A new album on a new label, The Well I Fell Into is a chance to consider and process the old and – hopefully – move on. A breakup album of sorts, Why’s eighth finds frontman Yoni Wolf processing the end of a year’s long relationship. As relationships go, however, Why has been remarkably long lived and fruitful. After beginning life as a solo act in the mid-90s, Why became a full-fledged group in 2004, whose core remains 20 years later.
Yoni Wolf 0:12
We were like, in the deep, deep, deep humidity, like half swimming. You know, when you're like, you're not quite swimming, but you're sort of half swimming, and then, yeah, today we got hit with this, like, this, this, like Mendocino weather. I'm not mad at it.
Brian Heater 0:30
Well, I actually just moved out of the city, but I'm in New York State, and just how excited we were that it was going to be in the 80s. And just, yeah, bizarre that is to talk about. Now, you know that when I
Yoni Wolf 0:42
was a kid that was hot, that was hot when I was a kid? Yeah, so it's just
Brian Heater 0:46
how things are going. Now, I guess this is just life, and we're gonna, in 1010, to 15 years, we're gonna long for the days of 95
Yoni Wolf 0:55
burn me down. Man, no, I, I'm a, you know, give me, give me a little breeze. Give me a little, like, dry it out, you know, I'm going out of the out of the house, so, like, if it's gonna go off the Wi Fi, you know, I'm saying, if it does anything funny, you know, funny business, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna walk a little
Brian Heater 1:17
bit. Do you find you, uh, interview better when you're walking,
Yoni Wolf 1:22
not, probably not, but it's just so nice out. Are you,
Brian Heater 1:26
uh, like, when you're writing, do you, do you walk? Oh,
Yoni Wolf 1:30
I walk. Yeah. I mean, I got this guy. So, like, we, we, uh, we're out a lot. We're we hit. We're hitting the streets. You know,
Unknown Speaker 1:38
who's, who's that?
Yoni Wolf 1:39
That's Marty Mars.
Brian Heater 1:41
What's his story?
Yoni Wolf 1:42
Hey, he's a friend. You know? He's a good friend, roommate, yeah, my pal,
Brian Heater 1:51
kind of a deadbeat,
Yoni Wolf 1:52
though. Little bit doesn't do much. Now, I ain't washing no dishes.
Brian Heater 1:57
Have you been in Cincinnati or your your whole life?
Yoni Wolf 2:01
No, you know I've been here. Um, is it you're not using this footage? Are you because chaotic? Okay, okay, yeah, no, I I've been here three quarters of my life, three, three quarters and and half a score of my
Brian Heater 2:20
non consecutive quarters, right,
Yoni Wolf 2:23
right? I was, I moved when I was like 20 to the bay, and then I moved back when I was like 30. Now I'm now, now,
Brian Heater 2:33
hey, I'm actually from the Bay Area originally. Okay, where, what part. I will not let a hella go by uncommented. Hold on.
Yoni Wolf 2:43
What party from?
Brian Heater 2:44
I'm from Fremont, from the east, went to school in Santa Cruz. End
Yoni Wolf 2:49
of the line, baby,
Brian Heater 2:49
yeah, although, although, I mean, it's technically still the end of the line, but they have expanded it now there's another end of the line, okay, the autumn wall Parkway stop, lifelong, lifelong, A's fan, which is, as you can appreciate, kind of miserable at the moment. I
Yoni Wolf 3:15
don't, I can't, I don't. You know, I'm not. I'm very, I'm barely privy. I hate to say, okay, but yeah, I mean, you know, it's just enough for me to keep, keep a little bit abreast of the politics sports pass by me, although I do enjoy watching when I'm watching, you know
Brian Heater 3:31
what brought you to SF and what brought you back?
Yoni Wolf 3:36
Well, you know, music, that sort of thing like, so we, you know, we had that anticon label out there. Well, we, we went out there to create it, you know. So that's pretty much what brought me out, be with, be around those guys, and having a little community of weirdo music people, you know what? I
Brian Heater 3:59
mean, what's the community situation, like, where you're at now, and I guess, like, how important is that? At this point,
Yoni Wolf 4:07
I think that it's very important. You know, I have a bit of a community I feel like I'm maybe not the best at like I've, I've, I guess we're getting, we're getting into some therapy territory. But, you know, I have, I have trouble maybe integrating as much as I used to into community and stuff. Maybe I'm not as good as I used to be at, at being like, you know, at getting involved with things and people and but I think that's typical for people. As you get older, you know, like most people by my age, have like, two kids, you know, and and are married and then divorced, and then maybe married again, you know what I mean. So. That's kind of like, takes the place of of those kind of fraternistic communities that that we involve ourselves in in our 20s.
Brian Heater 5:10
New York specifically, it's, it's, you know, it's hard financially and for a lot of other reasons, a difficult place to live. So people just don't settle down there,
Yoni Wolf 5:20
it's gonna be like, just like, right? The prices in the city are going to basically stunt population growth, just and easy availability to contraceptives,
Brian Heater 5:38
which is kind of the opposite problem, when you think about
Yoni Wolf 5:41
it, yeah, I guess so, I guess so. Anyway, yeah, no, I feel you. And I don't know if my, you know, if my inability to to lock in is is city related, or if it's more just, you know, just haven't figured out how to interact.
Brian Heater 6:09
You're talking just broadly like social, social awkwardness. And I guess,
Yoni Wolf 6:13
I mean, I Yeah, and relationship wise, maybe I've had a couple that didn't, you know, work out and things like that, but I'm just being self deprecating. I'm okay, but, you know, I don't know why I'm not in a more, you know, settled, whatever you want to call it situation. And I mean, look, neither of my siblings have kids like they, you know, they both have partners right now, but I, I've had partners too, but, you know, yeah, so I don't know what it is. I think it's maybe generational to some extent. And I'm not saying there's certainly a lot of people in my generation that are locked up, but are locked in, but and locked up I supposed to, but, like
Brian Heater 7:03
I said, I recently left the city and, like, I bought a house, and that's something that I just never thought was going to happen. There's just, I think there are certain things that our there are a lot of things that our parents generation took for granted that just don't seem feasible in the same way. Now, yes,
Yoni Wolf 7:24
no, absolutely. And I mean, and some of that is financial, I think, just yeah, you know, they show you these charts on social media and stuff about how the sort of, you know, minimum income has stayed the same as as housing prices and all this stuff has gotten more expensive. I
Brian Heater 7:45
wonder, too, if, like, there's something in your job that maybe can make sustaining a relationship difficult, because, like, in well, you know, you tour so much is probably a big part of it.
Yoni Wolf 7:58
That's true, although, you know, I also have spent, you know, like, I really haven't toured that much in the last, like, five, six years. I used to a lot, so yeah, for sure. Like, you know, that used to be real hard, and I had long stretches where I had no, no, no relationships. But, you know, yeah, as as as the years have gone on, I've kind of started to tour a little less, just because it's harder. What are you doing? Man, that's to Marty, but, uh, yeah, that that certainly makes it hard when, when I'm doing that. But I don't know otherwise, I don't know. I just maybe I don't go out that much or something, you know, I
Brian Heater 8:44
feel the same way, and, in fact, like, that's a that's a part of why I ended up just kind of getting out of the city. It was just like, I and the pandemic really drove us home, of just like, Oh, I'm not leaving my apartment the way I used to. What? Why am I paying, you know, for the privilege of living here, basically, and
Yoni Wolf 9:01
not, not even, you know, even beyond financially, like, I think the pandemic sort of showed us that it's kind of nice to have a little bit of, like, space, I don't know, and have a little, a little like bit of your own. Maybe I just got, I got, like, isolation, indoctrinated by the by the pandemic, I think. And I haven't really changed my ways that much, a little. I mean, I go out sometimes, but not, you know, I'm also not in my 20s anymore. You know, I'm saying I'm not, I don't drink either. So it's like, what do you go out every night and do? I don't know.
Brian Heater 9:36
I quit drinking a few years ago, and I kind of had a similar experience. It dawns on you, and you and you don't when you're in it, you don't really recognize, like, just how much of socializing as an adult is around drinking,
Yoni Wolf 9:49
oh, I mean almost all of it, I feel like, right? I mean not all of it, but much of it. When
Brian Heater 9:54
all the shutdowns and everything first started happening, I got concerned. Concerned, because I felt like I was a little I embraced it a little too much, and I was a little too comfortable that, but that, you know, that, that I was, I have to sort of throw myself into social situations, and it's, it's a little awkward and uncomfortable, and all of a sudden, like that, that sense of obligation was being taken away. Yeah, yeah.
Yoni Wolf 10:22
I mean, I Yes, it that didn't feel too crazy to me, I guess, um, yeah, I wasn't, like, always out anyway. So I and I had a partner at the time who I lived with. And so, you know, when you have that, you sort of fall into these, not always, but we kind of fell into a, you know, we don't go out much and kind of thing before the pandemic, so we just kind of kept doing that. But we kind of lived in terror, like we didn't, we didn't, like, go out at all, like, you know, we were, like, scared to leave the house, you know, but wear a mask to walk the dog around the block, you know what I mean, like that kind of shit anyway, not to relive that
Brian Heater 11:07
to a certain extent, we're gonna be reliving it, probably for the rest of our lives. But I always, you know, I talk to people about this quite a bit, and I'm curious to get your take on it. I, you know, I was living alone in my apartment for all of that, and I wonder, I wonder, what's the better scenario? Because obviously, there's, like, there, there's pluses and minuses of both of them. But being, like, being just completely alone and having to, you know, communicate with people over zoom, or, like, basically being locked up with somebody else.
Yoni Wolf 11:38
Neither. Grass is very green to be honest. You know what? I mean, I I don't know what the other way was, but it was, it was, it was tough to be with somebody. But I also can, yeah, I can imagine that being alone could be worse, even, I mean, yeah, anytime that you don't have, like, broad communication with, you know, a plethora of people. Shit gets weird, you know? I mean that, like, the only examples of that we have are like, this weird pandemic thing that we lived through, or like people in prison, I guess certain prisons isolation, or like someone like, like, when the Tom Hanks got got moored on a desert island. He
Brian Heater 12:22
seems to get stranded a lot in places. I thought you were going to say the time that he got stuck in the airport. Well,
Yoni Wolf 12:28
also that one, also that one. But there are people around on that one. That's true.
Brian Heater 12:33
Yeah. Yeah. How I mean, were you, were you writing a lot during that period? Yeah,
Yoni Wolf 12:44
I mean, I was writing a bit, but not like, I would say, like, without, you know, having like, varied experiences. You know, your mind can kind of get shut in a little bit, and from the, like, just the trauma of like, the fucking fear, you know how that sits on you. It's not, doesn't, like stir the creative juices, exactly. So I don't, I don't think I was super prolific during that period. I know some people like, wrote their novel or whatever, but I was already, you know, I already didn't have a day job, which is, I'm very fortunate about. So it's not like all of a sudden I got to be home after usually being in some cubicle every day or whatever. I've
Brian Heater 13:33
heard you talk about this, a little bit of forcing is too strong of a word, but really figuring out how to write in those moments where, you know, maybe you just don't feel like it that day, or the inspiration isn't, isn't necessarily coming, but of kind of, you know, forcing yourself to sit down and do something,
Yoni Wolf 13:57
yeah, I think it's good to do that. I don't have, you know, I don't have a great um routine. Really. I used to be more like, um, would only do stuff when, like, the quote, unquote inspiration hit or something, you know, like, I think now I've gotten to the point where I, I mine, you know, little moments inspiration hits, and I'll write a little something down or or, you know, maybe I'll write a little riff or something, and then I can sit down anytime and kind of comb through things and put things together and edit things and Move that, you know what I mean, like, if I wanted to, I could keep regular work hours, but I don't, because I don't know, this is a weird job, and things come up, like, you gotta, you know, whatever this like, we're doing a podcast, or I got to do, you know, work on a music video, or, you know, like, so there's just all kinds of different things. It's a varied, you. A lifestyle, so, but I should, what I should do, and what I was doing for a little while is locking myself in the studio for like, three, four hours, you know, in the morning before and I do anything else without my phone, you know, and then, and then using the rest of the day, you know, afternoon or one say to, you know, to do anything else I need to do, like emails or whatever, you know, what I mean, yeah, that's just to say that I think that it's good to have a practice like that, but I don't exactly have that ideal at the moment, just a regular, you know, putting in hours. You know, I'm not doing that right now, but I try to stay abreast of of things and and not let too too many days fall through the cracks. You know, you said something
Brian Heater 15:55
along the lines of wanting to do take a more traditional approach to songwriting for this record. What does that mean?
Yoni Wolf 16:04
Uh, well, I think coming off the heels of the last one, which was a Okay, Ohio, like the way that that one is structured. You know, there are a couple songs that are more like, you know, pop song structure, reverse, chorus and all that. But there's a lot of stuff that's like, you know, 30 seconds of the of the like, Hornet, Hornet extinguisher guy calling me about getting this hornet's nest off my house, or whatever, you know, you know, just weird shit that, like I was, which I like doing too, but like this, this album specifically, I was thinking more in terms of songs that can sit, sit on their own, you know, and be something on their own without needing to be, you know, abutted by other songs to have context. You know what I mean? So, yeah, just just beginning, middle, end, that's all. I mean,
Brian Heater 17:09
we were kind of bumping up against this earlier. But, you know, I get the sense that going through a breakup was a big I don't know if motivator is the right word, but at least, like a starting place for this album.
Yoni Wolf 17:25
Oh yeah. I mean, I think that the album basically Chronicles me dealing, or, you know, this character who is informed by me dealing with the for, you know, like trying to figure out how to how to be alone, and what I wanted, and what, you know, what's right, and what she should have, you know, for the first couple of years after, you know, like, that's kind of, yeah, that's what it is. I mean, it's kind of chronicling the ups and downs and the ins and outs of those couple of years, I think of change.
Brian Heater 18:03
What does that mean when you say trying to figure out how to be alone,
Yoni Wolf 18:07
you know, I don't know. Just trying, trying to know how to be without this person that you know you maybe you thought, yeah, I don't know. It's hard to tease away from someone else, like when you intertwine with someone, it's hard to peel away and feel, you know, okay, you know, especially if you, you know, live with them, and maybe there's some a little bit of codependency going on. And you go through, you go through a pandemic. And you know what I mean, like, it's a lot, and
Brian Heater 18:46
it sounds like, you know, it's that struggle of fight, you know, getting to a place where you're okay being alone, but then almost not trying not to get too comfortable being alone
Yoni Wolf 18:58
Absolutely. And I know, you know, I know other people like that, and I feel like I definitely have some of that, you know, I know people that have trouble being in relationships because, and I'm the same way, like it's, yeah, it's like a big learning curve to know how to interact with, especially that to go deep with one specific person. You know, I get, certainly, I get, like social anxiety just being out at a, you know, at an event or something, or at a coffee shop where I know a bunch of people around, you know what I mean, things like that. But that's nothing, I think, compared to, you know, trying to share your like, weird, intimate home, you know, like solitary shit with something like, you know, to live with somebody and and like have that. Kind of intimacy, um, takes another level of like unclenching, your your your solitariness. You know what I mean?
Brian Heater 20:10
I don't know if there's a parallel to be drawn, but, you know, I always, I always say to people, the best way to test a relationship is to move in with somebody. And I think, like similar that the best way to know, you know it, if you can be in a band with somebody, is to, is to go on tour with them and to hole yourself up in the back of a van, because, you know, all of the bad shit is going to come out real fast. No
Yoni Wolf 20:39
doubt, no doubt, but I think, I think that's, you know, I wouldn't know from from experience, but I think that's how you grow as a person, you know, is just to, no, I'm just kidding, I I would know a little bit, but, um, yeah, I think that's how you grow is, is by being sort of put up against that, that kind of thing, and having to talk through it. And, you know, and I think some people are better than others at it, and other people, you know, I just have gone through some recently, somebody I was dating, and this is a weird, like, non communication thing, and we had to sort of figure out how to, you know, neither of us wanted to, like, bring shit up, you know what I mean, and then we had to, like, figure out how to, how to do that. So, yeah, then that's normal human stuff. But I think it's, it's good to be brave and and try to try to open up and and be close to people. You know, maybe
Brian Heater 21:41
there are ways in which you're completely comfortable being that open and transparent person when it comes to, like, the art that you're putting out in the world, but actually just something that seems as simple as just sitting down and having a conversation with somebody, maybe doesn't come as easily well,
Yoni Wolf 22:00
because it's simple and you just have to connect the dots, but like, when I'm doing the art thing, I'm alone, so even though it ends up being shared with the world, I'm not thinking about that at the time. You know, at the time, it's I'm by myself, and I'm kind of just like, letting the shit dribble out. That said, I have a lot of really cringy music that, like that. I go back to later, and I'm like, What the fuck like, how did I put this out into the world? But, like, it happens because you're alone in a room, you know what I mean, and you're just anything, anything goes, yeah? So yeah, I agree. It's kind of easier to do that for sure, and then bring another person in, and then you got to not say all that stuff, you know, I'm saying like, and then you have to, like, yeah, figure out how to be authentic in yourself, but also not be, you know, a jerk, and consider what they would want to I don't know, be privy to about you and you know, I don't know lot, a lot of ins and outs, a lot of hoops.
Brian Heater 23:05
I wonder if it like can be difficult to reconcile with a partner where they can't, you know, they can't quite understand why you can be so naked and transparent in front of so many people, but just a one on one is so much more difficult. Yeah,
Yoni Wolf 23:21
well, I mean, transparent in front of people on the stage. You're not really with those people too, you know it's like. And also, if you're singing like, you know you're singing songs you wrote by yourself. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, but there's, there's, there's nothing that you know is equal to just the intimacy that happens between two people when they're like, you know, really in it with each other, whether it's a romantic thing or family or whatever you know, like when you when you sort of, especially living with somebody like, you know, even if it's your parents and your siblings or whatever you know, you see everything, and like, you have to be okay with them seeing everything. So, like, it's a you know, and when you get away from that, to reiterate what we just talked about earlier, when you get away from that for a long time, it's hard to go back to it.
Brian Heater 24:16
Would you describe making music as a like, an overwhelmingly solitary experience.
Yoni Wolf 24:25
I would say, for me, the generative moments are but, but then there's, you know, I mean, you can look at the credits, and there's like 40 people that performed on that album, and, you know, whatever. And so, yeah, that's, it's, it's, it is and it isn't, you know, but like, I feel like, yeah, the generative moments tend tend to be for sure. And you know, that's what informs the rest. In a way, when
Brian Heater 24:54
you say generative, you mean like the song writing specifically, yeah,
Yoni Wolf 24:58
yeah, I'm one. Talking about songwriting, I guess, yeah. And, you know, demoing, and, you know, it's like, how something's gonna go, and then, yeah, once you're in with other people, and still it's like, it'll be awkward for me to I'll feel weird about singing my stuff in front of, you know, the people that are playing on the record too, you know, like, so I may, yeah, I may not really, like, you know, one example that I that comes to mind right now is, like, along an old one, but like, on, like, the song alopecia, I mean, on the album, alopecia, on the song Good Friday. You know, no one had heard, you know, I didn't let anybody hear my all my verses before, you know. So I just, like, the first time anybody heard some of that stuff was when I was in their booth and they were in the in the control room, you know, just because it's, I didn't know how to do it in front of them. And then you just do it, and then there, you know? So, yeah, it's and maybe that tells me that, like, that's the stuff that I shouldn't be releasing to the world, you know, that I should be able to sing something to people that I know before I let people that I don't know hear something maybe I don't know. Yeah,
Brian Heater 26:20
I mean, you talked a little bit about, again, maybe this is too strong of a word, but you talked a little bit about regret from the standpoint of something being like, like cringy. But is there ever regret around maybe too open about something that should be kept private? Well,
Yoni Wolf 26:39
that's really what I mean by cringy. So yeah, lots of that, um, and yeah, just like, yeah, just just little lines and almost like, man, like, or even even like ways of being like, like, being too, too animated in videos, or being too you know, I get, I get cringed from a lot of my old stuff. Try anything that's like, trying too hard. Basically, if it's if it doesn't, like, you know, if your whole being doesn't roll off the tongue, then it's like, don't do it. You know, I think that's the rule of thumb. But it's hard, you know, when you're self editing, you know, like, it's, it's often hard to know, you know, that's why, like, big pop stars have teams of people that are like, Nope, don't do that, you know. Like, because they're image conscious and image concerned and like, you know, no one's gonna tell me, you know, cut your hair, dude, you know, whatever. Like no one, really. I don't have that kind of, those kind of people around me, really, you know, this is
Brian Heater 27:48
another line that's really difficult to walk. Is obviously you want to try hard, you know, and that you want to put your best thing out into the world, but you don't want it to look like you're trying too harsh, totally,
Yoni Wolf 28:02
and, and, yeah. I mean, look, when I right? I mean, I put so much effort into into certain aspects of song making, but yeah, you want it to feel effortless. And, you know, I don't know when you're I feel like when you're in like, for instance, me right now talking to you, like, if I was too stilted or too like, then it wouldn't come off. Well, I'm just trying to be natural and just talk. I'm, you know, I'm also pretty stoned, so it's kind of like I don't have an option at the moment, I forgot about this and I was in the studio, but, um, but, yeah, I think, I just think that, you know, anything you do that you put out in public, you want it to be like, I don't know. Then, then I see the other side of things too, where it's like, well, you know, we're only alive once. And like, if, if, like that feeling or that, or that itch or that, or that, you know, to say something in a certain way comes to you, then it's like, why not? I don't know. I see both sides. Like Chanel, you know of it. And, you know, because a lot of, a lot of what, maybe, what may make me cringe is me being, you know, raised up in the in the way, in the place that I was. And I just mean, in our culture, you know, and like the things that we see as being, you know, taboo or uncomfortable or embarrassing, you know, things like that. So at times in my life, I know I've kind of pushed at that a little bit for the sake of doing it for for myself as a little bit of a like I just that, I've just that I've pressed at, pressed at the pressed into a. The discomfort a bit of, you know, saying things or in a way that, um, is a little, I don't know, not taboo. I don't think I'm saying taboo things. But just like, you know, a little out of what, of what, out of your comfort zone, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And I don't know I like the idea of that, but then when I go back in time and and see stuff from the past, it makes me uncomfortable. So that's
Brian Heater 30:29
always a difficult relationship, too. Of you know, somebody coming up to you and telling you how much they love this thing that you did, and all you can think about is, you know, you can only see the bad in this thing that you put out into the world. Yeah,
Yoni Wolf 30:46
I mean, well, look, I also see some good, like, they're like, I can, I can check out younger, some younger stuff that I've done, and also feel like, oh, like, that's cool, you know, almost see yourself as a different person. That's cool. He thought of that, or whatever, you know, but, but, like, yeah, largely, you hear the shortcomings or the or the weirdness, for sure. Do
Brian Heater 31:09
you feel like being stoned makes you more honest?
Yoni Wolf 31:14
Do I seem extra honest? No, I'm
Brian Heater 31:16
just, I'm curious, like, how you know you, you alluded to it earlier. And I'm curious, like, how that that interacts, how that, like, impacts the way you interact with others.
Yoni Wolf 31:25
I think that it tends to make me self conscious sometimes or but, you know, sometimes I feel like this goes right with what we're talking about right now. Oh, fuck, Marty. I don't have a bag. I'm gonna have to come. I know where there's a bag. So, yeah, I mean, I think that sometimes I will going to get a bag going
Brian Heater 31:55
then arrest. Sometimes in life, you got to get a bag for this shit.
Yoni Wolf 31:58
Sometimes they were looking at they were giving me the eye. Some, sometimes, when I get stoned, I will sort of see things in another light, and it will help me edit and and realize what what is natural and honest and what feels like a stretch. You know what I mean? And like, I'm, like, I'm pressing too hard. So, yeah, I think it can, in fact, you know, I think it's good just in terms of making music. It's good to work in various I don't, I don't mean you got to get high to make music. For sure, you don't, but it's good to have various mind states when working, I think, like having a, you know, having the like, just the dreamy, like, anything goes, no editing like mind state is very good for the very, you Know, seeds of things, you know what I mean. And then you definitely want to have that sort of editor mind state, and you want to have the sort of productive person mind state, you know. And those all I think are appropriate for different parts of the process, you know. I
Brian Heater 33:18
think the simplest version of that for, like, for me as as a writer, the simplest version of that is just, just like standing up, you know, leaving my house, you know, leaving the room for a little bit, coming back and, like reading something with a fresh pair of eyes. And this is a way to, almost, like to give yourself, like a hard reboot,
Yoni Wolf 33:40
absolutely, yeah. I mean, that's exactly what I'm talking about for sure. And I think that, you know, drugs can kind of aid in that sometimes, but also, so can I walk around the block for sure? So, yeah, and I think different times of the day too, like, you know, you're you perceive things differently when you first wake up than you do right before you go to bed, you know. So I think it's good to, you know, keep going back to your work and being like, you know, because I'll often even just, even if I'm not being self critical, if I'm in an early part of the process of demoing or whatever, I'll still come back to it and I'll change one word or whatever, you know. I
Brian Heater 34:20
don't want to get, like, too far into this sort of, like, Joe rogany drug talk, but I I'm just really sort of curious for, like, for my own edification as somebody who has dealt with, like, just a lot of anxiety my, my entire life. You You did ketamine therapy? Is that right?
Yoni Wolf 34:39
I did, actually, yeah, how did you know that
Brian Heater 34:44
you mentioned it or wrote about it somewhere? Okay, well, I did
Yoni Wolf 34:47
do that, and I found it. I think it was good for me, actually, how so? Well, I think it just, it helped to make me a little more like, um. It's a little more resilient and not, you know, not as easy to get discouraged and dark, you know. I don't think it was like a permanent fix. I think I did it like a bunch of times, you know. And I think it could be something that really just just sort of stay in the light you would have to do it, like once a week, or once every two weeks, or something like that. But it's too expensive for me for that. But, yeah, I think, I think it's a good it's a good therapy. And a lot of people talk about, of course, mushrooms, and I've never really done those in that way, so much. But I like the idea. I don't know I'm not, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a drug guy. I mean, I just smoke weed, really. You know,
Brian Heater 35:52
are you talking about depression, specifically,
Yoni Wolf 35:55
yeah, yeah, anxiety, you know, just, just, just like, just like rotten mind or whatever. Just think, thinking too much, you know, too much in your head. Where's that poop? Marzie, I lost it, dude, I lost the damn poop. Man,
Unknown Speaker 36:12
there are worse things.
Yoni Wolf 36:13
Oh, my God, I know what these people here. All right, we got to do it this. All right, we're not look this is like a first for me. And like, I find other other dog shit over here all the time. So
Brian Heater 36:25
I woke up this morning, there's just a giant pile of dog shit out in front of my house.
Yoni Wolf 36:29
You know, let it be known on this podcast, I walked around with the bag for a full seven minutes to try to find this thing.
Brian Heater 36:37
I think maybe what you were getting at. And again, this is something that I really, really connect to on a deep level. Is the thing about this applies to anxiety, this applies to depression. This applies to probably a lot of other things that it's really is that you spiral and that it's sort of like, it's, it's almost like self perpetuating. You know, that that the the more you get into your own head, the worse, the worse it gets. And maybe, maybe this is a way for you to, kind of, like, I don't know, almost like, shake yourself out of it. I
Yoni Wolf 37:13
think so, yeah, I think. And I think that's what these different kinds of drugs do, is they kind of, you know, or or even SSRIs or something. Yeah, they kind of, I mean, we're being very metaphorical, of course, but like, yeah, that they kind of, you know, yeah, shift you out of those networks. They talk about the laying down fresh snow, you know, on on, like, tracks that you've been in for a long time and and allowing you to sort of create new tracks. You know, is
Brian Heater 37:41
your work better when you are just in a better state of mind?
Yoni Wolf 37:49
I'm not sure. I mean, I would think that. I think that I'm more able to see clearly. I think I think that. And again, this harkens back to what we talked about earlier, about feeling cringy, about about old, old work and stuff like that. I think that not only is a less, you know, depressed, less anxious mind state desirable for those obvious reasons, but I think it's like clearer. I think it's clearer and you're more able to see like, what, what is the honest idea you know, and what's the contrived idea you know? What's, what's the natural voice you know, and what's something you're putting on so and even literally that, but metaphorically that, and literally that, um, your voice, I mean, so, yeah, I think I think I think that certainly having being able to think more clearly, or not, being depressed, you know, and anxious and you know, and fearful and all that stuff you know, being able to think more clearly you could, you know, you also think more clearly about your work. You know what I mean and what, what, what's honest and what's not. For sure, classic air is a vacuum where you are not and I'm a can a coke flatten by 1000 cars. How strange to be strangers after what we was soft.