Plenty of musicians talk about 'leaving it all on the stage,' but few have offered as demonstrable an example as Samuel Herring. His live performance is a conduit for unbridled emotion, capturing mainstream attention as the frontman for Future Islands. As Hemlock Ernst, Herring's lyrics offer insight into life experiences, no better exemplified than on the hip-hop group's latest, Studying Absence.

Samuel Herring 0:00
I think it's something that I connected, you know, if you connect with music, if you you know, especially as a kid, you're like, you see that, you know, like the the musician, the musicians that I was drawn to as a child came from my parents, of course, you know, like looking through your parents record collection, but, but, you know, listening to, like old R and B and old soul, there's so much more. There's soul in it, you know, and, and I came up in I was born 84 so I came up in the 90s, and in that kind of grunge era, and through the 80s, which was more of like a slick, the cool, you know, it's kind of a cool era and a money era, into this kind of disaffected youth grunge era, which I mean, you know, to be fair, the Velvet Underground started that long before, but it kind of resurfaced. And I never connect. I never really connected with that type of music, you know. And I think it was, you know, it was, it was really hip hop. Was the first thing that really, really grabbed me. There were a couple bands I liked when I was younger that I got from my brother. But when I have discovered hip hop, it was like, Oh, this is, this is soul. This is people speaking truth, and they're speaking about the self a lot, which I think, you know, some people are, they're like, you're you rap. Or, how does that inform future islands? They don't understand that that came long before future islands. And that's like how I learned to write, but, but simply to me, you know, the MC talks about their personal stories and their struggles. And in within rock music, a lot of times, it's more of a universal stories, or, well, just using a more universal language to tell a story. You know, hip hop is extremely self reflective, and, you know, it's, I always say it's like the only genre where people literally say their own name, you know, they like big up themselves. And that's, that's part of the mask of it is part of the sword of it, you know, it's part of the shield of it is that armor that sometimes we have to give ourselves to make ourselves feel stronger. Just think, I think what I connected with, but it connected me back to that soul and like, like, not just saying something that's true, but performing it in that same way, you know, performing it like it really means it, and not the disaffected youth or the, you know, the too cool to care. It's like, no, no, I want to, I want to, like, feel it. You know, you watch like I remember, I was watching a documentary on Otis Redding, and just seeing him, he he like his performance style. Was like, and I watch performers, you know, I watch singers, you know. And I always say, like, if you don't have a mic, if you don't have a guitar, if you're not at a piano, you better be doing something. Like, if you're holding, if you're just holding a mic. You ever been

Brian Heater 2:55
watching a band? And you're like, all the time, you're so awkward up there,

Samuel Herring 2:59
yeah? And I mean, you know, I can't knock people, you know, people have their own, you know, comfort on stage and what they want to do and, and I'm, I don't consider, I consider myself a performer before a singer. You know, a singer is something that I'm, I've just done, but performance is where I feel comfortable and try and that connection and connecting with the the spirit of music and the songs and all that stuff. But, but, yeah, putting it, putting it out there. But, but yeah. Like watching Otis. I was amazed. This is only maybe five or six years ago. I saw this because he stood like a tree. You know, his like his feet are just rooted in the ground. He wasn't dancing, but it was all in his upper body. And he's just like, it was just like, to this one performance was like pouring sweat and tears and emotion, but just like rooted in the ground. And I was like, I'm gonna try that. And there's actually a, there's a song that we used to play that I would do it like Otis would do it. I like because of that performance, and I wanted to feel what that felt like, to not to not let my legs fly, but to like, what if I, what if I really root myself in this song and this feeling so so it's also interesting to try those kinds of things. I mean, you know, I grew up seeing the old James Brown performances, old Elvis performance. I mean, you watch old James Brown.

Brian Heater 4:21
Let's back up a second. What, what was the how did that impact the performance going the Otis route? I

Samuel Herring 4:29
think it just gave me another it just gave me another frame of reference. I mean, part of that song too was, I was trying to root my my voice more. I felt like I was I was missing and I and I looked for it. It was an old song we used to do called North Star. It's off our fifth album, and it has a bit of it has a bit of soul to it. And then that was the thing I was just, I don't know, I I don't know. I don't know how it changed it. I mean, it did, and it's something I had to remind my. Myself, of I was like, had to remind myself about trying to ground, to ground, myself to to feel the the song. More

Brian Heater 5:08
Do you still get hyper self conscious when you're out there? Hmm,

Samuel Herring 5:11
not I mean that the goal is to never be self conscious. But you know, it's like, the better you get at something, the more time slows down. You know it's like, it's like, if you hit fast, if you hit, you know, 100 mile fastballs, like you you just see it differently. If you're used to hitting like a 9500 mile per hour fastball, and then you get an 88 like, it's just like slow motion. So, so I feel like as I've gotten better as a performer, as I understand my audience, my movement, what the what the different, what the different things do, what I can enact. You see things before they come. It's almost like in freestyle, like, when there was a time when I was I'm not up to I do not have my chops these days. It's been many years, but any freestyle will tell you, you know, when you get to that open space, like you see, you see ahead of it. You're can, you're already connecting the rhyme as you're saying the word that, the word, the word that is coming from, you know, from space filtered through you. You're already seeing ahead of it. And that's like, that's like, that time slowing down and kind of being in that flow. So, so, you know, there's times where my body hurts or my voice hurts, and I'm self conscious about those things, about going too far physically, with, you know, either my legs or my voice, because I have to think about the next show too.

Brian Heater 6:42
You mean just pushing yourself too far? Yes? Yeah, yeah. Because,

Samuel Herring 6:46
you know, in the old days, I used to, I would drink a lot. I still, I still have a couple drinks before I go on stage, but I used to have a lot of drinks, and that was, you know, when you do that, it's, I did it to numb the pain of my body and and tour and just having some fun, but, but then it became about really numbing your body, but then, but then you lose the threshold of pain. You need pain. Pain response exists for a reason, so that you don't push past it and hurt yourself. And so I was just doing that night after night after night, and and I had to find new ways to start looking after myself so those things get in my head. I can be self conscious about an audience, but I'm kind of past that, because I know so much of like if the audience isn't connecting. In the old days, I used to really go after them, you know, if I felt that I needed them to get on my side and or I just needed to get get a reaction from them. But I think just through maturity and experience, I've found that I really need to relax and go with myself, and then they will ultimately connect, or not connect. You know, you have to, I have to have joy, and I have to be honest with the emotion, and you know, because you're not going to catch everybody, the intimidation factor of going after the crowd, though, it creates a very quick reaction. People, either like, are like, Okay, I'm leaving, or I'm very engaged. But I think, if you I think in going a little bit easier. I mean, I did that even recently. We did a tour opening for Weezer in was that 22 think in 20 or maybe that was just last year. It might have been last year. It was recently, yeah, but their crowd was very confused by me. I think people are still fighting online about that, and I'm just like, we're just a band, and your favorite, your favorite band asked us to play. Like, what

Brian Heater 8:44
I mean, listen, like, I've seen Weezer before. And as far as like Weezer's like, weird pairings go, you're like, you're pretty high up there. Off the mark. Like, no, no, not at all. Quite the contrary, like weird, like metal bands in the past, but you've said something again in response to that, The Late Show performance, that I think makes a lot of sense, that that just the act of being polarizing is powerful in and of itself.

Samuel Herring 9:11
Yes, yeah, I think I mean that that's the that's good art. You know? That's like what there was once a time. There was once a time that I consider myself a visual artist many, many years ago, and that was, and I was, you know, very at that time, you know, 1718, years old, and I was all about performance art. I just discovered performance art. And it, it was, it would just kind of blew my mind, because it was like, Well, you have this thing that there's no product, you can't sell it. The process of doing it is basically the art, you know, there's not like an end thing, and it's more about the it was like, these, you know, there's, there's this. A artist named to Shin Hus who was known to do, he did like, seven or eight one year performances and and, you know, it was more like a test of will power for the artist. But like I said, there was no, I think, you know, he'd spend a year of his time, like, one of the performances was like, I can't go inside a building for a year. And he lived in New York City, and so he basically had to, yeah, he just had to live. He lived in the streets and but, you know, he got hounded by police. He got thrown in jail. He like, lost his mind, because he's like, You're ruining my art. And, you know, all that's left is this 10 minute film of of his year of struggle, you know, and you can't sell it. So I was really interested by that, that part of the artist who is not interested in in kind of a monetary gain, but is into the the process of doing and sacrifice, you know, if you talk about old music, like, Man, I'm I'm sorry, I'm so tangential, if you talk about, like folk music, you Know, from the old days. I mean, like old country blues, country blues. I mean, you know,

Brian Heater 11:07
the orange Mississippi Delta, yeah,

Samuel Herring 11:10
there's no money attached. You know, it's just like people who had a story to tell or wanted

Brian Heater 11:15
and they didn't expect to be recorded, in most cases, exactly. It

Samuel Herring 11:18
was just for, like, the joy or, you know, going back to the old Bard days, just like, you know, maybe make some coin telling the news from across the land, but, but I, I have been interested with with that too, because it is and, of course, you know, we live in, we live in this world. And when you're when you're out there, you're like, I'm in pain this. I better make something doing this. I'm sorry I got way off the mark in a certain sense that

Brian Heater 11:48
maybe you know, because it what you're describing, is kind of anti

Samuel Herring 11:52
polarization. Yeah, that almost

Brian Heater 11:55
like runs counter to this, this other drive that you have to really connect with people at the same time, you know, in terms of, like, making art, for art's sake, doing something that's potentially alienating, but also, you know, performing, as you're saying in this room, and, like, you know, beating people over the head with it, and really trying to sort of connect with them on that level.

Samuel Herring 12:15
Yeah. Well, like I said, I do, I've I'm not beating people up as much. We're not beating anybody up. I'm not I'm not going after people as much, and I'm trying to find joy in the art and even in the pain of the art, which is, you know, so much of what we do is about, you know, the struggles and dramas of my life. You know, the guys have allowed me to the space to sing very personal stories, and in a weird way, that's, you know, it's cataloged a good bit of my life. And you can really, you know, you could listen to our first album and hear just this anger and this drive and frustration of a kid, you know, like a 23 year old kid, and now it's a much more mature sound, because it's really is the journey of of you know, of people you know, of a person, but also the band you know, like they create the bedrock, and they create the bed of emotions for me to for me to speak from. And that's where I pull the emotions from, you know, whatever I'm going in my and within my life. But, you know, making, making people, polarizing people. I think the interesting thing about it was that's, you know, you create a you create a dialog that exists outside of yourself, you know, which is, you can look at it. You can look at it a few ways, you know, because it's hard. If there's like 51 people that love you and 49 that hate you, if there's a good chance you're gonna be like 49 people hate me, but, but that, but the thing that they create between themselves, it's just like a fire, you know, it's just like two sticks rubbing against one another. It creates a fire. And that's kind of what that moment did. Because I just don't think people get to see that is, or at least 10 years ago. I don't, I don't think we see that kind of that performance. I mean, a lot of people think, thought it was dishonest so and some people are still confused by my style, but not at a future Island show, you know, like our shows. I think people, they know, they come there for a reason. And I think the job that we're what we're trying to do, is to the opposite of alienate people. It's really to create a space where people feel comfortable to be free because I'm because I'm not like, I'm not a typical front person. And we are not like, we're very, I wouldn't say we're anti fashion, but we're not a fashion band, you know, we we came. We came up a. And through the back door to do this thing, as far as, like, how far we've been able to go, and the amount of people that we've been able to reach. You know, I don't think that would have happened without, without that Letterman performance, of course, and with time I've I like accept that as a positive, but it's hard too, because the more eyes that are on you, the harder it is to to kind of be honest to yourself, because you feel like you're trying to create for other people. So we really, we kind of like that. All of that did kind of mess us up for a little bit it, I think it made us out of sorts. It was like, oh, people are finally listening. 10 years in, they're finally paying attention, so let's, let's do what they like. And we did that for one record, and then we're like, ah, that maybe that wasn't what we should have done. And we've been trying to get back to our to ourselves since then, and it feel really good about where we got, where we are now, very proud of the record we just made and really proud of the record before that, it kind of went under the radar because we put it out in the pandemic.

Brian Heater 16:04
But I was reading a recent interview, I think it might have been the stereo gum one, and you told a story that you know, that really connected with me and probably with a lot of other people of this period in your life. I think you might you were probably in high school at the time, and you're doing rap battles, and you had one really bad performance and that, and that really, like sideline you for, like, for like, six months. I mean, that was a profound moment for you.

Samuel Herring 16:28
It was bad, man. Well, the, yeah, I don't know. I'm trying to, like, liken it to something, getting it was, it was extremely emasculating that. I mean, that's the word for it, but I don't really, I can't really say another thing. I couldn't even get a word out. I mean, these people were just booing me, but I was, it was definitely a humbling experience, and I was very arrogant when I was 17 and 18, which led to a lot of issues in the next, in the coming years, arrogant, more towards my ability. But, you know, most 18 year olds also think they're invincible. Which I did, which, you know, I got, you know, sold drugs for years and then got addicted and and that that was, that's more what I'm speaking to, but, but that, that moment getting beat in a freestyle battle really bad. Couldn't even get words out because people were just booing over me. I mean, I really wasn't fair, but just that feeling of like, I can't do this. I couldn't really rap for like, six months and and, but the thing it taught me was, you know, to be humble, but also and to not go pick a fight, because I went to a rival school and was like, Bring me your best emcee very quickly. Boom, out of the place. Caesar, just bring me your best. Oh, it was bad. And then, and but it also, it spoke to what I kind of already knew, but which is the power of words, you know, and words have so they're just, they're, they're the world, world to me. You know, they, they are my world. Like words gave me power as a young kid. They gave me a voice. They gave me an identity. It gave me, you know, it was my work. Is my play. And so much joy has come from that, you know, there the word is, is very important to me, so to be destroyed by the word, to have the word taken away from me, it made me, you know, also, you know, be humble to the fact that this is a powerful tool. And so, you know, I had a teacher around that shortly after this happened. Or was that? No, that was my senior year. So it would have been before who I remember this was it like a special art school for kids that I that I was nominated and got into in my between my right before my senior high school, and I had this teacher that was like, he was basically Like, you are a slacker. You don't like you don't give a shit, but you're but you have a great gift, and you can, you can use that gift, you know, or or you can abuse it. He didn't say that, I could, I could lose it. But he's like, you literally have a power on stage. He told me, this is a 17 year old kid, and you know, are you gonna use it for for good or bad? And then, you know, and then I get destroyed on the hunt for a battle like, I think I'm gonna rethink use it for

Brian Heater 19:55
evil. Yeah,

Samuel Herring 19:56
I think I want to build, I don't, you know, within the first. You saw world. It's like, you want to build, or you want to battle. I was definitely more of a builder, but, but, you know, that's the thing. Like, I still, I see so much of that still, to this day, I think about my, you know, my old teacher, and the gift that he gave me, which was really a boost of confidence, but also it was, it was a slap to be like, wake up, you know, don't you know, you use this thing that you have, you can, you can do something good with this thing. And I feel like I've been able to to do that. I've always loved the stage, you know. And I understand the power of it. I understand that the power of the position and the position of a band that people care about, that they're like, you're a part of my life, and there's, there's pressure in that, there's responsibility in that to continue forward, to continue to give people, you know, points to reflect upon within my own life, to be honest, which is something that I still deal with, you know, like, it's hard to it's isolating sometimes, and I deal with social anxiety that's grown as the band has grown big, I think, because of that responsibility. So, so I these are all things that I, I work work on and working on, you know, through self care and therapy and things like that, and but, but you know that that's like life too. I feel lucky that I have the ability to both do what I do and support myself in that, you know, in taking care of myself, to be to be able to do both things. Because there was a time in my life where I was, like, giving 120% on stage, and then giving 120% of myself off stage, and then I would just became a a raw body, you know, I was just so I was and I was dead and inside and afraid. So, yeah, I don't know,

Brian Heater 22:03
social anxiety is a weird one. I, you know, I experience it too, and it just seems so completely arbitrary sometimes, because, you know, like, I do this job, I'm a writer for living, but I interview people on stage, and I could talk to strangers, but I go to, like, a party where I don't know anybody, and that's where I just completely shut down. And that's been a really difficult thing for me to reconcile in my life, because, again, on the face of it, it doesn't make a lot of sense. What

Samuel Herring 22:30
just that you are an outgoing and gregarious person, and yet you have the issue with there

Brian Heater 22:35
are certain even like potentially lower pressure situations where I just completely shut down

Samuel Herring 22:40
well, but it's also easy to think that those are higher pressure situations, you know, and and feel that, I mean to me, that like, and that that, you know, that's a bad, I don't know if that's like a form of masking, or something where you're like, you know, on stage, I feel I know what I'm supposed to do, you know, like,

Brian Heater 23:06
you've got a role. I've

Samuel Herring 23:07
got a role. I'm supposed to be there and and we're gonna have fun. And I've got my, I've got my my friends who I, who I trust, who trust me, behind me, like, so we're and we're all together, you know. So, so there's something for me to do. And when I go to a party, I'm like, you. I'm like, What am I supposed to do? Like, it's, it's a different thing. I talked about that recently in an interview, just like, you know, going to a Christmas party is, like, the most stressful thing I can ever imagine. And then, and then you're like, oh, I have a friend here. Then it's okay, you know, you just kind of need, if you have one person to talk to that, that it's all right, you can have a good time, but, but I'm also, I'm often going places and have already plotted my escape. But I'm also like, like you said, it's, it is a strange thing, because I'm kind of introverted and on my own, I'm somewhat reclusive. I'm really happy with my small my small circle, you know, I have my partner and and, and that's in, you know, my friends, my few close friends. There was this time in my life where I was like, I have so many friends, and then I went through a really bad relationship, and a lot of my friends hurt me through that, and I was like, oh, maybe, maybe that's not real. And it was a hard time, but then it made me realize, like, the importance of the of my real friends and who my real friends were, they made my world a little bit smaller. But, uh, but, yeah, I don't know. I think I'm just trying to say, like, we have to give ourselves grace in that time to be like, it's just kind of how I am and how I feel.

Brian Heater 24:56
About five or six years ago, I stopped drinking, you know? Like, health reasons and other reasons as well. And a lot of times, it's not until you stop doing it, when you really realize, like, how important that was as a social lubricant. And I'm wondering, like, for you, you know, you're describing this period. And I think most of us have been through this where, like, everything is going wrong. You know after, you know, you're doubting yourself, you know, there's some self medication happening during that period. Was, was that, to at a certain extent, a way to deal with your anxiety?

Samuel Herring 25:29
Yeah, yeah. I mean, drugs. I was, I was, I had a cocaine addiction, so I was like,

Brian Heater 25:35
that really makes you life a part of it. Well,

Samuel Herring 25:37
it's supposed to my whole style. I mean, I was like, I was not a social user, which is when you create real problems, you know, it's just like, if you drink alone, then you're an alcoholic,

Brian Heater 25:49
and doing coke alone is like, even kind of next level. With that, it's

Samuel Herring 25:53
really next level. And it was me, it was literally, actually, I've written a lot of lines about, about that simple, the it's very to me, it's like para it's just like, a big it's a huge thing in my world. But that, that staring at your own face in the mirror, that you're like, undoing yourself, and you're just seeing your face come apart, and you're just like, and you just keep going in and you just keep looking at yourself over and over in that mirror, as you're just doing lines after lines, specifically,

Brian Heater 26:21
like the kind of the shift in perception that you get on drugs. You mean, well,

Samuel Herring 26:26
well, just more Well, I mean, that's what I was searching for. A lot of times it was about I wanted to, I mean, I mean, of course, you're courting death. I mean, that's what I was doing. I was courting the end. And it was, I mean, I think it was, it was darker than just an escapism. It may have started as an escapism and a bit of fun, but then it, it was very much like, oh, this takes me to a place, you know, because I, when I first was starting to use a lot, I was writing a lot, and I felt that I was creating, you know, positive things, but, but I wasn't. And then when I got out of that, after two and a half years, I was basically like a gram a day for two and a half years. I didn't have anything. I was completely I was completely gone, that that spirit of myself, that that loved to write and trusted myself, and that confidence I had in myself as an artist was all gone. So it took a few years to to gain that back and to trust myself to go in. But you know, I would slip. I would slip once or twice a year. For many years, I'm now, like, I'm two and a half years clean, and that's I hadn't ever gone a year since I first got clean, clean, you know, like I said, you know, once or twice a year I would, I would slip, you know, when I would have a hard time, and I would be like, I get a case of beer and a couple grams, and I would go and sit in a room somewhere and look at myself in a mirror and be like, you fucking suck. And then I would come out of that room the next day feeling horrible, and I would be like, Okay, we're gonna, we're, you know, and it was all about touching. I would always say it was about touching the bottom, like I needed to touch the bottom so I could come up again, you know. But I was also, that's a very dangerous is a very dangerous game that I was playing alone, you know, with no one to watch me, to know for no one check me. And there was one night I just woke up covered in blood on like my floor, and I had to go and play a festival, and I'd go play a festival in Alabama the next day. So I wake up, I had, oh, man, this is a crazy I was pissing out the window in some fog, and I just I fell asleep and I fell backwards. I didn't fall out the window, but I fell backwards and I hit myself on the bed over my eye. I still have a little scar. I was passed out, and I woke up and my eye was shut. I thought, I thought something happened in my eye, and I I went to the bathroom in the dark and washed my eyes, and then my eye opened up, and it was just like this open wound. So those kinds of moments, and, you know, and that's the whole thing, you know, that I went another two years of of still like courting death every once in a while, and in touch in the bottom, until I was like, I have to go to therapy. I'm in therapy now, and that's helped me out to be accountable to myself. In

Brian Heater 29:41
so far as you know, you've been able to kind of extrapolate that, and in conversations with your therapist, like, what is that impulse

Samuel Herring 29:49
to to self Immolate, courting

Brian Heater 29:51
courting death, as you put it,

Samuel Herring 29:56
that's just, I don't know if he's ever told me. I mean, I. Think that's for me to find. I mean, in my experience, you know, I've had, I've had suicidal ideation since I was, like, 13, and never, never really close to, you know, that's the thing I would, I would never do it to myself. And that's always my thinking. Like the things that have kept me here, I've sung about a lot in future Allen songs. I've sung about a lot in hemlock. The things that have kept me here are remembering the people that I love and the people that love me, because those feelings that make you not want to be here is about feeling unloved and misunderstood, isolated, alone, and so you say, or overwhelmed, you know, overwhelmed by the amount of work you need to do, the things that you can't imagine having to do, that you have to do. And I guess probably being close to it, you know, I there's a thing that I've thought about a lot. Did I put that in a song? I don't when I was, when I was, like, nine years old, I lost. I was like, I was between. It was between eight, eight and nine, or nine and 10. I lost like, three of my grandparents in a year. And I think that that that like amount of death at that time made me very I wasn't like a I wasn't afraid of it for myself, but it just made me very aware of death. And I think, I think I was probably actually depressed and confused and didn't know what to do with it because, because, I mean, a lot of, a lot of that is a lot of people just don't think about suicide, you know. And for those people, I'm like, which is great. I'm like, I'm like, how do you not I know there's, there's like, an old nor McDonald clip where he's like you've never thought about that, you know, like the end of all this misery and pain, The Great Escape you've never thought about that. So, so, you know, I see that. I see that edge. And that's what, that's where cocaine took me, was to that edge, you know, and and, and, and courting, I say courting it because I wasn't like, I hope I die today, but it was like, if I do, I did, I didn't do it on purpose. And I like, I he died doing what he loved, because he's a coke he's a coke head, you know, and shit, man, with fentanyl now, I mean, it's even, it's just really, it's really scary, man, it's really scary, but, but it, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's just like a part of some weird part of me that is also The reason that I am an artist. It's the reason that I create. It's the reason that I sing about the personal stuff. Because I'm trying to find I'm trying to find it for myself. You know, the positive part of the band is that the people that need to find it have found it. You know, there are certain songs that are that we've written that you know, and speaking about this in particular, say, like thrill, thrill is maybe one of the only songs where I've it's explicitly about drug addiction, and my own drug addiction, from future Island standpoint, there's a lot of that within a hemlock. Hemlock earn stuff, but, but I haven't really, I haven't really played with that too much in future islands, just because it's such a I don't know if it's a scary subject for the guys, even though, you know, we have to Mike our drummer is like, almost 14 years sober. AA, you know, he's a, he goes to meetings on the road. He's a, he's a sponsor to many people and and he's like, just such a really positive he's such a positive force within the band. He's been with us for 10 years almost. I think he's right coming up right on 10 years now. But so we actually have, I'm sorry, almost 11 years. We we actually have a lot of this within the band, William Wim. Our basis is, I think, 11 years. So right now, maybe he just got 10 So, and that, that's the thing for bands with it's like people like sex, drugs and rock and roll, right? It's like, Well, not if you keep going, because when you keep going, everyone becomes vegan, straight edge by the by the end, if

Brian Heater 34:44
you're lucky, yeah, yeah, if they're going to be able to do

Samuel Herring 34:46
it for too long. And so, so there's, there's also resources in that sense, like Mike can really, I can have those kinds of conversations with Mike. He understands those feelings. He. Through those same feelings, that's what led him to the crazy places that he went, that got him sober and and so there's like, a positive reflection there, but it's, it's a, it's a tricky line to walk, I think, within within Hemlock, where it's just me, you know, it's completely me and my soul on the line, like I'm really able to say, even as open as I am within future islands like Hemlock is really the cutting diary, you know, it's, it's really going and not, you know, there's so much in there. There's so many words that I don't know if everybody catches everything, but, but that's that, that's the thing, that's the long, the long play of like exercising or exercising, that that like demon and and getting things out, because also it's about, you know, when I write a song and I say something, that I the words that I want to live by myself. You know that I feel are important for me to live by. I write them down, I look at that, I sing it 100 times, and then you record it, and you play it live. And then you saw this people staring back at you, and then all of a sudden, you're accountable to all of these people to live in that way that you wish to live. And and then it may I, it's, it's, it's something that has made me stronger and made me more reflective is actually the act of the act of doing, the act of performing and living and just trying to be honest with the audience in more ways than just like, through the through the words, you know, it's like, no, you guys are like, you're really important. I don't think you realize how important you are. You know, there's a song we have called a dream of you and me, where it says, I wrestle by the sea. A loneliness in me. I asked myself for peace, and I found it at my feet. And the thing that I realized I just gave my I just got chills a little bit. The thing that I realized very recently, and I've said to the audiences a few times, which is like, I don't think you realize that you're the sea, like you are the sea. You're the sea of people. I ask myself for peace. And I have this, I have this place where I feel at home, that I feel like I'm supposed to be here. You know,

Brian Heater 37:23
is that clear to you when you were writing the piece? Or is that something that's really developed over time? No, that metaphor, no, that's

Samuel Herring 37:30
that's something developed. And like I said, I think we find those. We find those, those things in the moments that we need to in, in writing, especially, I'm not like a I'm not a concept writer. I rarely write conceptually. I try to write very I like, I like to write on inspiration and feeling it's like heart over mind, to be less intellectual and more human.

Brian Heater 38:04
It's hard to do, especially if somebody who suffers from, you know, anxiety and is and lives in their own head a lot well

Samuel Herring 38:08
that, but that's where you take it down. You know, you write the clever line and you're like, fuck. You know, don't be clever. Don't be clever, right now, you know, be honest. There's a difference. There's a real difference between being clever and being honest.

And it's the lines. You know, in future islands, I'm not trying to be clever and funny ever. If I write a clever, funny line for Hemlock, then I'm I tickle myself, and I'm like, that's going in there. I've

Brian Heater 38:39
had this conversation with people recently, or I, you know, it's like, Hey, do you think that I would be further along in my career if I didn't joke so often? Because, you know, it is a way of, sort of diffusing the situation, skill to have, and it's important, but, you know, it does just, it's an easy way to derail things. Yeah,

Samuel Herring 38:57
totally. I mean, when I did, I did an acting gig a couple years ago through 22 and I got scouted for this part, and did it because I was going through a crazy time in my life, and I was like, What do I have to lose? I guess I'll try this thing. They set me up with this acting coach, and he he made he was awesome, and he just made me feel really comfortable. And it was cool, because we only had like six sessions, and he kind of helped me get ready for my first day. And then it was and then I was on my own. But in those sessions, there was a moment where we were reading this one scene, and he was like, Why do you keep smiling and kind of like laughing in the scene. And I'm like, Well, that's the gay, you know, he's, he's telling this really intense story, and he's, he's, he's, you know, he's, he's, he's diffusing his emotion because he's uncomfortable, and he's like, I, I don't think that. What he's doing. I think you're I think that's what Sam would do. If Sam was the character, Sam would laugh, laugh it off, to not look at the truth and and not make it uncomfortable. But I don't think that's what the character would do. And he was like, now, now do it, read it again, and try not to smile or, like, scoff or laugh. And I did it, and he was like, How do you feel? And I was like, I feel fucking crazy, man. He's like, Do you feel it? He's like, because I saw it in your face. And I was like, yeah, no, I feel like, all of these, I feel extremely emotional right now. And he's like, yeah, that's because you didn't, you didn't blow off that that steam you let the emotion sit in your chest, and I could see it in your face. And he's like, that's what, that's what you need to do. I mean, it was very simple essence he taught me, but I was able to take that, but a lot of things he taught me, I was able to take to the stage. You know, as much as I was able to take things from the stage into the into the TV show, I was also able to to take what I learned there back onto the stage and try to sit, you know, and you learn in therapy, like, sit in your emotion. Don't just react or or shut down, disassociate, but like Feel it. Feel what it feels like, which is, you know, important to hear as a as a person who has a, you know, substance, substance issues, where you're just like, I'm gonna order some drugs or a pizza. It's like, No, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna feel this for a minute, and then I'm gonna reconsider. But so I keep getting off tangent. I just, no, it's

Brian Heater 41:37
great. It's, it's conversational. I mean, you know, so, so art Lord was that was that diffusing

Samuel Herring 41:46
art Lord was like art Lord was performance art. But

Brian Heater 41:48
there's a sense in which, because, you know, it was humorous and it wasn't, yeah, did you knock yourselves super seriously?

Samuel Herring 41:56
Well, the thing was, art Lord, the concept was not supposed to be funny, and then it was hilarious. And the funny thing so art Lord came about, and that was, you know, me and Garret, our keyboard player. We were best friends through high school. We went off to college together. I went into the art school at East Carolina University, and then in the fall of o2 and then I met William in like, our first day. We had like, three classes together, and by the second class, we were walking the class together, like, Oh, you're heading there. We just became fast friends. We started, like, immediately we're like, we should start a performance art collective. And then we, like, came up with the name for it. It's still the, it's still the LLC that we, we like, operate future islands under, is ideas for house crafts, which was the initial ideas for house craft. Crafts, sketchy, yeah, we're like, we're like, ideas for mouse pads, light beers for house dads. And weird. Just go on and on. And it was just, it was, like, this weird inside joke, and we're like, Well, that'll be the name of our collective. And then we started, you know, we started talking about mate, about having a band, like, over that first Christmas, and then the concept was born. But, but yeah, it started off as a concept band where I was this, this the German Lord of art self proclaimed who had who at the age of 18, was so famous that it just became too much for him. So he he ran. He ran off into the into the woods, never to return again. But he did return to the small town of Greenville, North Carolina, with his with his self portraits that he brought to life. So it was like, but that, you know, the concept was about how we treat like our that kind of like celebrity within our society, like rock stars, you know, famous actors, art stars, and how they can kind of be like, pretentious dickheads and and we're still just like, hanging on their every word. We just want, we just want from them. They can be horrible, but we want from them. So originally, the art Lord came out, and this is like, I hate you all, but you love me, aren't I wonderful? And then people are like, Ah, this is, you know, they just fell in love with this character, and it proved itself, if you know what I'm saying, like it was Will Ferrell and zoo lander, basically precisely. And it was sprockets, you know, it was like, I mean, we just what we were. We wanted to be, like, craft work, you know, and it but so it was. It was born as, as the performance art. But, you know, within eight months, we had kind of run out of these kind of concept songs. And I'd never written songs before outside of rap verse, so it was all new to me. Garrett had never played the keyboard before. William had never played the bass before. So really, all learning together in this new thing and that. That's what made it kind of more it wasn't like a band that we were taking serious. It was like, it was about, like creating these happenings, bringing people together and like having a good time. But then once we kind of rent through, written through that the initial concept, we started writing songs that were, that were they were better because we were getting better, but for me, the lyrics were much more personal, but I was able to hide them, you know? I was able to hide them behind the mask of the character, so I could sing about, like, the isolation of being this great artist. You know, the isolation of being so great makes you feel so alone and and quite literally, I would be like, I, but I feel isolated, you know? So, so it was like, honest to honest to a point, but I could hide behind it. So it was very the character, the humor within it, um, and the and the actual costumery was, it was all, yeah, definitely diffusing the the truth behind it, which was that there was pain behind it, you know, because, because that's the art Lord was like a pained figure. He was, he was supposed to be, he was supposed to be pained and alone. But there was a part of that, that was, that was definitely me, you know, all along. So it was a crazy transition. I'm sorry. I'm it was, it was a crazy transition when we went to future islands, because all of a sudden I had to actually be the face of my words. You know what? I mean? I could, could, no, I could no longer be like, that's, that's not me. That's just a character. I had to and for the first, first few months, it was I didn't really like it. I didn't like that feeling of of having to to own that. And then I, and then I, and then I started to feel like the release of it, what how it felt to to to get those things out and be like, you know, this, this is me, and at the same time, this is, like, right after, because, like, we started the band in February, oh six, and the end of June, oh six, I left Greenville and got, You know, got out of my drug, drug addiction. I mean, you know, you're always an addict that doesn't stop but, but I just what I didn't use every day again and and it took me years to kind of get back and find myself writing again. And so it was all that was part of the process, too, of becoming comfortable in my own skin in in front of people as myself. Now, I'd never felt that way with, you know, doing freestyle battles or that kind of stuff. I felt really comfortable. The the singing makes it slightly more vulnerable. You know, the form of the form of a rap allows a lot more, like I was saying before, like it allows armor. You know,

Brian Heater 47:58
boasting is kind of built in, yeah,

Samuel Herring 48:00
yeah, boasting. And it's, you know, that's, that's kind of what hip hop was born on. But being strong, you know, being strong in telling hard stories was what I connected with, like listening to Charis one, you know, early on. And that's, that's like, what, that's what he gave me, and that's what I do with future islands. So that's, like, the thing that it's, it's so connected, um, at the

Brian Heater 48:30
top, I was commenting on, on your earnestness. But another thing that really jumps out to me about you, and the way you go through the world is that you, you are very self analytical to the point where you're able to sort of go back and describe why you were doing what you were doing. I mean, one is that something that only really comes with hindsight. And two, is there a point in which, especially as it pertains to art, that you can be overly analytical to the point that it kind of ruins the

Samuel Herring 49:03
thing. Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean being over analytical as well as an artist, keeps a lot of great artists from ever being heard. You know that perfectionism is both like really important to being an artist, and also can be damning. You know, if you're not, at some point, you have to be like, This isn't mine anymore, because that is essentially what you're doing when you go from from creating and pouring over something, you know, in and out of the studio, recording it and releasing it, once you release it, it's not yours. And I don't know if you know journalists or even music lovers or music haters, understand how hard it is when someone's just like, I heard two songs, I hate this record, and you're just like, oh, it's been two years.

Brian Heater 49:59
Yeah, I was thinking. About this too. Like, as it relates to your hip hop career, where people are like, Oh, you rap too. Like, it's a side thing, but really, it's this thing you've been passionate about for your entire life. Yeah,

Samuel Herring 50:08
well, that, I mean, that's one of the reasons that I don't really blast it out there. Like, I don't really, I don't really promote it because, also I don't want it to become, you know, future islands is like, it's my art, but it's also become my job, you know. And there's a lot of business involved. There's a lot of decisions that need to be made. There's a lot of money that goes around. There's families that need to be fed, not just within the band, but, you know, the crew that are, you know, the amazing people that go out on the road with us, you know, like, those things go into when I'm tired and I'm like, I don't know if I want to tour next year. It's like, but people need to make money. And it's not just the band, it's the it's the crew. Like, they need to work, and we don't want them to, you know, we don't want them to just go think that we've forsaken them, you know. So those, those things are really important. And with Hemlock, I want it to be about the love and about the expression and about all of that, and I don't want to have to sign contracts and and do tours and do tons of press because, because I want it to still, I want it to always be something that that that gives to me, you know? And that's really, I know that seems strange, but I think that's, you know, I'm also, I respect the artists who are like, I can just do this for myself. I don't always believe them.

Brian Heater 51:36
What do you mean? I can do this for myself? Oh, making art for the sake of art. Yeah,

Samuel Herring 51:42
yeah. I like, I think there are people that really can do that. I think, I think for me, what I found is, and this goes against, kind of those early ideas and that, like, you know, making art for art's sake, and how the sacrifice of that. But now I know that for my art to work. And what my art is about. It is about people, and it's about, it's about creating spaces for people to be in, you know. And that's not that's, that's within those head spaces. It's also, you know, of course, it is about my personal release. And within art there's always ego. There has to be ego, or it's not honest, not not ego as necessarily a bad thing, but just there has to be the self. You know, the self is like, kind of all there is to explore in art. Now, you know, if you can, not necessarily, I should, I shouldn't make that blanket statement, but, but for me, my art isn't in my in my music isn't complete until it it gets to people. And I guess I'm even second guessing myself there, because I don't really like doing rap shows, because it's just a different experience. It's it's hard. You're

Brian Heater 53:01
still releasing it into the world, though it's still, yeah, people, yeah,

Samuel Herring 53:05
totally. But with future islands, I feel like those songs, I've always said, they aren't complete until they're performed live, you know. And sometimes, like those songs, aren't done till they're they've been played like 100 times, you know, because you really, you really find the truth of the songs in the reflection of the audience. You know. You find what you know. It's just you know. It's just the same thing of like, you can sit with yourself and analyze yourself and know everything that's wrong with you, but you don't make any progress in changing that, until you tell someone else, and then they look at you with with like pity, anger, disdain, frustration, curiosity, and then you're like, oh, that's how that feels, or, you know, and then it gives you another level. So then you reflect, you know, I always talk about that accountability, of of like, your of for me, my truth. And like, you know, I thought I knew what was wrong with me for years, but that didn't change. I was still repeating the same cycles. And then when I started to talk with somebody, it allowed me a mirror to see who I actually was and what I was actually doing. Let me,

Brian Heater 54:15
let me put this out there. And you could shoot this down if this is totally wrong, but I maybe a lot of it comes down to the words themselves. From the standpoint of, when you're rapping, it's literal, when you're singing these songs, maybe it's more metaphorical, and therefore open to interpretation, and really requires that kind of reflection from the audience. You

Samuel Herring 54:35
actually, yeah, I think you're right. I had to break that window. Well, no, I literally have a line in one of my in a hemlock song that says, you know, don't read between the lines. Just read the fucking lines, you know. And that's asking, that's asking the, really, for critics, it's like, you know, can you you like, don't try to under. Understand what this means. I'm telling you a story. I'm like, listen to the story. I'm giving you everything but, but, yeah, within future islands, I want it to be much more open, and I speak in a much more universal way, to try to try to create a very a broader picture for people to reflect within and find themselves in, to understand, you know, in the simpler ideas. So, yeah, yes, I think you're right. I don't know what to do with that. Have you

Speaker 1 55:31
ever been over to a friend's house to eat and the food was just no good? I stand the path of distress with intentions to address my intentions to impress where my righteousness went. I'm fighting this shit, the feeling that my demons keep it, the poison.