It’s not easy being a pioneer, but Jim Skafish came out of the gate swinging. In the late-70s, the Chicago musician became the first American signed to Miles Copeland’s hugely influential IRS records. His band’s first LP, 1980’s self-titled Skafish, failed to catch fire, owing to delays and poor production. Three years later, Conversations, was met with its own pushback, as it marked a major sonic departure. Skafish, a classically trained pianist whose current work is more easily classified as jazz, is long overdue for a reexamination and a pioneering force in musical, political and non-conforming.
Jim Skafish 0:00
There's so much to begin with. And let me say, first off, as you know, I released conversation in the rejects, which is the expanded reissue of my second album. And that came out in December of last year. It's only a few months ago, but it was last year on the 29th. So with that, right now, working on that, you know, doing some video things, getting it out there for people and doing that. So the main thing right now is that record, there's a million other things going on at the same time. But one of the things that I've been in the process of doing for years, is reissuing the old catalogue, things that were reissued that are out of print, and also reissued not reissuing releasing for the first time, a lot of recordings that go back into the early 1970s. So we've got early recordings, recordings that are, you know, not so back in the day, both studio and live, we've got other releases that were out there, that I'm in the process of reissuing also composing all the time. There's also a lot of back catalogue of songs that I've written. So it's kind of doing all those things sort of at once, how do you budget your time generally, it's really, really hard. And I realize we're in a world now where everybody would say, That's right, say it like everybody is going through that. So what it is that I have to do is really try and have a project mapped out as well as I can. And let's say pragmatism is not my strongest point. And where say, being in the moment, letting whatever happens, happened, you know, flow through me, that's more my default. So trying to be inspirational and pragmatic at the same time. So say, with conversation in the rejects, I worked on it for 20 years. And it's not to say that it was only that project that I was working on. But during that 20 year period, there was so many different things that had to happen. And at a certain point, having it mapped out was better than just kind of flying by the seat of your pants to use an old cliche. So it's question of trying to be inspirational, which comes really naturally to me being spontaneous, which comes really naturally to me. And being sort of in this linear thing of, well, we're in physical form, and you've got to map it out. And you've got to go from point one to two to three. And that is not that natural. To me. It's an acquired skill for me. And I've acquired it out of necessity, more than enjoyment, if you know what I'm saying. In other words, being organized, making sure that everything makes sense. You know, it's all written out on paper, in your notebooks, whatever online. That's what I've been doing. So it's a question of trying to do that. And my tendency is to take on too much, because of how excited I get about everything. So I keep it pulled back enough, where it's borderline too much, most of the time, but I've at least got a handle on it. Because like I said, with conversation in the rejects. It was a tremendously complicated project to release. I mean, starting with the idea of, I had the tapes. So I had all the tapes, which most artists don't have the tapes to their work. And I happen to have all the tapes to 24 track tapes, and the two track masters in 2004. I took them in Chicago recording company, and had them digitized to Pro Tools, which was also complicated, because the tapes had to be baked, they reach a point. And most musicians obviously know this, where the tapes can no longer be played because the magnet magnetic particles are, I guess you could say they're straying from the tape or they're not as attached to the tape, I'm not sure the exact it breaks down over time. You right, right of the technical terminology. So they had to be baked in ovens. So I'm in the studio. Tape is in the oven, it comes out, we get one play out of it. And so that went on for quite some time. It wasn't just a one day kind of a thing. So once that happened, then I had to get the legal rights back. And getting legal rights back was also complicated and I was able to achieve it. Then from there, a lot of what happened was the creative project, you know, the creative process, excuse me, what's it going to be called? And went through a lot of different titles. You could go, conversation, expand, and I thought it was so boring. It's terrible, right? And then I had conversation in the music, they wouldn't let you hear. And I thought well, that's good, but it's too long. So finally I settled on a little clunky, yellow, clunky that's a perfect word. I like that word. It's a little clunky. So if you're going to say it, people are going to then probably abbreviate it with letters like C A T, you know, they're going to do it like that. So then we came up with conversation in the rejects and I felt that was really good, especially because the main point of this record is that it wasn't just reissuing the conversation record. It was a whole nother record of the tracks that IRS records hated. They hated them so much, and consider them to be just so controversial. And what makes it kind of an oxymoron, I guess you could say is that they were known for being the super trailblazing label. And then, here it was, I pushed it too far. They hated it. They wouldn't release it. And no one knew about those recordings. In terms of hearing them. I mean, I talked about them a bit in blog posts or online, but no one had ever heard them, because I had the tapes. They weren't bootlegged by somebody in the record company, or even somebody who worked for the record company because they didn't have the tapes. So once conversation in the rejects came out, it was a real milestone. And obviously, it was born of a tremendous amount of emotional pain and PTSD, and just so much baggage. But that when it came out, there was a real sense of, I'm really happy this is out there for the fans. And I really tried to make it as special as I can. For the fans, it was really important to me with everything that I do is to try and make it the best it can be for the fans. And so, so far, everybody who's gotten it, his really loved it, I don't take that for granted, because you never know you might get always can get a dissenting opinion, potentially. But everybody who's gotten it so far, has really, really liked it. So that's kind of the main thing that's going on right now I'm kind of deciding, in the back of my mind, what's the next reissue going to be. And I'm not sure which one it's going to be. But there's a lot of back material like I could be doing this for years. And so I want to expedite the process as much as possible. But at the same time working on new things, as well, too. So it's, it's a lot to do, especially when you're on your own. And I don't mean that literally. But it's not like as if that I have the I guess you could say the benefit, maybe it's not a benefit of a major record company. Because a major record company would have never spent anywhere near the money it took to release conversation and the rejects correctly, they would have Xerox the old cover, made it look like crap, wouldn't have even made it look better on CD, visually as opposed to vinyl. You know how they do that. They just slap it together. So I took all of this care and doing it. And I do have a great team of really talented people. But I mean, basically, I'm in charge of this whole thing. But I'm really grateful I have smashed plastic in Chicago, they do a phenomenal job with vinyl. Just incredible. Katie Hildreth, visual artist, my wife is fantastic with with helping with things. And just there's a lot of people, you know, in that small team who bring a great deal of value to the table, and I'm really aware of, as most of us are, at a certain point that no one can do it on their own. So it's not as if that anybody could get arrogant or cocky and say, Well, I did this and make the eye sort of exaggerated. It really is a team effort. And that's not being said to sound mock humble either. It's the truth. So everybody brought a lot to the table with it. But it was hard, figuring out what's going to be the right way to release this because in one hand, you have two very different records. The rejects are among the most controversial my band ever did. That conversation was a tone down record that the record company made me do to tone it down. It was preposterous beyond belief to think that they're going to somehow make me normal. Which was that was the objective, like we're going to make you normal. And obviously, it didn't work. Because my first album sold twice as much as the first album, right? I mean, the first album sold twice as much as the second album. And the pushback on conversation when it was released in 1983. was brutal. Everybody hated it. My fans hated it. Depress hated it. Everybody said I sold out, which was really one of the hardest things for me to have to deal with. Because it wasn't true.
Brian Heater 9:18
IRS. I mean, granted a little bit for my time, but looking at the roster of Acts they had over the years. You call them trailblazing. And certainly they had some of easily some of the best artists at the time. What's your sense of what they thought they were getting with you that ultimately they didn't get? Well? I know
Jim Skafish 9:38
what happened. I know what happened. I mean, I'm real clear on what happened. Okay. According to miles Copeland. I was the first American artist and second worldwide to be signed to IRS records. In the very beginning, they were wide open. It was like, you do your record, they left me alone. I wasn't bothered at all by them. whatsoever, they didn't do anything. Okay, so the net record turned out basically the way that I wanted it to be. Okay, then what happened from there is that they went commercial and safe and corporate. So what happened between my first album recorded in 1979 And my second album turned in in November of 1982. Is they changed the record company when toned down and safe. So I have to deal with this idea that Miles Copeland used to say he's a fucking genius all around the world. Everybody had run into Oh, you're the guy says he's a fucking genius. Hahaha nuts. Oh, geez, I have to hear this all the time, right? And then go into what's this fucking shit. You're singing about freaks and Barbie dolls, Barbie dolls and freaks. I won't release it. Okay, so anybody who's heard the rechecks knows that the quality is absolutely up to standard for what I was known for doing. It wasn't as if that I had a refrigerator being recorded with cricket Senate for 30 minutes. Okay, it wasn't as if I recorded outside noise, and called it art. And I'm not even disparaging that I'm saying that it wasn't that kind of an obvious thing that a record company would have a problem with. So the second album that I turned in simply built on the first it was completely logical. In other words, take what you did with the first album and do it with the second. So Iris records changed. And they became safer, more corporate. And it's kind of this weird contradiction. Like, okay, be different, but not too much. have orange hair, but don't sing about anything too weird. And so what had happened is that I did what I would have expected to do. I took the narrative further. They hated it, because they, and it was very much proven. As it comes to what miles Copeland said to me because we were in my tiny little apartment, behind my parents house, which I was living in at the time, it was a converted garage, three itty bitty rooms, and miles Copeland came to stay with me, when we were doing the new recordings for the second album, the ones that had to be toned down. And he sits there with the whole band, we were all there in my little itty bitty little itty bitty living room. And he takes out this cassette, he brings all the way from California. And he plays New Order, Blue Monday. And Billie Jean by Michael Jackson. He goes, you need to change. This is how I want you to sound. So there was no pretense that he was trying to work with me as an artist, he was trying to change me and make me acceptable for lack of a better word. Or
Brian Heater 12:51
at least to my mind, those are two very good songs, obviously different than what you were doing what What's that process of? Well, completely different process of trying to, I guess, in a sense of meet halfway? Well,
Jim Skafish 13:03
it was hell on earth, really. But the point of it is that specifically, I did not attempt to sound like Blue Monday or Michael Jackson. I was not willing to go to that level. I just wasn't, I just couldn't even attempt to do that. But the process of it was really, really tough. Because I'm dropped this, this bomb is dropped on me, you've got to change. And also it was designed to make me feel so terrible about myself. You know, it wasn't just like, Hey, Jim, we can't work with this. It was like this whole, mean, aggressive, like What in the fuck is wrong with you? So it was really hard emotionally. And so what it is, is that Glenda Harrison and I regroup and said, Okay, this is what we have to deal with, we're going to try and write this record. I wrote some of it, and we co wrote some of it. And it was really, really tough. Because and you can look at any example of this, where a person cannot be who they are, whatever it is, say for example, if your parents are saying, You've got to be born again, Christian, or we're kicking you out of the house, okay? Or if it's an issue of sexuality, or whatever it is. So it was like you have to be somebody you're not. And the thing that was so hard about it is I thought Did he forget who he signed to he forget that this is me. In other words, that I had been bullied and attacked my entire life pretty much every day. Okay, not just by students, but by teachers choked by a teacher, locked in a broom closet, and everybody left the school by a teacher. This is what happened to me. So when I was doing the escape hatch band, I was on fire about this. It was a lot of social commentary filtered through my personal experience that proved to be quite prophetic in the sense that what I was singing about then makes more sense today. In other words, because back then people would be like, well, you're really weird this is, and some people loved it. It wasn't as if everybody hated it. But there was a lot of violence toward me, as a performer, our lives were threatened on a fairly regular basis. And so it was the idea that when you have this identity, and it was the redemption factor, this is what I believe in, this is what I do, and then it's just taken away from you. It was very, very hard. And I would say the experience was extremely tough, because then when Miles Copeland came into the studio, he was throwing the tapes against the wall, he was screaming at us, we could barely keep our composure to cut the record. Interestingly, the record turned out good. It was just not interesting from a subject matter point of view, and not as on guard. But there were hits on that record, we believe they didn't bother to push them. So it wasn't as if the music ended up being bad. It just wasn't the record that I wanted to put out. Really depth, the aftermath of it was worse than the experience. Because then the records not ever released again, on vinyl, it's not put out on CD, it's not put out digitally, it sits there for decades, then I have to go through this legal process of trying to get it back. And all those things had happened. So it was a really difficult process and then being dropped by the label. And I think I don't want to say the worst part. But one of the worst parts is that people thought I sold out. And I was furious about that. In other words, and it was way before social media, right? So I couldn't go on Instagram, or Facebook or Twitter or any platform and tell my story. And so it was kind of just sat there for all these decades. And then I was really happy. When I put up conversation in the rejects, I was able to through the liner notes, and through what I've let people know exactly what happened. So in other words, this is exactly what happened. It wasn't my decision to do it. And yet, you could use this example, it's like being in a bad marriage for the kids. Like, oh, I've got cheese, I've got to stay in this bad marriage, I'm hoping to get through it for the kids, you know that a lot of people can relate to that. Most people can't relate to being cast out by your record company, because it's kind of a unusual experience. So when I agreed to do it, I thought, well, we don't have any options, we're flat broke, we can't, I barely had money to eat on, we didn't have any other options. It was really rough. So I thought, well, I've got to try and do something, let's see if something good could come out of it. It strikes
Brian Heater 18:01
me you know, with the benefit of a being outside and be in quite a bit of hindsight that it's an example of you spending so much of your life fighting both to determine what your identity is, and to find the right people to surround yourself with to create the that art and really having, you know, several years of momentum only to be in a sense greeted with the same thing that you had been met with when you were younger.
Jim Skafish 18:30
It's a good way of putting it, Brian, I think it's very true. And the thing that was so hard about it is that you know, the press loved us or hated us, people were oftentimes time to attack us at our shows, sometimes in a way that became life threatening. I can live with all that actually, I could live with even the idea of everybody finding colorful ways to make fun of me, and talk about how freaky I am and all of that. But then, when the rug is pulled out from under you, by a person that you thought was on your side, who was pivotal to what you were doing. It was devastating. And especially when you believe in this relationship, and I think if we use it in a more personal analogy, we've all had somebody we thought was a best friend who turns out to be a fair weather friend and throws us under the bus, or somebody we're dating who we think really loves us and they're just using us and they're gonna discard us and cheat on us. It was like that and going through it. The PTSD actually became worse as the years went on, because there wasn't any resolution. So it was this whole long process. I mean, the record came out my you know, my reissue, the record came out 40 years later. So this was an even say 10 years or five years and I know For young musicians who are maybe 18 when they think of for years, it seems like a cryptic and unable to be processed right. But it was that and I felt so much baggage around the whole process that it took me getting the music together and out there and remastered by Trevor Sadler. A great remastering job. He's mastered records from Madonna Nine Inch Nails. Ramsay Lewis Steely Dan, David Byrne, I'm so fortunate to have him working for me, since 2005, by the way, he's done all of my records. And so once I heard everything, I came to realize, I really liked the music. Because I was made to feel so horrible about all of it from one end with Miles Copeland, like, who in the fuck do you think you are? What the hell's wrong with you, like as if you're, you're the person at the dinner table, who's eating with your fingers and slobbering food all over the place? It's like that kind of an example, to the other end of it with my fans who wanted that kind of a record who hated the second album, hated it. And so it was that sense that that sense of trauma was deep inside. So when I got the record out there, and I finally said, God, I really love this music. And I love the way I put it together, put both records into one, I'm not going to try and be slick and do the weird record and the normal record, just put it all together, let people decide. I was really happy with it. But still, the trauma of the experience is still a factor. How
Brian Heater 21:41
profound of an impact did the I guess in a sense of failure of that record? have on your career did it did it completely sideline you?
Jim Skafish 21:50
Well, not completely. But it really changed everything in a way that could be arguably said for the worse. I'm not trying to pronounce it in a doom and gloom way. No, I didn't get sidelined because I didn't let it happen. So what had happened is I continued doing what I've done ever since then, from then until today, it was just at a smaller level. So I wasn't able to tour internationally, like I did, under miles Copeland and IRS. So what ended up happening is that it made it so much harder. So in other words, I released a limited series cassette as my first independent release in 1988. That's going to be reissued. It's been out of print for a long time, it was a great idea because I had Aretha Franklin's backing singers on on two tracks. I had Jeff Ward drummer for ministry and lard and Nine Inch Nails. And he played for them for a while he was on drums on a couple tracks. I had a great horn section they played for Brian Wilson. But what did happen is I had to start doing everything on my own. So I was making recordings on my own, from front to back. And so when I did limited series cassette, it was a mixture of me doing everything and I had some guests, I did best kept secrets in 1992. And that was pretty much all on my own. Those were both cassette releases only. Then I did you know my holiday jazz album in 2005, we recorded it. And that was a real departure because it was unlike anything anybody would think that I would do. And strangely out of all of my independent releases, it's the most successful. And it is a traditional straight up jazz record. And because I was skilled and classical and jazz piano, I did that. Then I released What's this, which is a compilation of 1976 to 1979. Another single solo track, nothing I can do and then the reissue the first album and the second album have come out. But there's a great deal of back material, both studio and live, but it made it a lot harder. In other words, it was hard to do the bookings, it was hard to get any type of shows going it was very, very hard. You know, so it was the kind of thing that it was rough. So everything was a lot smaller. But I mean, one you do the best you can with what you have. But I mean, I was unwilling to give up. And other words, that was a real key point. I was unwilling to say, I'm out. I wasn't going to do that. I wasn't going to do that I wasn't going to and so is difficult as it was and there were other things that happened with a two. Okay. I was teaching music I also taught at a college level briefly. I was playing with my keyboardist band have your crews. If we had like kind of a new wavy dance kind of thing happening. I was playing on some other people's records doing some production not necessarily hit records. So There's a lot going on. But it definitely, I mean, the choice miles Copeland may made changed my life forever. It is no question about it, it changed everything. And I'm not saying that I have even a smidgen of resentment toward him because I don't. I love miles Copeland, a lot of the things he did for me were great blessings. But what he did with the second album, really made everything difficult for me, there is no way to pretend that it wasn't. And I'm not willing to spin it to try to make it sound like Oh, baby, it's rock and roll deal with it. It was horrible. But at the same point, I don't hold any malice toward him at all,
Brian Heater 25:39
an incredibly painful experience. It sounds like in a lot of ways he didn't handle it particularly well. But have you? Have you been in touch with him after that? Have you discussed what happened?
Jim Skafish 25:49
It's interesting question. He and I have never discussed what happened, but I had been in touch with him quite a few times for different reasons. Okay, so I haven't talked to him in a while. But over the years, I've talked to him. Like say, for example, when Ergun music war was released by Warner Brothers, okay. And they did kind of a shoddy job. They just, they didn't have the master tapes, and they took a copy and they put it out, there was some club looking kid on the cover, right. And they made it as a made order DVD. He didn't know about it. He didn't even know. So I called him and we talked about it. Around that time, I volunteered. If there was anything I can do to help get, you know, to help get Ergon music or back out there again. And that didn't go anywhere. I even suggested Well, why don't we talk to staying? Because I was always on good terms with staying. We were always real cool with each other. In fact, one of my bass players bass broke in France. He let my bass player uses bass. There was that sense of camaraderie. I mean, when I was touring with those groups, XTC to please you to UB 40 English beats squeeze all those groups. It was a great experience. Because we could have easily been treated like crap. We were the low man on the totem pole. Right? We could have easily been treated Babel retreated grade. They didn't have to treat us well. No one's gonna yell at them if they don't. So it was the kind of thing that that went nowhere. We're trying to get staying involved. They're like, No, you know, he won't want to. They didn't even really run it by him. But I volunteered that also, I was talking to miles Copeland, about other things. So yeah, I've been in touch with him. But we hadn't talked about this experience, which I'd be willing to talk about. But it just hasn't unfolded in that way, obviously, you know,
Brian Heater 27:47
very difficult to process. And, you know, there is a sense in which it was a failure. But I wonder if there's also a sense in which that experience was edifying from the standpoint, all the success that you had had up till that point was you being yourself and this first time when he tried to really, you know, fit into someone else's version of you. That's where you got knocked off track. So isn't there a sense in which that is kind of a validation of what you had been doing all along? Well,
Jim Skafish 28:11
and in a weird kind of way? Yeah. I mean, it I'm not trying to wrap it up in a pretty package, obviously, because it was it was painful. And there's no denying that. But I never wanted to be like anybody else anyway. In other words, so it wasn't like, I suddenly thought, Wow, maybe I could be like, some singer in a weird little haircut, and just bopping around the stage and singing about things that don't matter. Or don't matter to me. Okay. It was the idea that it was like trying to make yourself somebody you're not to make a relationship work and it failed. I went back and had to regroup. worked quickly into regrouping. But that process to your point was very painful. Because then there was still the idea of all of this guilt and all of this emotional trauma, that even if it wasn't mentally, say, rubber stamped. Like I'm a terrible person, and I'm worthless. I'm a terrible artist, I had nothing to offer. It was how I felt because of all of the brutality of what had happened. And it's sort of like, okay, like I said, before, all this stuff was happening. And it was really rough going through those years, on a multitude of levels. I mean, there was some good times, not many. And then you're always hoping to have that victory at the end. It's like being an athlete and you're on a team that's like, you know, less than 500. And then you're hoping that you're going to be able to get that team into a winning slot and it didn't happen, the whole thing fell apart. So the regrouping part of it was painful, but I did it and I was making recordings. A lot of them are, you know, it absolutely the same quality in terms of The aesthetic value and what it is, you know, a lot of variety, a lot of diversity, but no that is that I had to claim that back. But there was no way I was ever going to be like anybody else. And it just wasn't going to work. Right. And especially because even when we talk about, you know, people say, Well, who influenced you? And I'd say hardly anybody. I was inspired, but not influenced the distinction. Here's the distinction, inspired, feeling excitement by what somebody's doing, helping net to invigorate who you can be motivational, influenced, where you're going to try and sound like them, or, or use some of their techniques or some of their things. I never tried to be like anybody. And if there's any, anybody any kind of music that you said was influenced by, it would be classical music. That would be the one form of music that I would be influenced by. I loved Little Richard. I never wanted to sound like Little Richard. I never did anything Little Richard did. I didn't sing like him. I didn't do anything. But I loved him. loved him. I loved weather report. I loved the New York Dolls. But I wasn't trying to let what they do assimilate into my aesthetic. Do you get what I'm saying? What I
Brian Heater 31:24
would say is that especially you know, the weather report. That's a different story. But Little Richard and the doll specifically, maybe toss you know Bowie in there are two examples of, of sort of working against gender norms, which was clearly a really big part of what you were presenting.
Jim Skafish 31:42
Well, right. But that was natural to me anyway. Okay. So in other words, it wasn't like, I saw Bowie and thought I could do that, or saw the dolls. I saw them as being comrades. And I'm not saying that I was equal to them in musical stature. In my career. At that point, I was a kid, right. But what I'm saying is that that was already there for me. And with doing the gender thing, it was very different than what David did, which was glamorous, and even what the dolls did. I was doing it in an extremely ugly, deliberately ugly, unattractive, non flattering, queer way. And I was absolutely one of the first to do anything like that. For sure. Certainly the first in Chicago, maybe the first worldwide but at least one of the first one or
Brian Heater 32:27
two to do that specifically to you. Why is that an important distinction? B. It's
Jim Skafish 32:32
a huge distinction. Because it's like if you say rock music, and people could say, well, rock music could be in vain. momsteam rock music could be Johnny thunders, but there's a huge difference. If you're trying to look in any kind of a surgical way, there's a huge difference between me presenting myself. I'm ugly, I don't know, if I'm a boy or a girl, you're gonna really freak out at me. There's no glamour here. And I'm throwing it in your face. It's hugely different than what David with the dolls did.
Brian Heater 33:05
Clearly, there's a sense in which is kind of came with the territory and came naturally. But were you. And I'm thinking a lot about this now famous story of you opening for a shot and, and there being some a lot of backlash in person. But what we
Jim Skafish 33:19
almost died, was there
Brian Heater 33:20
a sense in which you were deliberately trying to provoke?
Jim Skafish 33:25
Well, I wouldn't say that I was deliberately trying to have somebody pulled a gun on me, which is what happened at the shot on our show. But it was this sort of, in your face, full out. Not considering, like, I want you to like me, say, for example, a lot of entertainers are very based in approval. And I'm not criticizing that. Like they want the audience to like them, they want to be approved of, et cetera. This was more, you could say it was a combination of primal therapy, life or death, survival, throwing it out there with maximum intensity. So it wasn't like hahaha, I'm going to provoke you in a kind of a snarky way. But it was non compromising. And then certain people loved it. Certain people hated it. And there was a great deal of violence directed toward us through the career, it wasn't just, you know, a few instance here and there. Is
Brian Heater 34:29
there a sense in which you, obviously not in the case of somebody pulling a gun on you, but is there a sense in which you almost fed or thrived on some of that pushback?
Jim Skafish 34:42
In the moments on stage, yeah, it's kind of like survival. It's like if somebody attacks you, you know, you're in survival mode, right? Like say if you're, if a bunch of people are bugging you or something. I'd work with it. Some I was definitely not wanting to get off stage. So it was the idea of certainly not backing down, not backing down. Certainly that energy could keep our adrenaline going. But it was hard because there was times where there was so much violence, in particular shows that we couldn't keep the show going. I mean, like, sometimes the shows were stopped, the Chicago Police stopped the shot in our show. Because 6000 people were writing and getting ready to get on stage to kill us. And the person with the gun was in the audience, a friend of mine who was filming the set, saw him he was standing right behind him, he had the gun pointing right at me when the police stopped the show,
Brian Heater 35:42
in a case like that, when you are in very real danger, you know, obviously thriving on the adrenaline at the moment. But looking back on it, does that give you pause? Does that make you want to maybe tone it down or pull it back a little bit? So you're not put in that situation? No.
Jim Skafish 36:00
I couldn't. At that point, to say, I felt that it was all that I had. And all that I was, I realized, as the years have gone on, I've evolved into a much more multi dimensional person, hopefully. But back then, it was the only thing. It's just as important to me now. But there's other things as well, if that makes sense does. And so but you know, when you think fight or flight, okay, we were always in fight. So it's that simple. In other words, we didn't sit there and run off the stage. I mean, we we did the first Milton Keynes show in London, in 1980, in front of 45,000 people. And they were throwing full beer cans at us on stage, to a point where the headstock off, the guitar got knocked off. There was so much beer splattering, we were falling on stage. And then I got hit in the head with a beer can and was bleeding. And that's what stopped the show. That was one that stopped the show. Okay, so with that particular show, and a shot on our show, it couldn't continue. And other ones did continue for various reasons, but knows that it was a fight or flight. I never thought for a minute like I should tone it down. I never did. And I never felt that I should try to like suck up. Like, hey, I'm just weird, but I'm okay, you know, any of that kind of stuff. I never felt that. And so when that whole cycle kind of ended, is again when Iris records threw us under the bus. Because then that way, the options I had were more limited, although I kept doing things
Brian Heater 37:54
going from, you know, all those years of a incredibly impressive, oppressive environment in Catholic school. When did the cycle when did the positive cycle begin? When was it clear that there was this avenue or this venue where you could really fully be yourself? Well,
Jim Skafish 38:15
I'm not sure that dip it came. Really. In other words, I was going to be myself regardless, it depends on what you gauge it is. I mean, obviously, I have, you know, a wife, who I can be myself with. I have a son who I could be myself with. But it's not a sift that there was kind of a, a light bulb moment, because even the abuse and the bullying continued way past. So it wasn't like as if all of a sudden, I'm not on a big stage and rock and roll, and all the abuse stop. It continued in my life for decades. So in other words, that has been there's no aha moment with that to say, oh, Aha, here it stops. Like as if you're going to put the end of the story like and then he rode off into the sunset, in the suburbs. I mean, that story is not my story.
Brian Heater 39:12
Let's surely at some point, it was clear that, that it was working, though, that you were on to something.
Jim Skafish 39:19
Well, I always I always knew that I was onto something as an artist, not so much from an arrogant point of view, but from a Passion Driven point of view. So say, for example, the passion was in was consuming, I had to do this. And so I always was tied into that. But I wasn't sitting back with the metaphorical cigar and saying, oh my god, I'm onto something. There was too much pain, too much frustration, too much difficulty and it wasn't as if there was ever smooth sailing. So let's say if there was smooth sailing and your platinum records and you could sit there and pat yourself on the back and you know all that eagle rubbish happened right that never worked. happened because I was never in that position. But I always believed in what I was doing, from an extremely obsessive point of view, but it was more of I had to do it versus I chose to this is,
Brian Heater 40:11
you know, not a great game to play all the time. But But I get the sense that even if those things had come to you that you wouldn't, that you wouldn't have been happier, you wouldn't have been satisfied with them?
Jim Skafish 40:23
That's right. I think it would have, I would have still continued with the mission. Like, in other words, it wouldn't be like, Oh, you're in the club now. And you could just be like everyone else, you know, for that sort of tribal acceptance thing that human beings like, like, Oh, we're all this way, or we're all that way. I don't think it would have made me soften. But it didn't happen. So it's hard to speculate. But my identity has always been too strongly formed. So in other words, it wasn't like, I'd look at an artist and say, I'm going to be like them. I never had that. I never said I will be like, whoever, Chuck Berry Elvis Presley, The Beatles, I never did that. But I was I loved so much so much art, that it inspired me and made me feel like well, I can, I can feel this, I can do it, I can find what's within me. And that that was important. But the fact of how different the project was, made it really hard commercially, always made it hard commercially. And that was really difficult. But I was unwilling to try to play it like a marketing person. I just wasn't, I just wasn't willing to do it. I didn't want to have to live with that. And it may sound full, noble and it's not meant to. It's the idea that I was not willing to compromise my integrity for anybody or anything. I just wasn't
Brian Heater 41:57
obviously I don't think most of us really know what it means to be our true selves when we're if we're in our 20s. Regardless, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of talk that that has to happen. But with a lot of these artists, as we're talking specifically about the ones who are breaking gender norms, there's a sense in which for a lot of them, it is very, very theatrical, was there. Was it purely theatrical? Or was there really a deep seated sense of, of yourself in that?
Jim Skafish 42:29
I would say it was totally myself. It wasn't theatrical. Because if I was going to do it theatrically, I'd present it more glamorously or present it more in a non street way. It was not glamorous at all. In fact, it was the antithesis of glamorous. So if I'm wearing an old lady's old fashioned one piece bathing suit, with a matching babushka onstage, it's not glamorous, it's ugly. If I'm wearing ugly piece stained underwear or diapers or two tops, it's not beautiful. Do you get what I'm saying? So no, it wasn't about this kind of like, welcome to your weird fantasy and enjoy it for the moment before you go back to your normal life. For the audience. It wasn't like that,
Brian Heater 43:13
to a certain extent, I think we have, obviously, there's a lot of pushback, but as a society may be a better understanding, or at least more vocabulary to describe, you know, non non binary or gender as a spectrum. With that, in hindsight, do you feel that now in your life that you have a better idea of where you sit in that?
Jim Skafish 43:40
Well, within myself, yeah. I mean, that is fine. What I'm saying is that I think it's a much more not convoluted, but contradictory thing. I would allege that the abuse of gay transgender non binary people is worse today. Every time I see I can barely sick Can you suck
Brian Heater 44:19
this has been the case forever with as as people get more freedom, the pushback intensifies. And we're seeing that in a very real way right now.
Jim Skafish 44:31
Well, whenever I see kids who get murdered that's the course.
So I would argue that in one way, it's better in one way it's not. But I mean, when kids go to school and get murdered for being you know who they Are, it's really hard for me
Brian Heater 45:09
there's a very real way in which being that person on stages is empowering. Just, you know, I'm sure that if you had had something like that, and maybe did to extent, you know, maybe he did and in Little Richard or Bowie or the dolls, but just being an example of that in the world is empowering for people who are trying to figure out who they are.
Jim Skafish 45:33
Sure, sure. Well, and, you know, the fan base that I have, a lot of them have been with me from the beginning. And there has been new fans who have come to, but I get a lot of that feedback. And it's very, very, what would be the right word. I hate to say gratifying, because I'm not trying to be uppity about it, or anything like that. But, sure, and let me say this, I mean, when, when your identity is so formulated at such a young age, and your extremes are so experienced, that your experiences are so extreme, and there's all these things that converged. I was heavily trained classically. So what separated me right there is that I could have easily became a classical pianist, or a jazz pianist. And I was even gonna get a music degree. But I, but I couldn't. Because I had to, for my band, I was too obsessed with it, right. It's the idea that they have all these convergences. And even if I did this right now, it would still be challenging for people. And if you're looking over 40 years ago, it was really hard for people. But it did have an audience, and it did have an impact. And, you know, it's, it's great when those things happen. But when I see the pain of people still getting murdered, it's really tough. I mean, I'm more, you know, more composed. But there was a recent person who got beat to death in school in Oklahoma. And they died the next day, and I couldn't deal with it. But yeah,
Brian Heater 47:15
I mean, that's a case of, you know, you can
Jim Skafish 47:19
trace, Oh, I see myself in it. Of course, I do.
Brian Heater 47:22
You can trace that to some very systemic things and legislation, and then, you know, things that are happening on the state level in that case,
Jim Skafish 47:30
well, it gets to a point where, you know, obviously, the way the world is right now, it's sort of like pop culture, like, okay, a lot of entertainers, they could be this or that, or they could look a certain way. And maybe they could, quote unquote, get away with it. Are they really going to rest Lady Gaga at a show? Or even somebody more avant garde, right? Probably not. But it's the idea that that's sort of the illusory way it's presented in entertainment, when laws are there, where kids can be murdered, you know, and where they could be denied health care. And it's, it's ghastly. So in other words, this dichotomy between the sort of free society and people being waged war against, and and I think it's a terrible thing. And it's not even like, decide which side of the spectrum you're on politically, I'm not even speaking of it in that way. I'm saying that there should never be a point in this country where people are killed because of the way they look, or because of their sexuality, or because of their race, or because they're fat, or because they're a woman or because they're too tall, or because they look weird, or because they're on the spectrum. It just shouldn't happen. It's
Brian Heater 48:48
one of those things that you say, and it seems very obvious, and yet, and yet, here we are, after all these years, you know, it seems it seems like common sense. But
Jim Skafish 48:57
when those are the things that I was talking about 40 to 50 years ago, and I'm saying they're more relevant today. And that's one of the things I'm excited about what the rejects like those topics, and those songs are relevant today. Not just when they were written years ago, in fact, they're more relevant. Let's play doctor was more relevant today, in terms of gender confusion, and gender mis identification more relevant today than it was when I wrote it in the 70s. You know, so it's, it's, I'm really glad about that. But certainly, that sense of being ahead of the curve is not a glamorous place to be. So people said, oh, wouldn't it be great if you were ahead of your time? And I'd say no, it's not great. You know, I mean, what's great about it, in other words, because that's where there's this sort of glamorization of being out there like as if you're in your own wonderful little world, but it's hard because people are neural It's very lonely, but it's also brutal. People are phenomenally narrow minded. And it depends on what way but overall. So if you get people who are open minded, that's a really valuable thing. But people who are open minded are oftentimes not people in power.
Brian Heater 50:26
As we all know, you feel at this point in your life that you have a better understanding of of who you are as a person.
Jim Skafish 50:35
Oh, totally. Yeah, completely. Let me say this, I, in a human form, we're not going to be perfect. It's not possible in a human form. from a spiritual perspective. If you're saying, Do I have a good understanding of myself? And how I work? Yeah, much better, so much better. So, um, and, but I don't strive for perfection. And I think when people do it's a very slippery slope, because we won't be perfect in a physical body.
Brian Heater 51:07
And it's a bit of a hacky question, but I think it's an important one. Sure, decades of knowledge and experience. If you were able to talk to yourself in those early days, when life was at its hardest, what? What advice would you impart on yourself?
Jim Skafish 51:31
Well, I'm happy to answer the question. But spiritually speaking, I try to never indulge the future or the past. I'm not I haven't achieved this. Yes, it's
Brian Heater 51:42
more of a it's more of an abstract question.
Jim Skafish 51:45
Hyper. Yeah, here's what I would do. What I would try to reinforce to myself, is that no matter what, keep it going, no matter what, do it, don't let yourself get so you know, on the edge, or just shoveled or upset because of other people, no matter who it is, whether it's miles Copeland, whether it's bad reviews, whether it's an audience trying to kill you, whatever it is, that sense of staying with it. Now, obviously, I stayed with it. But if I would have known the idea of just stay with it, it's what you should do, it's who you are. And that the value is in the process, not in the reward, the value was in the process of doing something not in discernible, say earthly your worldly kind of rewards, that at that point, I would have said that to myself, but but still, nonetheless, I did see it through and went through it, it might have been a little bit emotionally easier, possibly
Brian Heater 52:44
easier. If you know that things are gonna work out pretty well, in the end, or relatively well, well, one
Jim Skafish 52:50
of the things about it is that there's certain aspects of, if we know, certain aspects of the future, we would not be able to live out what we're here to live out, from a spiritual perspective, certain things. So say, if I would have known back then when I wouldn't, I formed my first incarnation of my band at 19. My bass player was 16. Okay, if if I would have known then I could have never gone through this. I could have never did it, I would have not been able to go through this. If I would have seen clearly, this is what you're gonna go through. I couldn't have done it. So at that point, I didn't know what the consequences were going to be. And I was, I don't want to use the word naive. It's a little too disparaging. I was certainly unaware of how much pushback I was going to get. I was unaware of how much people would try to hurt me physically, and unaware of how much I would be disparaged, like perfect example of this. Okay. So many of my band members were classically trained, right. Okay. bass player, original bass player, master's degree from Juilliard now has played with Tony Bennett, played bass for the Lyric Opera drummer, Larry, my Slavic music degree from DePaul, went on to play for Iggy Pop, have your cruise music degree from Chicago State. This one journalist named David woods in 1978, in the Chicago Reader said, Oh, the band can only play one chord together. Now, what's ludicrous about that is he was homophobic and transphobic. And he hated me. And he was open about that. But then to take the attack to the musicianship. That's the part that was so preposterous, because anybody who's ever seen my band plays, know that the band is highly highly proficient musically. No one in the right mind is going to debate that they can hate what I do, but the caliber of musicians I had, were at the top level worldwide. Okay. But in other words, that's the kind of thing you get with that kind of pushback with the pushback was so not grounded, like you could say, but so you can't just say, I don't like you, I think you're weird and ugly, and I don't like you and leave it at that. You have to make the person wrong. So like when you attack somebody, you have to make them wrong. So then you're justified in what you're doing to them. It's not just like one, I'm biased, and I'm prejudiced. And I hate you, you know. So in other words, that's what he did. But then he went too far. And he looks ludicrous now in retrospect, because that he's talking about a bass player who plays for the Lyric Opera. The that's the level, he's, he's saying, Now, if we were drunk, which we never were on stage high, which we never were not rehearsed, which we never were. But that's the example of those kinds of attacks that were always waged at me. And because they were so intense part of me just believed that they were true. I'm not saying all of me, but part of me just felt, you know, so horrible. And so, what fueled me was the obsessive desire and the unwillingness to give up. It wasn't like, it was happy to hear what I'm saying. And it wasn't even like, fun. You know, when people talk about like, fun? Well, a little bit of fun, not much. Not much. And so, and especially because we had such high standards, that it wasn't like, we'd sit there and you know, have cigars after the show and talk about how great we were was always it wasn't good enough? Or what should we do better. And yet, we were performing at this level, that is very seldom seen. I've never met a drummer ever, who could play sign of the cross from urban music, or like, Larry, my Slavic. I've never met a drummer yet, who can do that part. It's one of the most complicated drum performances ever. I'm saying that's the level it was. And yet, we always felt like it had to be better. And that's, it's torturous to get what I'm saying. Because it, it has to be better, it has to be better. And looking back on it, you know, hindsight has the 2020 thing you could say. But you know, obviously, we love the music, the band was elated when they got the conversation, and a reach Accel my sent it to him and, you know, gave it to them and all that. They were elated. Because when you hear it, where it's no longer the debris of being screamed at and yelled at and everybody hating it, then you could enjoy it for what it was. And for the music that it was. And like I said, I champion all musicians, I hope that everybody achieves their dreams, everybody. In other words, it's a really rough gig. So I'd be the last person to disparage anybody, and especially with how much of it has been directed at me and all of us. But it's the idea that with that people will always have to make you wrong to attack you. Because then that makes them right. It
Brian Heater 57:56
strikes me that having such a I guess a pragmatic perspective of that time means that you don't you never really get caught up in a trap of being overly nostalgic and overly romanticizing those struggles.
Jim Skafish 58:11
Oh, God, no, no, I'm just like, like, I'm grateful I got through it. Hey, I got through, like I'm alive. You know? No. In fact, you know, when my son was little, and he was growing up. I was never like telling them more stories, like, sit down with your old man. Listen, I never did that. And then eventually, he's a musician, you know, and that's what he did. But when he became interested, like, Oh, what happened with Joey Ramone, or Sid Vicious? And then I tell him, you know, it's like, yeah, I can talk to you. But I didn't want it to be like there was these war stories. Because, you know, it's, it's a violation of spiritual law to live in the past or the future. And I know, we all do it. But it's, it's not good. And so what I'm saying is that, since there's still so much emotional pain, that I have to stay grounded in the present tense. So no, I'm not nostalgic about it at all, or romanticizing it, but I'm saying is that the idea that trying to navigate the emotions is, you know, you have to stay in the present tense. It's this great concept of like, you know, classical music, right. You talked about classical. You practice every day, one of my great classical piano teachers said to me, and it really hit me. You miss practicing one day, you notice that you miss two days, your teacher notices that you miss three days everybody notices it. So that discipline in that focus is very, very useful for me. And also the passion to create and to go where I sound like Star Trek, I don't mean to grow when no one else has gone. I'm not trying to be silly, but I mean, it's yeah, it's To Boldly I forget, I forgot that word. But whenever I thought of this has always been to go where no one else would go. That's always been a huge, huge part of the sky fish band. In other words, we never wanted to be in a wave, we created the wave to get him saying, we created the wave. When you create the wave, at least in the timeframe, you don't get credit for it. And others when you pioneer something, you don't get credit for it. It's usually the people who come after and water it down and hijack at that the gift credit. That's usually what happens. Maybe in the long run, you might get credit for it. But I mean, how long did it take for a Little Richard to get any credit? What an amazing talent. And I say that with like, great reverence for him with no desire to be like him at all, you know, in other words, I can separate that between, oh, God, I really love him. And, you know, so much like Muddy Waters and Willie Dixon. I love them. They were huge supporters of mine. And I never tried to be like them. But I mean, they were so supportive of me, it was unbelievable. And you figure well, how does that work? The socioeconomic doesn't match, right? They took me in, were managed by the same person. They welcomed me, took me in Muddy Waters compared me to Mick Jagger in print. Willie Dixon referred to me as the best musician he knew. I thought they were gonna have a real problem with the way that I looked. I really did. I thought, Oh, God, they're gonna hate me. And what am I going to do say, Don't hate me, I love you. And they just like were so welcoming. And it goes to show that their pain and mine is not completely different. I mean, it's racially different. Sure. But it's it, they got it. And so I'm saying is that no, you know, it's okay, what happened before? I mean, we're talking about these things. It's intense, because there's so much that we're reliving and all that, but No, I'm okay with it. You know, it's not like, I'm clinically depressed or anything, thank God, you know, and it's the idea to that I, when you function, you know, when you if you're famous at a young age, and you could become a prima donna. Not good. Not good. Not good. So, in other words, yeah, I take the dog out, you know, with my wife, you know, cook, or whatever, you know, in other words, that sense of just being a person and just doing what you have to do is you're useful. And like I said, after everything I've been through, I don't believe I'd ever be able to be that person who's like in the ivory tower and speaking with the fake Oxon and all that shit, right? I don't think I could ever be that. I'm Hope I'm not giving myself too much credit. But I don't think I could, because of what I've been through. You know, and I would always be well for making the record as a good record. If it's not good, fix it. If it's great, fantastic. If it's not right, you know, in other words, you look at it pragmatically, as opposed to with all of this. All of this trappings, you know, when certain people leave, they walk into the room with their ego and it's this huge armor and it's just so off putting, right No, I don't want anything to do with it.