers or their neighbors or even many of their friends, really. And so that that level of trust has to be established. And I think that that's easier to do in person than when you sort of crash land into a zoom call. I imagine
Brian Heater 3:00
that every person that you spoke to for this project is putting that information out there in some way, right? And they have some sort of, whether it's internet presence or they're writing books, what does that disconnect, where somebody feels like, you know, in some sense, they can be sort of very public about this information and probably reach more people than you would day to day, but that you can't really have that kind of conversation with the person next door.
Richard Metzger 3:25
Well, I think these people have the courage of their convictions, you know, so it doesn't I think it doesn't feel as controversial to them as it might seem to other people, but it's actually, you'd be surprised at how many people turned me down because they've written their books, or they under a pseudonym, or they do their podcast and it's audio only, and they do it under a different name because they have a corporate job or a government job that they don't want to risk. That's, that's a was a common response to, Hey, would you like to be interviewed for this? You know, a lot of people did turn it
Brian Heater 4:00
down. It's less about or I don't maybe this is also the case, but it sounds like it's perhaps less about the stigma of day to day life than it is the very pragmatic decision of perhaps being unemployable for some people, Precisely,
Richard Metzger 4:15
precisely,
Brian Heater 4:17
this is such a big this is something that you've been doing for decades, and this is, this is a big part of your life, and I assume that it plays a role in probably a lot of the friendships that you have and a lot of the interactions that you have, but that people generally tend to keep these sorts of things siloed in their own lives,
Richard Metzger 4:35
for sure, for sure. And honestly, to what you just said, I don't, not all of my friends are occult next by any stretch of the imagination. I have a lot of people that I've never discussed any of this with my wife, and I don't talk about it. You know, she knows how I see the world, but she's far more, you know, more scientific, rational, hard headed sort of thinker than I am, but, but like I say, we don't discuss it, but she. She certainly understands how, how I view
Brian Heater 5:02
things, was that a source of conflict early on, not
Richard Metzger 5:05
at all, no, not at all. She, I mean, she knew coming in the door who I was.
Brian Heater 5:09
She knew she was getting herself into, so to speak, she did she did it anyways. I understand this to certain extent. I mean, I would say that I'm a pretty skeptical person about lots of different things. Perhaps a lot of people who are scientifically minded don't necessarily afford themselves that or, you know, or I suppose, won't necessarily enter that world with an open mind.
Richard Metzger 5:39
Yeah, that's true. I mean, I would say that the majority, the vast majority of, in fact, the people that I interviewed did have a fairly rational, not fairly rational, but I would say an extremely they don't come off as Kooks in any way. And I think that even, even someone who was extremely rationally minded would not look at these people and say, oh, you know they seem they believe anything, or, you know they seem kooky or something, you wouldn't think that about these people at all. You would think that they seem reasonable. And you might want to find out more about why they believe that they what they
Brian Heater 6:14
believe. How do you keep an open mind for that side of things? Well,
Richard Metzger 6:18
I mean, I Okay, I've tried to hone this message over the course of the past few weeks, and I've been doing a lot of podcasts, and this is where I've gotten to it with right? Gotten the way that I look at magic is very, I think, scientific in a sense, but at the very least, it's secular for the most part. And I'll get to the exception to that, and that is that if you look at something like Napoleon Hill's books, like Think and Grow Rich, or indeed, a lot of these sort of self help books that, you know, go back to the business, yeah, that's what I was getting to but I was gonna say, like, new thought and how new thought then becomes these business books. There's almost no certain business books are, are basically grimoires that have been sort of updated for the 20th, 20th and 21st centuries. I mean, there's, I mean, a lot of these books are almost they're the same thing. They're talking about the same, literally, the same techniques, which, in some cases in magic and also in these business self help books, is a sort of a self help Gnosis, a self hypnosis, right?
Brian Heater 7:29
I like self help Gnosis. I don't know if you just that, but that that that actually is quite accurate. It works, doesn't
Richard Metzger 7:36
it? Yeah, it works. But self hypnosis is a big part of magic. It's trying to psych yourself up for something, make something to happen that you would like to see happen,
Brian Heater 7:45
visualization.
Richard Metzger 7:47
Well, well, I wasn't even going to take it that far. I mean, I was, yeah, that's one way that you could do it. But I was, you just have to have a clear cut desire and know what you want and then understand how to get that. That's not necessarily something that that's magic, but it's also a lot of other things too. It depends on how you look at it and the way that you're orienting yourself towards the world that you live in. And I see magic as being a metaphor for creativity. And so if you look at any activity that you are doing as a kind of a spell or a spell casting, or something that you are doing because you would like to create an influence in the world, even if it just to make something better for yourself, or to make money or whatever it is. But if you start to think of things in that way, your creativity is greatly enhanced. Manifestation
Brian Heater 8:30
is that maybe a good way of putting it,
Richard Metzger 8:34
well, see, that's the thing is, you're taking it more into the New Age sort of thought that I do personally, okay, but, but, but. So all of that, right? So all of that. So that's that's push that to one side. The other side of the way that I think about this stuff is that there is you when you start doing magic, and when you start to become open to the idea of it, you, and if you go far enough into it, shall we say, you start to make contact with something or someone, or some kind of entity or something that can influence things around you, that causes synchronicities and coincidences to happen, sometimes extremely mathematically improbable coincidences to happen, and that is something that is taught like, that's, that's, I would say that that's the biggest and most important part of the Crowley system, in many ways, is, is try to get in touch with this, this, this thing, this entity, this thought form, whatever it is, this gin that will cause synchronicities to happen. Because what you were doing in magic is you're trying to make the less likely more likely. That's something that Dr Christina Oakley Harrington says in magic show, you want to make the less likely more likely. So that's a, I mean, that's as good of a definition of magic as I've ever heard. But you it. But you, once you tap into this, you. I don't know what to call it. You know, some people call it the holy guardian angel, right? And then to because it sounds so ridiculous. This
Brian Heater 10:06
sounds like where you're sort of crossing over that line from agnosticism. Well, that's what
Richard Metzger 10:11
I'm well, that's what I'm trying to say. But the thing is, is that when you already, if you had these kind of experiences, you get to a point where you have to make a decision like, okay, am I going schizophrenic? Or Did this really happen? And you have to, that's where you have to, sort of your rationality has to come into this and this. But this phenomenon, if you will, of what I'm describing, is something that if you put, you could put people into a room, and they would be able to talk to each other about this, and each one of them would know that they know what the fuck they're talking about. And there would be a conversation unlike any other, I can assure you, but it's this is becoming a common experience. And there are, there are techniques that have been written down since the 14th century of how to connect to that, that mind, that over mind, or the over soul, or whatever you want to talk to, you know, Carl Jung has written about this. I mean, this is there are people, rational, brilliant people, you know, who have talked about this kind of thing. And so, and this has become something that I think a lot of people know about, the synchronicity thing and and because of, you know, the internet, and people be able to exchange information more than they could 25 years ago, 30 years ago, it's more people know about this, you know, and, and, so, yeah, so that's, that's yes, yes,
Brian Heater 11:35
I was looking into this recently, and, and I will get into why in a second. But I noticed that Jung, did he, I think he wrote a book called synchronicities, or synchronicity. What's your sense of how he approached the subject?
Richard Metzger 11:54
Well, I mean, he's the guy who coined the term, I think, if I'm not mistaken, I mean, so, you know, it's that would be, you know, it's, it's, he observed certain things that seem to him to be very significant and to be, you know, the way that they were connected could cause significance. But, you know, and he's looking at it also from a point of view of self actualization, and, you know, dealing with patients also. So, you know, it's, are these messages from the subconscious mind? Are they from some sort of over soul? I mean, he had sort of, you know, shall we say, idiosyncratic religious beliefs that involved his own person in sort of prophecies and stuff like that. I mean, these, these things, are not widely known, but he was, again, he was the person who sort of noticed these kind of noticed these kind of things that sort of codified this idea, or one of the first to put this in writing and put this idea out into the world, it's been refined since then by other people.
Brian Heater 12:51
The way you phrased it is very interesting, as whether or not it was messages from the subconscious mind, because you know, to a certain extent, the power of these things. Are there externality from us, that these are things that we're encountering outside of us? Well,
Richard Metzger 13:08
that's the thing you have to decide. Again, am I having a schizophrenic reaction to something this stimuli, or is this really actually happening? And the thing that I noticed when I started to have a lot of these things happening to me when I was at the age of 29 was that it it took the form of someone like, literally, like fucking with my head, like joking with me, like trying to get me to notice what is going on Now, in an unmistakable way that that I could let me just back up for a second. This happened to me when I was 29 because I was taking a lot of psychedelic drugs, right? I would, I would have described myself as the it was one of the lowest points of my entire life, and I felt that I needed to do something to just detonate the log jam that was my career and my life. At that point, things were not going well for me, and so I thought, if I did something like that, and by the way, I'd also add simultaneous to this, picking up a lot of cult books, whereas that was something that I was doing throughout my teens and early 20s, but in my later, mid to later 20s, I was less focused on, but had started again to pick up a lot of occult books. And one of the things that I was reading it for the first time was Robert Anton Wilson, the cosmic trigger, and I was reading so I read that for the first time when I was about that age, so 29 so that book is kind of a guide book from a very friendly perspective of somebody who was going through more or less the same thing that was happening to me, and it was like a perfect book to have been reading at the time that this was happening. But also I was doing the drugs as well, or taking the psilocybin, and then DMT that I was smoking because of that book also. So you it was all intertwined. But the point was, is that I. That's when it started happening. For me, I supposed to notice a lot of really, really, like, unusual things that had happened and and I would start to think, like, okay, am I going nuts, or is this? Is this really going on? And so there has to be a sort of a way to test that, okay, to test, literally, test your rationality when you're doubting it, right? And so in my case, a lot of things happened in a short period of time that that were objectively true. And I could give you an example of this is I was doing, I was in a bookstore once, and I was trying to figure out, like I was really broke, right? And I was like, should I buy this book and just eat rice and beans until Thursday or or not, you know? And so I said, Oh, I'm gonna just open this book and I'm gonna put my finger on any page, at any page, at any point, the word or the phrase that is underneath my finger. If this is significant to me, then I will buy this book. Well, guess what? My last name was under my finger. My last name was under my finger. And then I thought, Oh, well, that was interesting. Let me do it a second time and see if there's a there's a part two of this message that I that it will be unmistakably significant to me. And so I did it again. I opened the book, I put my finger down, and guess what? My finger was on my date of birth. Okay, in the same book. I mean, I'm not kidding. And the thing is, I can actually show you this, because I guess we're doing an audio only thing. But this book that I'm holding up in front of the camera right now that your listeners cannot hear is that book. And I could, you know, flip through this. No, I won't, but I could flip through this and show you exactly my last name. Can
Brian Heater 16:41
you describe what the book is?
Richard Metzger 16:42
This book is a book called New it ISIS, and it is a it's, I guess it's, you would say it's like a compilation of, like, papers and articles that are related to Aleister Crowley, knew it isis right, but the thing like I say, and so that happened, right? So I don't have to wonder, is that just me, because I can pick this up 30 years later, 28 years later, and show this to you right now. You see what I'm saying
Brian Heater 17:17
is that the same copy,
Richard Metzger 17:18
this is it. That's the book correct the one that you're looking at right now. So if something like that happens to you, I think that you would be justified in saying, Okay, this is outside of me. But that's not the only example I could give you. I could give you dozens and dozens of examples just like that, and I'm talking about my name and my birthday in a book. I'm not, I mean, like, this happened. This has happened. You know what? I mean, like, there's, I mean, I could just start showing you the evidence of this. And the other thing is, a lot of these experiences that I've had have additionally had a witness, or there was another person that was involved in this who was also noticing it, or who indeed had pointed it out to me in the first place. So there was a whole spate of these things that were happening and this, but my experience is not that unique. Many people were telling me similar things that had happened to them on camera and for the magic show interviews. So I'm just trying, what I'm trying to get across to you know your listeners, is that this is not an uncommon thing. This is something that a lot of people have had experience with. They've gone through that same sort of process of, Am I going crazy, or is this some kind of ration? Is this really happening in reality? And that is what they call in occult terms, crossing the abyss. You're having an experience that you're either going to go bonkers because you're going to try to, like, chase all of this kind of stuff, and you're going to find significance in numbers constantly and stuff like that. Every time you look at the clock, it's a certain number.
Brian Heater 18:52
It does cross over into paranoid schizophrenia at some point.
Richard Metzger 18:56
Well, that's the thing. It can but if it doesn't, then you have crossed the abyss and occult term. So that's, that's what that means. And even if you're just looking at as as a process of psychology, it's a significant one. Something
Brian Heater 19:09
I like to talk to creative people about musicians, especially, is the idea of of the Muse, right? You know, and and channeling that creativity from somewhere else. I think that when it's working well, it can be a very thought, a very helpful thing, but those times when it's not, it can be, it can be incredibly frustrating. You don't, you don't know what to do with yourself. You don't know how to get back to that point. What does it mean when you don't experience those things, is it? Does it mean that you're not open in the right way? Does it mean that you're on the wrong track?
Richard Metzger 19:47
Well, I don't know what it means, because that that would be that's above my pay grade, certainly, but, but, but I did hear a metaphor the other day that was. So absolutely perfect that I repeat it as often as I can now when I'm talking about this subject, but I was on a podcast called this podcast is a ritual, and the very intelligent, very brilliant host of this show is a guy named Devin person, and we were talking about this, and he said and I was explaining something that had happened to me in detail, similar the story I just was telling you, and he said, and I said, but it never adds up to anything. That's the thing is, it's not like there's this one coherent message where you can say, oh, that that and that happened, and that must be this message for me, because it's never, in my experience, it's never been that way you
Brian Heater 20:37
didn't pick up the Crowley book and your life just turned around magically.
Richard Metzger 20:43
No, it had, it was, it was. The thing was, I look at it this way, it was where my attention was at that moment. And so, but here, here's the other thing to think about, okay, for me to have had that experience, right? That book had to have been printed up and written and published, and you know what I'm saying, years before this and then been it was published in the UK as in a small edition by an independent entity, but yet, it made it to the shop in New York, and there I was in front of it, asking it this question. I didn't have to ask it that question. I didn't have to pick it up off the shelf, but I did. And so it did happen. And the thing that I think is interesting about that also is you say, Well, what are the odds of that having happened? The answer was 100% because it did happen. It did happen. You see what I'm saying. So that's, did I answer your question? I'm not sure I did. In
Brian Heater 21:30
order to have had that specific, oh, I
Richard Metzger 21:33
got, I know what, I remember what I was gonna say, right? It's what Devin told me, right? And he said, and this is like, I say this just, it's perfect. But listen to this you said. So think of it this way, if you're, if you're sort of walking on a path through your life, and you're looking at and there's flowers and beautiful things and bunny rabbits jumping around this path and everything is like, fantastic and great. That's what the Synchronicities are when they happen. It's, it's a it's, that's, it's just that you can't really look at it any more than that. But if you're taking your path suddenly takes a turn to like broken glass and beer bottles and syringes and use condoms, you're on a different it's a different trajectory that you're on. And I thought, well, that's really a good way of putting it. I have never found that a lack of, shall we say, of of synchronicities happening to me for years and years at a time, is anything to be alarmed at. You know what I mean? I, for the most part, have worked from home for the past 25 years of my life. So it's not like I'm out in the world and things are happening to me in that way, but when I am out in the world, and when I am doing something which I consider to be spell casting, and which somebody else might look at as documentary film making, of course, but when I see that happen, that's when these things start to happen again. And I've lately been going through as I've been doing this Kickstarter and doing a lot of podcasts and talking about these things, there have literally been synchronicities that have happened while the shows are being recorded. There are people showing up from my past who have, I mean, it's a very interesting thing, what's going on right now, and it's, it's so the past month has been a period of intense, synchronous and just off the off the charts, whereas many times years and years will go by, and I wouldn't perceive anything as necessarily and it does not alarm me. It does not alarm me in
Brian Heater 23:33
any way you discuss, almost like the butterfly effect, all these things that had to fall in line perfectly in order for that book to arrive on the shelf in front of you, but, but also, I think what you were alluding to as well, though, is that you that you had to ask that question, and you had to be open to receive that information.
Richard Metzger 23:57
Well, well, yes, yes, that's true, but it would have existed no matter what my orientation was towards that I you know, I mean if,
Brian Heater 24:05
but in terms of actually receiving that specific information and then purchasing the book, you had to ask that question.
Richard Metzger 24:14
Well, yeah, I also had to be in that store that day, you know, I it also had to be a situation where that book hadn't been purchased the day before by someone else, which it could have been, you know, in a day different reality, you know, so it lie. It lined up for me, you know, if you were, if you run the film backwards, a lot of things had to happen for that experience of significance to occur to me. To complete
Brian Heater 24:36
that transaction, you had to be open to that transaction completing, and you had to believe that that was significant
Richard Metzger 24:44
information. Who wouldn't have faced with, you know, with with, with that,
Brian Heater 24:50
but most people, or a lot of people, wouldn't have asked the book The question in the first place, and they wouldn't have put their finger
Richard Metzger 24:57
down. Well, like I say, I was going through a. Period of intense synchronicities anyway, so I was more inclined to go through such a thought experiment as to do that.
Brian Heater 25:08
In order for these synchronicities to again, probably put your pay grade. But in order for these synchronicities to really be significant, do you have to be open and do you have to believe that they're significant?
Richard Metzger 25:23
Well, it didn't happen to you. So let me ask you, what would you say? I just told you a story that happened to me. So how do you react to that? I know how I react to it, but it's I don't feel like I'm subjective reaction. It seems like objecting. I'm reacting to something that is that exists in objective reality. So how do you react to my story? I mean, the thing is, I didn't just tell you that story because it seems like it seems like a lie, almost, because it's so stupid, right? When you say, I think it's dumb, but, but anyway, you know, but I'm not embarrassed to tell you the story, because, again, I could, I just held the book up and showed it to you on camera. So how do you react to that story? Is what I want to know. Let
Brian Heater 26:02
me give you. Let me give you a story that I experienced recently, and that it's not quite, it's not quite of that level, but it's significant enough that it really stopped me in my tracks, and that you're the second person who I'm telling this to after my therapist. Because I really want to get your take on on this and how to, sort of, how to, almost how to react to it. I'm honored, because I've been thinking about synchronicity specifically because of this. And it's very interesting that you, I think we met years ago, but that you've kind of come back into my life as I'm trying to, you know, process this information. So I, I recently left New York City after 20 years. I moved upstate into the Hudson Valley. I bought this house. So, you know, things, things have been changing in my life. I think, you know, largely for the better. About two or three weeks ago. Sorry, I'm gonna bring the podcast down a little bit. But about two or three weeks ago, my cousin and her 13 year old son were died in a car crash. You know, three, three other children a mother, horrible, right? I mean, just beyond the kind of stuff that makes you you know. But about a week later, I walk outside and there's a piece of paper just sitting, like it trash, but not trash with other trash, like just a straight piece of litter. I look down, it's a personal check, and the name on the check was my cousin's first name and her son's first name. Those were the first and last name of the person on the check. That to me, right? Again, probability very low of something like that. Yeah. What does one do when these sorts of things enter their lives? I
Richard Metzger 27:56
don't know. I mean, I just don't have an answer. I don't think anybody really does, you know, I've heard, I've, you know, I think, like I was saying Devin person's definition of that, that path with the flowers seems to be, it's the best one I've heard.
Brian Heater 28:10
Just to sort of accept that the universe is telling you something, or that you're on the right path, that you're with the bunnies and the sunshine. Well, I
Richard Metzger 28:17
mean, I don't see, it would be difficult to say that about the experience that you just described, obviously. So I, again, I just don't know. I know that these things happen and that other people have noticed that they happen to you're noticing that it happens, but i It's the explanation of it has always escaped me. I've never seen any it doesn't add up to anything. It never has for me, those
Brian Heater 28:39
of us who spend their lives pursuing information. We're building on the information collected by people in the path on the past. You know, you picked up the Crowley book or talking about Jung or, you know, any other numbers of people, there's always an acceptance that any rational person in their life that certain things are going to remain a mystery for the rest of your life that you're probably never gonna quite figure out what to do with that information, if only because of for the hundreds of years or 1000s of years, of people who've been seeking out that piece of information, they haven't stumbled upon it either. Exactly cliche to say, it's the it's a journey, not the destination, but you know, just sort of broadly speaking, what is the value in, sort of in trying to pursue this information and having these conversations on this specific topic,
Richard Metzger 29:29
feel that I can offer something to people who are who are looking to find answers or at least some solace in knowing that they're not alone in this way. But I also think that it's a it's I, I have always tried. If you asked me, like, Okay, what's the what's what were you put on on this planet to do? What's your, what's your goal in life? It's been to encourage you. For people to become more intelligent. It's been to encourage people to be skeptical and to understand their the media that they get is not necessarily something that is unbiased, but it's, I feel like it within the occult space, certain things have happened to me that I am able to explain, I think, in a way that people might see them, something happening similar to them, and be able to learn from that. I feel like also, by bringing these other people who have participated in magic show with me, they're, you know, to the, you know, hopefully, in a professionally produced sort of production like this, it will reach a wide audience. That's it's palatable. Yeah, it's palatable. That's the thing is, I don't think, as the editor cameraman, Eric middleman, who's one of my oldest friends, by the way, the guy that I'm working with is somebody who's been like a brother to me for most of my life. He says this, he said it, he said it many times, and he's like, no one would start watching this and turn it off like no one you know. And I think that's true. That's
Brian Heater 31:07
about as high as praise gets these days, that somebody's attention span can last for that entire interview. Yeah,
Richard Metzger 31:14
exactly. Don't, don't we know it, you know. But it's like, yeah, with a Tiktok attention span. But, I mean, I think that people would just sort of, yeah, he's I don't think he's wrong. I think no one would turn this off, because it's very compelling, and the personalities are very strong personalities. So there's, it's very compelling, and again, they're looking straight at the camera. So there's this, there's the you're making eye contact with them. And that's part of, I think, why that is so powerful. We're making eye contact right now in that way, you know. So you
Brian Heater 31:42
explain this synchronicity, and I've heard you. I listen to some recent interviews that you did as well, where you describe some others, and they're, you know, they're about of that caliber, as far as improbability, yeah, you alluded a little bit to some things that had happened over the years. You know, I know we discussed the synchronicities. I'm sure that those played a role in it as well. But as somebody who is, you know, who is scientifically minded and who, who values skepticism, which it sounds like you do, this is something you again, having listened to some recent interviews you did, this is something that you've been interested in from a fairly young age. Yeah, what has kept you in and around that world and what has kept you pursuing that subject?
Richard Metzger 32:33
Oh, it's a world view. It's a world view. It's always, you know, you're, you're sort of alluding to when I was younger, I guess when I was talking about on some of these other podcasts, I was there was never a time in my life that I can remember that I did not sort of consider myself to be someone who does or could do magic and and that was everything From relating to the, you know, Elizabeth Montgomery's family on Bewitched, Bewitched, yeah, you know what? I mean, like, you know, like her Uncle Arthur the war lock. I mean, that just seemed like a cool thing to me. And I was also really into, sorry.
Brian Heater 33:12
I mean, it's gonna drive me crazy until I think of the actor's name, the comedian who played Uncle Arthur. It
Richard Metzger 33:18
wasn't Maris Evans, was it? It's uh, the he's the guy, the guy with the mustache, Lynd
Brian Heater 33:23
Lynn, Paul Lynn. Was it? Paul Lind right? Wasn't,
Richard Metzger 33:29
well, there was, there were three. I can remember. I don't remember, I don't remember him in that to tell you the truth, but he probably was, but, like, 50 years, probably since I've watched
Brian Heater 33:37
it episode. You know that trivia just crawls into your brain and you like, until you get that piece of, I'm pretty sure it was Paul. It was on Arthur, but I could, I could also be wrong.
Richard Metzger 33:46
I bet you're right, though, so, but that was the kind of character that I would look at and and sort of identify with in a strange way. You know, like Bell book and candle was another film that I really loved when I was a kid, and but that, like, I say, it's sort of, or it, I instinctively knew, shall we say, or felt that I was one of them,
Brian Heater 34:10
since I mentioned Paul. And kind of interesting that there's almost, there's almost a parallel to sexuality there, as far as knowing, you know, what is the Bob Dylan, you know, you know something's happening here, but you don't know what it is. You know, you know there's something. You know. You know there's something maybe a little bit a little bit different, and maybe different from the your friends and your family. But until you have that vocabulary, and until you see examples of it, you don't quite know what's different about you?
Richard Metzger 34:41
Well, that's, that's kind of fantastic that you use Paul Lynn as the example. Because, I mean, I mean, he's such a unique person in pop culture of the 60s and 70s and 80s, because he was one of the very first, you know, clearly, obviously. Visibly gay men, but it was never discussed. It was never discussed. You knew that there was something perhaps different about Paul Lynn, but it wasn't discussed. It was never, I think Elton John. Think about Elton John, sexuality was barely hinted at until he himself decided to come out as a bisexual
Brian Heater 35:16
Liberace, very famously, exactly, yeah, exactly. Liberace, too. It's
Richard Metzger 35:20
like no one really talked about it. It was, it was kind of understood, but the thought never got connected. Shall we say. It was like it was just sort of hanging out in space. The thought never got connected with the with the with the general public. And that brings up something else that I saw that was fascinating recently, is that there's a documentary that was made by Mike Wallace. It was pre
Brian Heater 35:42
60 of 60 minutes, yeah, but it was just
Richard Metzger 35:44
a couple years before that. I think it came out in 1968 and it was called the homosexual but I mean, how crazy is that? If you think about it, it's like, within the last, you know, 55 years there had to be a documentary explaining the concept of homosexuality on network television to explain that to the American people. I
Brian Heater 36:05
don't want to belittle anyone's struggles on either side. But do you think that there is a parallel as far as people's understanding and acceptance of the occult, not
Richard Metzger 36:16
really, not really. I think it's, I think, I think that a lot that maybe would have been the case before, like, let's certain say, like, the Satanic Panic era of the late 80s. I think it certainly wasn't be the kind of thing that you would want to put you know, had had Facebook existed, then it wouldn't be the kind of thing you would want to have advertised about yourself at that time, because it could have affected your employment. But here today, in a post Harry Potter, post MCU universe. I think that, you know, it's very common. I mean, witchcraft is something that has been picked up as a it's a subset of feminism, to a certain extent, you know, so, so for someone to call themselves a witch is could be seen in in that those terms as well. But it's a very common thing for people to identify with these days. And I, you know, so I don't, I don't think there's a whole lot of stigma attached to is like there used to be Harry Potter,
Brian Heater 37:09
obviously problematic for different reasons relating to sexuality now, but as far as you know, whether it's Harry Potter, obviously be which, you know, there's, there's always been an element, even, you know, King Arthur, right? There's, there's always been magic in in popular culture, but, but not everyone makes that leap necessarily from, you know, this is a fictionalized No, one says playing a statement. But I would assume the majority of people who watch Marvel movies don't think that they're real, but you feel that, just like a representation of that in popular culture is perhaps opening up people's minds to possibilities.
Richard Metzger 38:00
I do, and specific, specifically, when we talk about the the MCU, you know, when people that audience and this, you know, billions and millions and millions of people around the world, they're hearing about something like chaos magic, and it's, it sounds cool, and they think they know what it is, or, you know, but do they know that it's something that, you know, started in the 70s, or arguably before that, with Austin spare but do they know that it was a real thing, a movement within the occult community that took place historically in the 1970s and in the 1980s and beyond, and that it is, in fact, you know, I would say, undoubtedly, the most commonly practiced form of magic, I would, I would think that's, that's my that's my guest. Guess, I guess. But you know, these people who are watching those, those movies know
Brian Heater 38:50
that, in a sense, I think maybe, you know, obviously, the internet probably. But you know, there's a good argument to be made that Wikipedia is the most empowering entity in the history of mankind, as far as opening people up to different channels of knowledge,
Richard Metzger 39:10
absolutely, I
Brian Heater 39:11
would agree with that. I guess in that specific case, it's that that pursuit of hearing about something in a movie, researching I hate, I hate again. I hate to say, Do you know, doing your own research? Because that has its own baggage in the in the certain connotations. Yeah. But it is that opportunity to sort of like, take that next step into the broader world and free Wikipedia, you know, just even going to the library and reading some researching some books on the subject. Sorry, I bring up Q Anon, but that's an interesting example of some of this, almost in reverse, where it's people seeing making connections in their mind and taking them in a far more problematic direction.
Richard Metzger 39:57
Yeah. I mean the you know, I. Q Anon, to me, is a phenomenon. It was clearly amplified by the Russians. And if you really look at the way that that that sub that that knowledge, that information, the how widely distributed it became, there's a certain point where you can sort of look at the the, you know, look at the internet, and just say, like, Okay, how many mentions of this were there, and on a certain day, it explodes, okay? And there was no doubt about it that it was the Russians who were amplifying that signal and that kind of, you know, information war. To me, I would describe that, and I as black magic, because it's a, it's a way of, literally, just, you know, doing harm to your enemies from a distance, the very that's the definition of black magic, and you're doing that in the Russians are doing that in such a way that they're taking something that's so malign, right? This whole Q Anon, the father and I can't think of their name, but the father and son, who operate that server where it was, and they have all of these, like, you know, it's been rumored eight Chan, yeah, exactly. And it's been rumored that they have even, like, you know, child pornography and stuff like that on their servers. And they're very unsavory characters, and vice has done documentaries on them, and you can see what they look like and where they live, and the whole thing. And, you know, the evidence is pretty compelling that it's these two weirdos, you know, who are the ones who are propagating this millions and millions of people who whose minds have been hijacked by this sort of thought contagion, if you will, you know. And then the Russians have amplified it even further. So it just keeps going. So the Russians have taken something like, it's like, saying, like, Oh, here's this kind of information cancer. Let's just, you know, do what we can to make it spread as far as we can. And that's like, I say that is a kind of a black magic. They're destroying American families that, you know, can't speak to each other anymore because there's a Q anon adherent, you know, there are people who are, who are, who are ruining their their own lives over this, you know, or they're, they talk about it in absurd ways. You know, it's, I mean, it's, it's a strange phenomenon to observe all of this, but like I say, it's, it's a, it's a, kind of a black magic, is the way that I see that
Brian Heater 42:18
maybe I'm giving people too much benefit of the doubt, broadly speaking. But I think there are parallels to be drawn with these, I guess, I guess sort of seeking knowledge, and in the case of what's been happening, you know, I would say late stage capitalism, you know, early 20th century and Empire in decline that we're all dealing with. Everyone understands broadly in the US that things are bad and that things are not going in the right direction. The difference is, what certain people, you know, what the sources are, I think, in the same way that that you you have, and a lot of people have pursued this, you know, they are, they're seeking these answers in Q Anon, and historically, that people have looked into religion for these kinds of answers. There's a lot of parallels to be drawn. But again, and this is getting very abstract and very subjective, I guess. But how do you know? How do you know when you're on the right path, you know? How do you know that, that that you're you're working for the forces of good and not evil?
Richard Metzger 43:34
Well, I mean in terms of, like, understanding what the difference between Q anon and and rational rational world view.
Brian Heater 43:42
When you start the journey down the rabbit hole, when you start the journey of code, doing your own research, well, that's, I
Richard Metzger 43:48
mean, that's, I mean, it's just, it's, it's people who are just not media literate. It's as simple as that. I mean, it's, you know, it's something that the American school system just has not kept up the pace on. I mean, it's interesting. I read it. I read it. I don't remember where exactly I read this, but apparently the younger people are it's much easier for them to recognize shit from Shinola. Now they sort of understand something that's more, you know, as it were, fake news or propaganda, than their older that older people do because they've been exposed to it all their lives. So they have a more of a more sensitive or nuanced view of it than somebody who was, you know, and that was the thing that I was noticing, and I sort of predicted what happened in the 90s. That was when you had better art direction of websites, and they were running banner ads for things that advertising would confer a patina of this must be the truth, or, you know, like if something that, if, in other words, like if corporate America would be sponsoring something like this, it must have passed a certain muster. So, you know, so something like Breitbart would have been one of the. Are sites that sort of really benefit it from, like, I say, a more professional presentation, from the graphic design point of view, and also from the the use of advertising, which, which is, you know, a semiotic message that is a strong one to someone who doesn't know any better and can't and, you know, who cannot really, you know, that's the thing is, I think, largely, you know, you look at the American public, a lot of people just believe the last thing that they read. They don't have, they don't have any deeply held beliefs at all.
Brian Heater 45:28
That's the whole Trump thing you hear about, right? That he literally the last person who spoke to him.
Richard Metzger 45:33
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's and that. And, you know, he is the avatar of that sort of mindset in the population, you know, there's, I would say that there's probably about 25 you know, between 25 and 30% of the population this country is just a bunch of fucking idiots.
Brian Heater 45:49
One of the conversations that I listened to ahead of this was you spoke to a month or so ago. It was posted, you spoke to our mutual friend, Douglas Rushkoff, and the subject of GamerGate came up. And you know that that and Pepe and that whole phenomenon is perhaps an example kind of counter to, I don't know whether it's media literacy, but certainly, you know the kind of broadly held idea that people get are more liberal as they're younger. I would say I've gone counter, that I've actually moved further left as I've gotten older, but that's a it's a different conversation. But you know, when you look at that on one side, and then when you look on media literacy on the other side, just just broadly in terms of what's happening in the world and how bad everything kind of feels to everyone right now. What are the things that give you hope that it's going to turn around and that we will head in that right direction at some point?
Richard Metzger 46:56
Yeah, report the world's longest sigh. I don't know. I'm a generally pretty optimistic person, and I would certainly consider myself a utopian I too. I would say I probably on the political scale as left as you can get, in many respects. And so I think, okay, one of the things that actually does give me hope is AI. And I think because AI is going to disrupt the the job market to the extent that it's going to require that there is some kind of guaranteed income situation that happens, and I think that that's going to be a big step towards a future where people are not as you know. The thing is, if the state, the state is going to have to provide for people when they can no longer provide for themselves, you know,
Brian Heater 47:47
but what you're describing, I get the sense of, and this is speaking as somebody who, you know, I'm a writer, and I write about technology, so I think about that specifically a lot, but you're almost describing, you know, the idea of kind of of hitting a rock bottom where things have to get so bad that things can start to get better again. In that case, a lot of people will have to lose their jobs.
Richard Metzger 48:09
Well, I'm not, obviously, I'm not seeing it as a rock bottom situation. I'm saying that the trends and when, when, when situation like a job, like an accountant, is no longer necessary as a job category. And you have millions, 10s of millions of people who will never be employed in that field again. And it's been, they've been doing it their entire lives. You know, it's truckers also, when there's automated vehicles that are going to be moving our food and goods across state lines, and there's no longer a need for long haul trucking, or even, you know, arguably, even a shorter delivery Hall, that's the biggest job category in the United States, in every single city and county in this country, is being a trucker delivering things, and that's going to go away. There's, there's, there's just no question that this is going to happen. But I don't see it as being a situation where everybody's lost their job and they hit rock bottom saying, there has to be a transition out of this, and it's going to have to happen quickly, because people are going to need to eat, and everybody's going to recognize this collectively. You know what I mean? I don't care if you look on the right or the left. You know what I mean? When you have no food for your family and you have no possibility of getting a job, and this has been going on for months and months and months, there's going to be a political upheaval in this country that I predict will go into a positive direction, because people are going to want things to be better for them. And they'll, they'll decide something rationally, as opposed to something that is, you know, that's more fear based or religious. You know what I mean, like this is, this is a, this is a real thing that is going to sharpen people's minds in the near future about the direction of that this country is going to go in. We're at an inflection point right now. You know what I mean? It could go either way. It could go towards fascism or it could go towards utopianism. I have a feeling that it's going to go in the direction that I'm hoping for, that a more just and more E. Economically secure future for the people in this country and around the world, because I think AI is going to is going to make that happen. It's going to increase their, you know, productivity will be increased, but the need for people to actually do things will be decreased by such a degree. You just can't expect people to just lay down on the road and die. You know, if it's just not going to happen, it's not feasible. They're going to have to do something. The whole concept of money is going to have to in exchange, will have to be rethought and reconfigured around something that's workable in a scenario where some people are incapable by the structure of the super system and being able to participate in it. You