The most recent stage of Bruce Sudano’s career began in earnest just over a decade ago. His wife and long-time creative partner, the legendary Donna Summer, passed in 2012. With their children now grown, Sudano restarted his solo career. The move, he notes, felt like nearly restarting a decades-long musical journey from scratch. Transcript available here.
Bruce Sudano 0:12
My only complaint is that there is not a direct flight from Los Angeles to Milan. So anytime I travel, it's always becomes a journey for a day to get from one place to the other. Like, on Thursday, I go to Miami to get on this on playing on the on the blue cruise and it goes out of Miami. So a year ago, there was a direct flight from Milan to Miami, and now I went to book it and nope, no more direct flight, I have to go through London. So, yeah, that's the only downside and otherwise, in terms of when I'm here or there, you know, it's, it's, you know, there there, I find them to be complementary, both places one to the other, they're very different. But both work for me, you know, so
Brian Heater 1:07
complementary, in what sense? Well,
Bruce Sudano 1:09
they're very different in terms of climate, and. And, in terms of, you know, my life in either places are very different than LA, you know, I have many friends, you know, I have daughters and grandchildren there. And, you know, I'm kind of like on the American time frame. And when I'm here, I have a lot more space and a lot more time during the day, because everybody in America is asleep while I'm up. Because I'm basically nine hours ahead of La six hours ahead of New York. So I have a lot of time to, you know, daydream and write songs and go walks and read books and and, you know, then usually about late in the afternoon is kind of when, you know, other stuff starts happening. So I basically get a full day of just daydreaming, which I like to do.
Brian Heater 2:17
Are you a morning person? Generally?
Bruce Sudano 2:21
Not really. I mean, I probably wake up at seven and, you know, go from there, but not like a super early morning person. And I'm a really slow riser. You know, it's like, so I wake up at seven, and then I'll you know, sit in bed and I'll look at emails and read the news, and I'll drink a couple of cups of coffee. And, you know, my, my wife who is Italian and who runs an art gallery, you know, she's up and out, you know, and I just kind of get up but I don't get out. I kind of like only lollygag my way into my morning and work my way through, you know, some coffee in a shower and maybe a Pilates class and and then we're to a piano or guitar or something like that. You know, I've
Brian Heater 3:29
been dealing with some some back problems over the past year and a colleague recommended Pilates. I was a little a little hesitant at first because I had tried yoga during the pandemic and didn't love it. But, man, I really liked Pilates and I can't quite nail down why but I've really enjoyed my time doing it.
Bruce Sudano 3:51
Yeah, Pilates is I've probably been doing it 10 years now. And it's, it's a great way to stay limber to, you know, stay kind of tone and so, yeah, I love it as well. And, you know, I remember you know, in the past I kind of always, you know, like looked askance at Pilates, you know, it'd be like, no, like, okay, Pilates really. But but it's, it's it's a great thing to do. And you can do it as you get older, you know, and you can get better I still get better. I still get stronger. You know, and so yeah, do it. It's good. What
Brian Heater 4:48
what tipped you in that direction? What finally won you over?
Bruce Sudano 4:53
Well, you know, I'm a bit of a thick head. You know, my late wife did Pilates for a number of years. And, you know, I had the whole you know, I had the the reformer in my house. You know, I had the Cadillac in my house, I had all the gear in my house. And she was always on my case to do it. I was like, No, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it, you know. And then, you know, life twists and turns. And, you know, I lose my wife, she dies, she passes away. I have to reconfigure my life. Figure out how do I navigate after being married for 32 years? And who am I and where am I and, and, you know, I meet another woman, and, you know, she's big time in Pilates is like, you need to do Pilates. And I'm like, Okay, I think I'll finally try it. And then, you know, I tried it, and I'm a convert the
Brian Heater 5:57
universe was kind of pointing you in that direction. It sounds like, exact.
Bruce Sudano 6:00
Exactly, exactly. So yeah. Universal do that. It
Brian Heater 6:06
will and it will repeatedly even if you try not to pay attention to it. Yeah. Use the phrase reconfigure my life, which, which, you know, I think it's almost, It's understated. A would be in any situation where one loses a spouse, but you not only lost a spouse, but you, you know, you've you have these children, you should and she was really, like, the two of you were tied together so closely in professional terms, as well. It just, it sounds like, there's an a sense in which you kind of just had to completely start everything over.
Bruce Sudano 6:50
Yeah, I mean, it wasn't starting everything over because, honestly, I had songwriting, you know, I mean, that's always been kind of, like the soul of who I am. And in that moment of being lost, it was a refuge, it was an outlet, it was a creative tool. And it was the door to my evolving of my life and career. So, you know, and, you know, and it's kind of always been that for me, I mean, it could be even, you know, in smaller situations where, you know, you, you, you feel off kilter for whatever reason for a few weeks, and you're like, Well, what's going on, you know, for me, it's always like, when I get back to the instrument, and I just start to sing and play. And, and I have an idea, and all of a sudden, I get this kind of, like, sigh of relief of like, okay, now I know who I am, it, you know, it just kind of centers me for everything. And, and so, you know, when, when Donna died, it became my instinctual place to go. And it, it kind of showed me the way out. And through, and you know, and it gave me a lot of creative inspiration, it gave me a lot of real deep emotion and life experience to create out of, and it helped set the identity of who I was, to be an EA to evolve into as an artist, you know, so these last, you know, 12 years, 12 years now that Dan has been gone, I've been on this journey as a solo artists, you know, singing my own songs and touring around and building an audience and growing and, you know, taking on different challenges and refining what I do and you know, so life is full, you know, and somewhere along the way, you know, you try to figure out, you know, can I fall in love again, should I, you know, wow, I can be alone, I hate being alone. You know, all this stuff is songs that I was able to write all these all these challenges and all these emotions that I was dealing with and and then yeah, then wow, you fall in love again, like wow. And that then, you know, you could write a whole album of falling in love songs. And so, you know, that's kind of how it's been for me in this west part of my journey.
Brian Heater 10:00
Identity is a really interesting word in this context, because there is a sense in which you were really discovering yourself not only personally, but also musically, because so much of your output was tied to her songs and songs that she performed. So, there is a sense in which you really did have to figure out who you were read on. adhesively Absolutely.
Bruce Sudano 10:26
You know, I mean, even personally, you know, you know, it was almost like, I didn't know who I was supposed to be, because, you know, we were, we were married, we were together for 35 years. So it was like, who I who I was when I when, you know, you know, when I started my relationship with Donna, and who I was, when that ended, you know, I was a completely different person. But so I only had been the guy before and the guy that I was then I didn't know, I didn't know who I was supposed to be now, you know, because I couldn't, I couldn't go back to being the guy who, who was single and in his 20s, you know, that wouldn't work, you know, so I was like, okay, so what is this, you know, and, you know, creatively, you know, so much of our life, as you said, was intertwined. And so much of what I did was related to Donna and her career and our family, and which was fine. You know, I did my first solo album in 1980. You know, I did four albums with the Brooklyn dreams. And then I did a solo album in 1980. And that was also the same year I got married, that Donna and I got married. And it was at that point that I realized that there was no way I can maintain me trying to be a solo artist, Donner having the career that she was having, us having children to raise, maintaining a family, maintaining our life, I, you know, I said, Okay, I'm happy, I always wanted to be a songwriter, I don't need Fico. I can still write songs, I can write the dawn, I can write for other people, that's fine. And so I put, you know, the singer, songwriter solo guy down, not knowing whether or not I would ever pick them up again. And I kind of did in a sort of half hearted way. You know, at some point in, like, the year before, Dawn, I got sick, she kept saying to me, okay, now it's your time. Oh, the, you know, the girls have grown at it, you know, you have, you know, now it's time for you to be you. And I'd be like, Well, okay, I mean, I mean, what do you mean, you know, and I started recording and, you know, not really having a sense of direction of what, who I really what the core of what I was as an artist was it was, you know, it was a little unclear, but I was searching. But once I hit this first album, that I started writing, when Donald got sick, I really broke it down to you know, guitar and voice. And, you know, and, and because I just wanted it to be the solid foundation of guitar and voice, I didn't want any real, to distract it to dilute it to, you know, I wanted to make sure that the song was solid, and it had to stand on its own. And I have to be able to, as an artist, perform that song by myself. And so that was the concept of how I began it. And so, in all the productions of the records that I've done since then, it's been an ongoing, kind of, you know, evolution of production in terms of minimal and how much they add and what not to add. And this current album, talking ugly truth, Talon, pretty lies, is kind of like, the evolution into me being, you know, secure enough in my identity as an artist to really dress it up in a more post modern kind of production. And so, that's kind of how I wound up here.
Brian Heater 14:45
What does postmodern mean in this context?
Bruce Sudano 14:48
You know, to me, it's, you know, it's a contemporary production, you know, modern sounds, you know, but at At the same time, it has a foundation in the past in terms of genre, it's, you know, it's it's, it's contemporary production, but it still has a sense of tradition, in what it's doing. It
Brian Heater 15:21
strikes me too, that whether consciously or, or unconsciously stripping things down to just a voice in a guitar is, is really sort of going in the opposite direction, you know, your Donna's work, like, famously, the work that you did with Georgie or murder, you know, in the disco era is very, in a lot of ways is very maximalists. So it, it's almost as if this was a response to some of that early work.
Bruce Sudano 15:56
Oh, absolutely. Because because, you know, when you, you know, I've been most of my life, you know, as a collaborator, you know, and, you know, in collaborating, you, you know, play a different role. You know, when it came down to me by myself, that's why I think, I felt like I had to build it from the ground up. Because, you know, when you're working with other people, you're compromising, and you're acquiescing, you're serving, you know, a different purpose. You know, when you're writing a song, it's for another artists, it's being produced by a producer of that artists. So it's a different thing. You know, that's why, you know, in agreeing with you that that's kind of why I broke it down to starting from, you know, just to guitar. And that's why I'm saying now now, with the new record, it's evolved back into more of a production, you know, then when I first started, you know, because I feel like I'm secure enough, you know, in who I am as an artist, now that I can that I didn't have fun and do that again, you know, to do it more,
Brian Heater 17:24
was there a fear initially putting yourself out there in that way? And without that, you one of the nice things about being in a band, and you know, having full music production is not necessarily do you have a place to hide, but that you're not taking, that everything doesn't necessarily fall on your shoulders?
Bruce Sudano 17:46
You're absolutely right, you know, and I was hiding, you know, and I knew I was hiding. And so, you know, on the psychological side of all this, when I arrived at this place, you know, and I had to choose, well, do I go on with my life? Or do I curl up in a corner and just, you know, you know, let it go. It was the fact that, psychologically, I knew that I had been hiding all these years, because it was easy, and it was comfortable. And, and, and, but at the same time, I understood that I had this, you know, not to use a pompous word, because I don't mean it in that way. But, you know, I felt I had this calling to be this guy. And I avoided it, because I was afraid to be to do it by myself, I was afraid to sing on my own. I didn't want to bear all that weight. I didn't want to bear all the weight of you know, and the truth of the matter is, I believe, in looking back at myself is I probably wasn't even ready, then. It took me all this time. You know, and, you know, we spoke a little bit about, you know, how life will do its thing with you earlier, you know, it took me all this time, to where I got to this time where I was actually ready. You know, it was, you know, I almost could have said to myself, Bruce, it's now or never, you know, so you've avoided this all these years. And now it's time to put yourself actually put yourself on the line. And, or not, you know, but I chose to and I'm very glad that I did you know, because, as we, you know, can easily recognize, you know, a big part of life is facing your fears. As you
Brian Heater 19:52
said earlier, it wasn't exactly starting from scratch, but you know, perhaps there is a sense in which it was in that Certainly you can't take for granted that there's going to be an audience there when he first set out and do this.
Bruce Sudano 20:06
Oh, there was no audience, I, you know, I still don't have a really big audience, people, you know, you know, I'm far from a household name. You know, again, I was always in collaboration and in service to another purpose. So in many ways, it was it was starting from scratch. And, but there again, I mean, it's why not, you know, you know, why not? It's, the goal is, you know, my goal is to improve what I do keep refining what I do, keep staying engaged with life, still responding to that engagement. And, you know, thus far I remain inspired. So, you know, and that's the, that's the core of it, you know, and, you know, and then I also have this model of keep living, keep writing, you know, so so, you know, so far, it served me well,
Brian Heater 21:15
you owe it to yourself to set realistic expectations to like, for example. Don, summer was a superstar, she was a she was a genre defining superstar, you have to you have to put your your expectations for success into perspective.
Bruce Sudano 21:38
Yeah, yeah. Well, absolutely. And that's why I'm saying my expectation of success is to keep improving, to keep refining my craft, to keep being inspired and responding emotionally and creatively. And the rest of the rest of the things will happen as they're happening, will supposed to will, will happen as they're supposed to happen. You know, those are things that you you can't control, you know, a big part of many people's lives, especially artists, you know, there's a lot of set, there's a lot of serendipity and success, you know, and, you know, the thing is, is that you have to show up, you have to do your job, you have to whatever, but, you know, you also have to be lucky, you know, if for lack of a better word, you know, I mean, Donna was supremely talented, you know, she had mazing voice, she was, you know, a great entertainer, a great personality, a very empathetic person, you know, but she had a great team, you know, she, you know, Giorgio is great. Neil Bogart was a visionary. You know, there was so many elements that come into play with that kind of success, where and there's, you know, and there's a synergy that happens when, you know, you can try and create the chemistry and you always do, but, you know, when it actually happens, it's something that is actually beyond you. And it's something that you're swept up in. And and you're just flying along in that moment. And, and, you know, so So yeah, I don't know where I was going. But that's a way that
Brian Heater 23:45
I think you're spot on. You know, and this is something, something I talked to artists about a lot, and I appreciate when they couldn't recognize it in themselves that we almost need to destigmatize luck. As you know, we use luck as it as almost a bad word as though saying the word luck takes away from the talents that you have, but those talents aren't there. You're not going to have that success in the first place. So I like I like that people can can can re appropriate that and can appreciate that, that yeah, that you could also be the most talented person in the world and that things could just never quite hit, right.
Bruce Sudano 24:27
Yeah. And that happens more often than not. You know, I know, I know. I know, many, many talented people who, you know, for whatever reason, don't get anywhere, you know. So it's
Brian Heater 24:45
interesting, because so, you know, so much of this work that you're doing now, as you said, was really an effort to discover yourself and to almost have the second or third or whatever number career that you're on at this point. But then going back and reconnecting with it, a song like bad girls, which, you know, was one of her signature songs. What was that experience, like,
Bruce Sudano 25:12
how I do the song and how and how I started doing the song in my, in my shows, is I say that, you know, bad girls was a very big record, you know, it had great horn parts, and it had great hooks, and it had a great rhythm track. And it was a number one pop song and a number one r&b song and, and number one dancing all around the world. But this song was written on an acoustic guitar, just like this. And this is how we wrote it, you know, and so that's the essence of how I approached my version or bad girls, I just did it basically the way we wrote it. And, and, you know, and, and when I do it, that way, it sheds a whole different light on the song. You know, it still has a rhythm. But the story of the song and the import of the song, and the message of the song seems to resonate, stronger, then, you know, Donna's record, because Donald's record was all about to toot, beep, beep and, you know, and that was great. It's an amazing record, you know, and, and I'm not at all taking anything away from that record. That is a great record. But, you know, I'm just, I'm just saying when I do it, and I break it down to where, you know, what the, what it was inspired from, and it's just the words and the guitar are more or less, it has its own life, and it also has its own resonance, because as a song, it holds up, you know, and, and that's the thing, you know, when Donna and I used to write songs, we, we would do two things, you know, we would keep the music. Basic. In other words, it would be either I'd be on a guitar or a piano. And we would do the song slow we. And so this way, we can analyze every aspect of the song, every aspect of the Lyric, every aspect of the melody, is it holding up? Is it holding up? You know, and, and then, you know, you add a little rhythm to it. And, you know, but you want always want to come with the foundation of a strong song. That's, that's really the most important thing. I've
Brian Heater 27:49
heard the sentiment echoed from a lot of musicians. And sometimes there's a reason why cliches are cliches Is that is that a great song is one that that can be played on any instrument.
Bruce Sudano 28:03
Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's the thing. So so, you know, and that also speaks to why I wanted to break it down in the beginning of just the guitar on the voice, you know, so the song how to be able to hold up, you know, on its own,
Brian Heater 28:21
you know, I grew up in that I grew up in the 80s, and 90s. And I grew up in a time when I think disco was still a bad word. For a lot of people, like, you know, I grew up, I grew up listening to a lot of punk rock. And I think that that's something that people have since come around to, but that critics didn't appreciate at the time was that the skeleton was always there, you know, a great song is a great song, regardless of how much production is layered on top of it. Yeah, you know,
Bruce Sudano 28:57
and, you know, the, this go, bad rap, you know, it doesn't exist without some truth to it, you know, beak because of the the bigness, it's not the word I'm really looking for, but the extravagance, let's say, of the production of the strings, and the horns and the fall on the floor, and, you know, and the bells and the whistles, and all this stuff. There were many times where you had a song that wasn't so great, you know, and, you know, I think that you know, that's something that, you know, Donna and I, you know, and Georgia and Pete and everybody in that camp, you know, you know, we all have made a commitment to one wanting to write really great songs and record great songs, you know, whether it'd be MacArthur Park or whatever. I mean, you know, it's you know, just to stick with the foundation of start with a great song, and let's go from there. So I think that commitment was there. But, but for Donna, but But I think, you know, in you know, there were other disco songs that that didn't have that, you know, methodology let's say. But we could say Avenger I'm sure there were punk songs that that were trite and then there was, you know others that were screaming the truth. You know,
Brian Heater 30:39
it's funny I was talking to a friend of mine the other week, somebody who I talk to about music a lot and speaking of things that for whatever reason have fallen out of favor and just don't get the love that they deserve. I don't understand. I mean, I have a theory and we could talk about this. But largely, I don't understand why Tommy James isn't regarded as just one of the great performers of the air. I mean, when you look down at the just great all time songs that he performed, I just don't understand why he's not on that shortlist for people.
Bruce Sudano 31:16
You know, look, I'm right there with you. I'm a big proponent of Tommy James should be in a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I don't know what the answer to this question is. But first of all, one thing about Tommy that I recognized now, because I spend a lot of time in Europe is that he's not famous in Europe. Oh, that's
Brian Heater 31:45
interesting, because he was really in a lot of ways. He was one of those almost responses to the British Invasion over
Bruce Sudano 31:51
here. Yes. Yeah. But, but he even in the UK, you know, because I tour in UK you know, and sometimes I'll play tighter and tighter in my set. You know, I'll be telling my story and I'll say oh, yeah, I was in a band I had hit record with the song you know, and they don't know I mean, they know Moni Moni Yeah, you know, they know if I say Tommy James they they may or may not know by se Moni Moni they are like, oh, and maybe that's because the Billy Idol I you know, so so. But, I mean, I never verbalizing this now. I've never really verbalized it before, because I never really thought about that. But that that may be a reason why, but you know, when you think about I Think We're Alone Now Hank, even Hanky Panky. Not you know, that's an early, sexy, you know, rock and roll 60s, GarageBand song you know, I mean, it's
Brian Heater 32:59
I would say I think people know I Think We're Alone Now but for a similar reason why they might know Moni Moni, which is because of the Tiffany song.
Bruce Sudano 33:06
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, and, but, you know, you got you got Crimson and Clover, you know, and they probably know it because of Joan Jett. You know, crystal
Brian Heater 33:16
blue persuasion was on Breaking Bad famously.
Bruce Sudano 33:20
Yeah. You know, I mean, great and great records, they're great records, you know, you know, I mean, you know, Tommy was, you know, I always say he was my mentor, he was the first person to take me to a recording studio. You know, the first records I saw being made was Crimson and Clover and that album. You know, I, you know, so I am forever indebted to him. I, you know, he should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I, you know, you know, and so maybe that's part of the reason why those are those other things that I would say. And also, you know, Tommy is a very humble guy. He, you know, he, he doesn't toot his own horn, very well, he, you know, he's, he's nice as he can be. He's very gracious. He's, you know, he's very, has a very cheerful personality. But his own sense of ego and pride and pride is you know, not, you know, it's, it's really, in a very humble place. And I had nothing but great things to say about him in great respect for him as an artist, and I hope that, you know, something changes in that awareness thing, you know, because things can change quickly. You know, like, one little thing could happen and, you know, look at Tracy Chapman, you know, so
Brian Heater 34:56
I guess this is a rare opportunity. I can bounce this off of you, but I'm curious to get your take Got it. And I was thinking about this last week my, my theory. So, you know, I talked, I mentioned, you know, obviously like the response to the British invasion but but on top of that, I think it's because I think in a way him happening at the time that he did and then the the world of music shifting so dramatically into like, largely because of the Beatles, but shifting dramatically into the album's for albums versus singles. I think that that had a big impact on his legacy.
Bruce Sudano 35:33
Yeah, it probably did, he was definitely caught in that window. You know, of where, you know, it was, you know, the bubble gum was the phrase that was used back then, you know, it's bubblegum music, and then it became, you know, album rock. And, you know, he probably got caught in that window, as you're saying, and the perception of him at that moment, was probably not as highly regarded. As, you know, as you know, as he's been, as his music has stood the test of time, you know, you know, so, but I think you're exactly right in that was a very distinct shift, right there at night King. You know, the late 60s into 1971, you know, and 69, you know, and he tried, and I, in many ways, succeeded. In hindsight. I mean, you know, there's the long version of Crimson and Clover, there's that whole album, you know, where, you know, he, that crystal blue persuasion is also on, where, you know, I mean, he's producing in very, you know, cool, experimental, you know, ways. And, you know, and that was Tommy producing, as well, you know, so,
Brian Heater 37:11
production work has always, it's always fascinating to me, especially for people who are also musicians and who create their own music. You know, it seems, it seems to me, I'm very much not a musician. I just talked to a lot of them. But it seems to me that the best producers are ones who give themselves up to the band that they're working with and understand what makes the band work and then sort of almost like morph into that function. Yeah.
Bruce Sudano 37:46
Well, I mean, yes, you know, there. There are different kinds of, I
Brian Heater 37:54
guess I'm saying that as we were just discussing Giorgio, Giorgio Moroder, which, and he's obviously one of the best, but he very much had his own thing as well. So I take I take that back in such a concrete state. Because
Bruce Sudano 38:05
it was mind my mind went to Mike Lang, you know, for the same reason that you're pointing out at Georgia, but yeah, you know, but there are different kinds of producers, you know, and, you know, they're, you know, there's, there was Phil Ramone, who I thought was great, you know, and he was somebody who kind of have like, shaped himself to the artist, you know, a little bit more than most and but yeah, production is an inter is an interesting thing. For me, as as an artist, you know, I, I don't know, I think this is this may be the sixth album that I've done in the last 10 years or something like that. And I've, you know, I've used a few different producers, and, you know, although I don't collaborate with songwriting, I haven't, in these years, I do collaborate, in terms of, and I enjoy seeing what somebody else can bring to my song and my music and what I do. So, you know, in on this most recent record, you know, Ken Lewis
was my first record with Ken and, you know, he brought a whole other, you know, energy to it, you know, and which I, you know, I'm really happy with. So, you bring
Brian Heater 39:47
up something and it hadn't even occurred, it hadn't occurred to me, but it makes a lot of sense that, you know, we were talking about the songs that you're writing before, and that maybe there was a sense in which They can't necessarily be a pure expression of yourself because you're writing them for somebody else. But also, yeah, I hadn't take into into account that. I don't know. I mean, I may be wrong in this. But is it right to say that pretty much all of your music up until you really started doing solo stuff was they were all co writes?
Bruce Sudano 40:22
Well, not not everything, but the majority of the success that I had was as the CO writer, put it that way. And you know, you know, one of my favorite songs that I ever wrote, wasn't a big hit song, but it was a song that Donna cut, and it was called Alma rainbow. And, you know, there, there were a couple of songs that song and I think, starting over again, which was a call right with Donna that there was a hit a country hit for Dolly Parton. You know, I look at those two songs, as, you know, essentially Bruce songs that in that, you know, they kind of a highlight my strength as a songwriter, you know, and, and what my strengths as a songwriter. But other than that, you know, yeah, everything was was cool, right. And, you know, the things that I did, you know, for the Jacksons, and that that's those were co writes with Michael Martin and Michael, you know, he's a great producer, and, you know, a great musician. And so with him, you know, it was, frequently he would give me a track, and I would just have to write to the track, you know, and, you know, I would get with Jermaine and try to understand what Tourlane was going on, in his head, or his emotion, get some outstanding understanding of who he was, as a person were, you know, and get some fuel to write some words that he could sing, you know, and feel like, he related to them. So, you know, but a song, like starting over again, that dolly did that, you know, that was a personal song. And that was a song about the divorce of my parents, you know, and it was only because Donna decided to sing it on the Johnny Carson show one night that dolly even heard the song and decided to record it, you know, otherwise it, you know, may never have seen the light of day,
Brian Heater 42:43
was that written to be a country song?
Bruce Sudano 42:47
No, it was, you know, it was just, it was just a Bruce song. You know, it was a song I wrote on the piano, and you know, but I'm also, you know, I'm not 100% on this philosophy, but, you know, I think many songs can be dressed up in different genres, you know, and that's where production can really come into play. That's what duction does. Very, you know, production can influence the direction of a song very easily, you know, so, I mean, even Dolly's version of the song, if you listen to it, it doesn't really sound that country that almost sounds, you know, like an adult contemporary production of that time, you know. You know, and when I do it, and I just do it on an acoustic guitar, it sounds like you know, it just sounds like a singer songwriter singing. Oh, you know,
Brian Heater 43:55
I asked partially, this has probably been really interesting for you to, to watch unfold. But, I mean, obviously, again, Beyonce is one of those genre defining superstars, but that that there was any surprise or any backlash to her recording a country album is is strikes me as very strange for a number of reasons. But one of which is, you know, I think that some of the work that you and Donna were doing definitely crossed over decades ago.
Bruce Sudano 44:26
Yeah, yes. Yeah, there's, there's another song on the bad girls album called On my honor. Which very easily could be, you know, a country song. And, yeah, and it was also interesting. I did a couple of weeks ago, I played at the Folk Alliance International Convention, and I did starting over that night and I introduced it because this was basically The the week that Beyonce song went number one on the country chart and, and everybody was still talking about Tracy Chapman and you know, and I said, you know, Tracy Chapman may have been the first you know, black female to have a number one country right at number one country song by herself. But you know, Donna Summer and I co wrote a number one country song for Dolly Parton you know, 30 years ago. And so, you know, in some ways, you know, Donna broke that barrier, as well.
Brian Heater 45:39
It's one of those things it's like, you know, you're describing Tommy James as being gracious and humble, where I wonder if there's just a certain extent to which it's like yeah, I mean, you know, she she broke those barriers but you can't let that take away from the work that people are doing now and the fact that like, yeah, those still those barriers still very much need to be broken. Absolutely.
Bruce Sudano 46:07
Absolutely. You know, I continued my thought and introducing the song was I you know, I said change you know, I said I said in my point in saying this is that change happens slowly until it actually happens and breaks and then it's sudden you know, it's like you know, you don't notice that things are changing because it's like a simmering that's going on and it is it's like all these atoms are moving around and then all of a sudden, boom, there's the explosion, you know, but there there have been seeds of that, you know, for a long long time. So we
Brian Heater 46:40
can we can officially say that it's happened when these things no longer feel notable.
Bruce Sudano
Exactly.