Like many of us, Tracy Bonham's been through it over the last couple of years. Her latest single, “Damn The Sky (For Being Too Wide)," processes some of those feelings of isolation and disconnect. It's also her first studio release since 2017's Modern Burdens, which found the musician reconnecting with the debut album that put her on the map back in the mid-90s. Throughout it all, she's managed to reconnect with the people and things that matter most.
Tracy Bonham 0:12
It just depends. I tried and it does seem cool. It's very cool. When you're there working. It's awesome. You got stuff to do. And you're working and and there's so many amazing places and restaurants and now like the artist, you know, community, and it's awesome. I love the weather. But when you're actually faced living there every day, for me, it was just the loneliest place in the world.
Brian Heater 0:34
What do you attribute that to?
Tracy Bonham 0:36
Well, I think it's true. Everyone says it's a car culture, I think it's true, everyone is in their car, and then they go home. And so far, it's sprawling, sprawling, so you can't just bump into somebody, I think the thing I missed the most, after having lived in New York for quite a while, was just striking up a conversation that the deli or you know, maybe on the subway, you don't, you know, there's none of that happening. So you don't really get to even feel the flavor of the people in the cultures. Everyone just kind of stays away from each other. And then everything has to be planned. There's no spontaneity. That's what I missed, you know, you can walk down, you know, anywhere here and stop in a cafe or get your nails done, whatever it is, and you're going to like, talk to people.
Brian Heater 1:25
There's something that you know, people from outside New York outside the city don't understand of like, how difficult it is asking somebody to come to your borough from a different borough. But but that is nothing compared to when I'm in Los Angeles, and I'm trying to meet friends and I had to choose between my Eastside friends and my Westside friends.
Tracy Bonham 1:48
I bet and that's a big deal. And then you have to like deal with like, where are we going to park? And then where are we going to meet? And yeah, it's it's a lot. But there's a lot of trade offs to I do I love the beach so much. And I really do love the weather to your
Brian Heater 2:02
West coaster. I birth as well. Yeah, yeah. And
Tracy Bonham 2:06
I'm lucky that I still get to go back. My parents were there and my brothers are there. I also have family brothers and a sister in Southern California. So I'm pretty lucky.
Brian Heater 2:16
Have you considered the Pacific Northwest? Oh,
Tracy Bonham 2:20
I did briefly. But now, you know, I have a 13 year old son, and he was young when I was considering it. And or we were considering it. But you know, our son's from Ethiopia. And so there's not a lot of diversity, at least, I was considering Eugene, which is my hometown. I just I think I want a little bit more culture. I want him to be around like, you know, all sorts of culture and the best melting pot is here in Brooklyn.
Brian Heater 2:50
Well, I would argue the best melting pot is here at Queens. Got it? Okay. We are the most ethnically in the United States. I just, you know, I have I have the data to prove it.
Tracy Bonham 3:04
I believe you. I believe you. You're right. I was
Brian Heater 3:07
having this exact conversation with my therapist today when I was talking about moving and it was sort of a, it was an afterthought, because I'm looking at Beacon and New Paltz, which I like quite a lot. It's called town, you know, and then I do the thing where I go to Wikipedia, and then look at the demographics. And it's like, you know, 95 96%
Tracy Bonham 3:31
Yeah. And most people are from the city too. That's the thing. I wrote it. I wrote a song called we moved our city to the country, because it's when I first moved up to Woodstock and bought a place up there, as everyone you bump into is like coming up from the city and then going out for sushi. And, you know, it's like, you gotta gotta mix it in with, like, the real local scene to really know what it feels like to, you know, to really be from there. I'd like that better than being a tourist.
Brian Heater 4:00
What's funny is like, that was her, her counterpoint. She was like, Don't worry, a lot of people are moving there from the city. Right? Which is to say, you know, it's not gonna be as white.
Tracy Bonham 4:11
Okay, well, theoretically, I guess you're right. That's true. You know, I mean, there's other places up there too, though. There's Newberg. There's, you know, places that are.
Brian Heater 4:25
I'm a Californian who has spent my entire time out here living in the city so like once you get to Westchester, I just lose all track of where anything is. I don't know the delineations between I just happened to have gone up to New Paltz, you know, during the pandemic and really liked the nature and everything.
Tracy Bonham 4:44
Yeah, it's beautiful, right? It's It's really beautiful. And it's, for me Woodstock was a little too far away for commute and I tried it a lot. It's like, for Brooklyn, door to door sometimes three hours, sometimes five, but um, that's a little much for a commute, I'd say beacons, and it's on the train line too. So places like that would be great. Now,
Brian Heater 5:07
when you say commute, what do you mean by that? Right? Well, I,
Tracy Bonham 5:12
I mean, I started teaching and during COVID, when we were quarantine up there. I would drive I also have my relationship here in Brooklyn now. And I would drive down like sometimes two, three times a week. That's a lot. It's it's a lot of driving and and that kind of time. You know, there's just a lot of time in the car. I'm
Brian Heater 5:36
trying to get the timeline here. We were in Los Angeles was like around the time of your second record, is that right?
Tracy Bonham 5:42
Let's see. No, it was more like my third. Which, what was it? 2000? I was there from 2002 to 2005. It was very brief.
Brian Heater 5:56
Three years is not an insignificant amount of time. I made a shot. Yeah, yeah. Was it? Was it the music business that brought you out there?
Tracy Bonham 6:04
No, it was actually post 911. I just, I was living in Brooklyn Heights right across from the towers. And I just had, I kind of wanted to move west anyway. And things had changed for me. And living in the city was really tough. Right. And I had CNN on all the time, which was probably really unhealthy.
Brian Heater 6:28
So I didn't want to leave a probably apartment,
Tracy Bonham 6:30
right? It was not the kind of life I wanted to live. So I had some friends in Los Angeles. And yeah, the music business is there. A part of its there. So that was compelling. We're probably up to Woodstock. I'm wanting nature. When I moved back from Los Angeles, this is when I got together with my, my ex. And I kind of made a deal. I was like, if I'm moving back to the city, I need a respite. I need to have a little escape plan. So just much like you when you're talking about wanting some more space and wanting to have trees and, you know, nature around you. I was able to find a place in Woodstock to so that we could have like both, we had the best of both scenarios. That's the ideal. Yeah. However, it is one of those like velvet handcuff situations, you know, be careful what you wish for a monkey is that it a monkey's paw. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining about Wow, poor me, I had two homes, it was hard. But you know, it's just as expensive as all hell like that. That was really the thing that got me near the end, it was just too expensive. And then you're just spending a lot of time on the road. And I kind of I've moved around so many times in my life and also being on tour. I really am just longing to just be in one place and have one one roof and a one septic tank. One. You know, one, you know, I still love to travel. But I really want home base to be like one place.
Brian Heater 8:11
I've got a lot of friends. You know my age who are starting to have kids now. And this is the constant back and forth is, you know, how feasible it is and how much you actually want to raise a kid in the city.
Tracy Bonham 8:28
Yeah, I mean, that's a really big factor to put in and schools like we're going through nightmares, just trying to find the right school and the lottery for the public school is really hard. So you know, now that I mean, my son's doing well, and he's, we've placed him in high school and, and all of that, hopefully knock on wood is done. Hopefully it will stay in one place. But it's really not easy. It's not easy to raise a kid
Brian Heater 8:56
in the city. It's true. Does he have musical ambitions?
Tracy Bonham 8:59
No, he does not, unfortunately.
Brian Heater 9:02
Have you tried? Have you kind of like, nudged him? Yes, I
Tracy Bonham 9:06
had him in piano lessons. And he's naturally talented. And he's really good. He's a little bit of a show off does not want to slow down at all. But you know, if he would have like, locked it in and really committed, he'd be great. But his interests changed. He got a little older the pandemic hit and that made having lessons on Zoom kind of difficult. But he pushed through for a while there and then I think the screens and the video games especially during COVID It was it just was really hard to manage and I think it changed the trajectory for a lot of families and it's just hard for me to get him back on the on the piano.
Brian Heater 9:54
He's 13 You know, and he's got that foundation now. So hill you can always go back for show Connect. with it at some point, so, you know, like, and I'm not suggesting he is at all but like, I was a real asshole when I was 13. It was. It's not it's not an easy time.
Tracy Bonham 10:10
Right? Exactly. You came around. Your mom
Brian Heater 10:14
was a music teacher. Correct. So was she, how much did she kind of nudge you in that direction? Well, it was just
Tracy Bonham 10:23
a given. It was like, it was there for me. And, and I just, you know, she and I have a kind of an intense relationship at the beginning because my father died before I was even two. So she, I believe she kind of more than her other kids, I hate to say it, and my other siblings are much older and from a different father. She just kind of took me and we really connected over music especially. And, I mean, I have wonderful memories of us both watching Sesame Street, and electric company and all of the shows that I loved growing up that were all about music, or at least I really, you know, dug the music side of things. And so did she. And then I'd go and help her teach or I'd be her little helper and it I saw her on stage a lot too, because she was in the local productions of like, on a clear day you can see forever and you know, all of these musical theater productions so I was I was already hooked. Didn't have to she did not have to force me to do anything.
Brian Heater 11:24
Are you a Yo Gabba? Gabba family? Did you Oh,
Tracy Bonham 11:27
I love you but GABA GABA. So I would say at one point yes. I
Brian Heater 11:31
really love Mr. T. Now, to be fair, exactly. He's
Tracy Bonham 11:35
a little old, but I think he'd have fond memories of he and I are watching Yo Gabba Gabba. I loved it. It was such a cute, really clever show. I actually they invited me to be a guest on one of their live shows when they were touring amphitheaters. And so I was a guest doing the peanut butter stomp or something. And Bismarck. He was there. I remember we hung out a little bit. I know. I was he was he is great as he was really charming and awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. You.
Brian Heater 12:07
You did a I don't know. What do you say? It's a kids music project? Correct?
Tracy Bonham 12:12
Yes. Okay. Yeah, kids music project for lack of a better term. At the moment.
Brian Heater 12:16
I'm looking at your I read the your bio, which you definitely didn't write on your website, and it says it's for, quote, young music enthusiasts.
Tracy Bonham 12:26
Yes. Yes, yes. of all ages. I think even after that, because it's really the whole point of melodeon, is to spark the inspiration in children. But also grownups, I can't tell you how many times I've played shows as Tracy Barnum, and people come up to me knowing my black background, as you know, classically trained or even beginning to be an educator, and they'd say, I wish I had a teacher that would wasn't boring or mean or discouraging. And I wish I had someone to inspire me and I wished the material back then was, was inspiring. And that's the whole point of mooting is to create material that's not just by rote, it's like it's going to stir something in a child or an adult to want to practice that was always something that I really look back at my teachers from junior high in high school and they instilled the, the joy of practice in me. And for any, you know, discipline, it's wonderful, you know, the, the joy of learning and the wanting to get better and practice and just taking things in under a microscope and slowing things down. It's so much fun, but you have to have the right teacher because if you heard that on, if you read that on paper, you'd be like, barring, but it's you've got to have the right kind of teacher that instills this this passion. And that's what we're hoping to do with melodeon.
Brian Heater 13:58
What is it about those those lessons? You know, I guess Yeah, you're right, it music especially when it's forced on a child can be incredibly arduous and boring. And that's probably a huge you know, I like when I when I think about becoming a writer, a big part of the reason why I became writers because I had some good English teachers. And that's probably a lot of people's stories,
Tracy Bonham 14:18
I think so I think it really just depends on how it's delivered to the child. And if someone is like, in, like, if you're intuitive as an educator, and you can maybe be on their level, but not so don't be pedantic about things, you know, but teach from a place of knowing where they're at, and then finding their strengths and then like helping them from there, not just like, This is how much I know and I'm gonna give it to you and you must take it. I don't find teaching like that. Very helpful.
Brian Heater 14:50
You anticipated going down a more classical route with your career,
Tracy Bonham 14:55
correct? Yeah. Yeah, really.
Brian Heater 14:58
Did you study you You did you did the whole thing. Yeah,
Tracy Bonham 15:02
I thought I was gonna be in a symphony orchestra. I knew I wasn't good enough to be a soloist. And I went to school with those kinds of students. And I was like, okay, that's not me. And I was practicing a lot like six hours a day, I'd wake up early. I put on my big heavy practice mute, so I wouldn't bother my neighbors or my roommates or whatever. And I was really diligent, I
Brian Heater 15:25
should say, it's the violin, which is an awful thing to hear people practice.
Tracy Bonham 15:30
It can be especially if you're not that good. Oh, my God, I you know, I pay kudos to my mom when I was first starting out, you know, because it must have been a couple of years of just anguish for her ears. Listen,
Brian Heater 15:42
my sister, and I think she's gonna be excited that I brought her up on this episode with you is not in a great way of just she just never, she never quite made it to that level. And it was just the the agony. Yeah,
Tracy Bonham 15:56
it's hard. It's a really hard instrument to learn. And you have to have so much perseverance. I was always so jealous of those Suzuki kids that started at age three. But again, I have some real misgivings about Suzuki. Anyway, that method, but you know, the ones that really were like, starting really young, they had such an advantage, you know,
Brian Heater 16:16
but you gotta have a childhood. Yes, that's
Tracy Bonham 16:19
true. Exactly. I agree there. And I'm lucky that I did have a childhood. So I knew in the back of my mind, it wasn't I, I don't think I really thought I was going to be classical player. I knew it was going to be in my life always. And I, you know, the reason why I went to, I went to conservatory I went to the University of Southern California Music School. I, that's all I could do. I my SATs scores were terrible. I, you know, practice really hard on the violin, I got a full scholarship and my teacher was like, good thing. You play the violin so well, because you know, what else you'd be doing in your life. So I just I followed that. So real
Brian Heater 16:58
backhanded compliment.
Tracy Bonham 17:02
I knew what she was getting at. She was really old. She was really German. And I was like, Okay, get it. Alice Sternfeld. You're right. But um, but I also had singing. And I also had, I had a childhood, like, you know, where I was involved in musical theater. And, you know, I play the piano. I know, it's all music and drama and stuff. But I felt like that was a well rounded exposure to the things that I liked. And so then I decided I wanted to sing just because it was easier. But also, it was a better way for me to communicate, and express myself, you
Brian Heater 17:37
were always able to just stand up in front of people and sing. Yeah.
Tracy Bonham 17:43
Yeah, from a very early age. Yeah. It's
Brian Heater 17:45
such an intimate thing to do. It
Tracy Bonham 17:48
can be Yeah, you're right.
Brian Heater 17:49
But it comes naturally to you. Well,
Tracy Bonham 17:53
you know, if you're a PAM like I am, and was it, I wouldn't say it's so intimate. It's kind of like I'm just showing off totally, like, wanted to be the center of the stage make people laugh, I was my mom called me her little clown. So it's kind of true. So I wouldn't say it was intimate. But now as I'm older, I think it's very intimate. And I'm really starting to even I'm, you know, I'm so much older. But I'm, I'm developing this relationship that I have with my singing with my voice that I never had before, even. Because I'm, I think as you get to middle age, you start to go inward more, and you don't focus on what other people think of you so much, which is such a blessing. So I'm all about middle age. I'm so fortunate to be here. But the intimacy now is with myself, and really trying to be more authentic when I sing. Rather than constantly. Like I used to kind of make myself miserable. There was a while there, I was like, Am I really enjoying being onstage? Because I am constantly critiquing what just happened? Like, oh, that notes out of tune, what if this note is going to be added to and you know, the gears are turning, and you're not even in the present moment?
Brian Heater 19:05
Yeah, I this was actually something I really wanted to talk about. And this is getting back again to, I think, to the buyer you have on your site, but there were two things that really jumped out at me and they're directly connected. One of them I actually, I think one of them actually comes from a post you did about some of the health issues that you've had lately. And in that you said, I've been having a lot of defining moments lately. And then, from the bio, it's over the past several years, I did a ton of work on myself. Those are obviously very closely connected. And it sounds like a big part of why perhaps why singing is become much more personal for you.
Tracy Bonham 19:45
That's a nice, nice perspective there. Yeah, you know, I feel so blessed to have music and to be able to sing but you know, when I wrote the part on my bike because I did write, so
Brian Heater 20:02
I know this. You're
Tracy Bonham 20:05
being sarcastic. Yeah, nobody. Everybody writes her in BIOS. Now whenever I read a bio like, totally, well,
Brian Heater 20:10
listen, listen, I and the reason why it's clear that you wrote this bio, and this is why I'm keep joking about it is because it's it's personal in a way that somebody else wouldn't dare, I think, right. That's right.
Tracy Bonham 20:26
I get you. Yeah. And I, you know, I'd love some advice on that. Because it's like, if people really know that I'm writing it should I just be like, so then I did this, you know, like, instead of tucking in the third person, it felt so weird for me to actually write in the third person when it was so clearly obvious that I was writing it. But I still don't know like the tricks of the trade on there. So
Brian Heater 20:47
you want you want my writerly advice as a professional writer? I really like I really like it. And I really liked the little, the little wink at the end? I think it's great. I think it's, it's, you know, I read a lot, I read a lot of press releases. And, you know, it's clear when things are written by somebody who had a deadline, or isn't super familiar with it, you know, that happens all the time. And you kind of are, you're kind of pouring your guts out a little bit in a very refreshing way, like, oh,
Tracy Bonham 21:25
well, I guess I can't not do that. I just can't help it, I guess. Oh, but I was gonna say the work on myself that I when I wrote that it was kind of pre diagnosis, it was pre like finding out that that some more serious stuff was happening.
Brian Heater 21:40
This is very recent, right? Very few months. Yeah, yes, exactly
Tracy Bonham 21:45
last few months. But I, it's an interesting story, at least to myself, it is. And I'm making a new album that has songs that are very much about this. And also I'm resurrecting old songs that can totally be about this. Just change the date. Where, which means like, if I learned anything, I don't know. I was really unhappy in my marriage, like really, really unhappy, but unable to make the changes I needed to or when I tried, it just was met with a lot of resistance in a way that really made me feel trapped. And the work I was doing on myself was about like going inward to really try and live a life where I'm, I'm really like conscious of what I'm doing. And I wanted to be the best version of myself. I wanted to kind of really think about, you know, what my intentions are, and when my actions and everything and I think in being unhappy, it, it just it it was really hard for me to like grapple with it. And I'm always afraid of confrontation. If I go back to some of my old songs, it's all about like, I could only confront someone in a song couldn't do it. Like, in real life.
Brian Heater 23:13
And again, I'm using this somewhat tongue in cheek, but I, in my time with my therapist had sort of like, you know, we I think we had gotten all we could out of it. And I you know, kept joking that I was breaking up with her. And it was so hard for me to do, in spite of the fact that it's you know, it's like a transaction transactional professional relationship. I still couldn't bring myself to do it.
Tracy Bonham 23:34
I hear you, right? Well, probably your he seemed like a very empathetic person. So when you're an empath, it's just really hard. You don't want to hurt people's feelings and the whole load of stuff.
Brian Heater 23:45
I was like, You did a great job. You know, like, she's, she's a professional. So she was she rolled with it.
Tracy Bonham 23:50
Yeah, exactly as she should. I mean, if anyone gives you Flack, especially as a therapist about speaking up, which I have had, like recently, in that marriage, I also had a really bizarre twist, not trust, a bizarre experience with the therapist. It was not
Brian Heater 24:07
really crossing the streams.
Tracy Bonham 24:10
I just love that word trust. It's not a trust, it was not at all. But it was weird. Because, I mean, I'm gonna write a book someday. And there's gonna be a whole chapter about that. And that therapist for sure. But he gave me so much flak about wanting to end it. And he was really weird and defensive. And he lured me back in it was just like, it was like the bad relationships I've had in my life that I'm trying to work out in therapy. It was like happening in real life. It was ridiculous. So
Brian Heater 24:40
empathy is part of it. But the other part is, especially with the relationship. The other part is understanding that you know that no relationships are perfect that there are going to be rocky times and you know, valuing being able to connect with the things that you saw in that person in the first place. Your concern that you might just To be completely throwing it away, even if that's not a rational, you
Tracy Bonham 25:03
try to find a good, let's try to that's really true. And I think it's, you know, if it's an important relationship, like, obviously, my marriage is really important. It's, I felt like uncover uncovering every stone was, I mean, that was a valuable experience to see if it would work, and to try and to go to therapy, or try to encourage Connection. And I think it's very valuable, especially when there's a child involved, for sure. It's, you have to look at things with a different perspective, maybe do a lot of self work, because, you know, I mean, I know, from therapy, and from just being on this planet, that there's, we all have an ego, and we all project our shit on to other people from early childhood stuff. We're all bringing around our maladaptive coping mechanisms. I love that term. But it's really true. And so if you can work on yourself, it really can help a relationship a lot. But what happens when you do all the work and it's still not working? I guess that's when you have to really accept the fact that maybe these two people, maybe shouldn't, they'd be better off, you know, if they weren't, you know? In a Yeah. In a marriage or in Yeah, how's
Brian Heater 26:26
your relationship, in a certain sense improved with him? Since it will? Yeah,
Tracy Bonham 26:33
I think it's still been pretty, it's pretty difficult. It was a long, long, long process. It was hard. It was not fun. And I think we're still both reeling from it. Unfortunately, cats really raw and I'm hoping, you know, someday, you know, maybe we have to both let go of some things like, I'm gonna have to realize that I'll, I might not never have like that real Connection with my son's father. And that's sad. But at least you know, we're co parenting very well. And that's good. But I'm hoping for everyone's sake, that there will be a Connection at some point, tell
Brian Heater 27:10
me if I'm totally off base on this, but, and in this, this is going beyond just the relationship, but it but it seems like one of the things that you've are grappling with just generally in life, whether personally professionally was effectively just going through the motions?
Tracy Bonham 27:30
Yeah. I mean, I know, I look back at, you know, life before this marriage and life, you know, whether I was on the west coast or the East Coast, it doesn't matter, like, kind of not sleeps, walking through life, but being, yeah, not really understanding who I was, and everything. And really knowing myself, and I think that's getting back to that point of like, really getting to know myself finally, after all these years, it's very valuable, but things you know, ultimately, they might have to shift. And then for me, finding out that I had a, you know, breast cancer diagnosis. And I was always already dealing with some other health stuff. Before that, even is the first time in my life I've ever had any kind of health stuff. And I kind of think it was like my body just saying, okay, already, like, that was rough. And, you know, I think the physical manifestations that happen are real. From all of the anxiety and everything, we
Brian Heater 28:41
should say, before we go any further, it sounds like you caught it really early, and that it's under control is that
Tracy Bonham 28:47
yes, I'm so incredibly lucky. I caught it early. And as you know, stage one, and I already had a lumpectomy and I'm about to, you know, go in to some radiation treatments and maybe chemo but maybe not so, I'm not out of that yet. But I know that I'm very, very lucky that I caught it early. I
Brian Heater 29:13
dealt with some health things nothing that huge but but any, any major health thing you go through, especially if you haven't gone through anything of that nature before it does put things into perspective, and it does help you get your priorities in order. Sure
Tracy Bonham 29:32
does. Really, really does. It's a gift I think, you know, I can say that because I'm not like sick sick, but it's really a gift.
Brian Heater 29:44
It might not have felt like it at the time and obviously you had your period when you were playing coffee shops, but you got success really quickly. It seems like you know it was it was that it was that first record you were you got you got sucked up into that like 90s major label or record alternative rock thing? And I just I don't think that there's any way wasn't there are a lot of people who had success at a young age who have like, you know who, who turned out really well adjusted, you seem very well adjusted. But there's no way that you can have that kind of success at that age, and it's not going to skew you a little bit.
Tracy Bonham 30:26
Oh, especially when it's immediate like that. There was no ramp up. I mean, I knew I wanted to be a musician all my life. So that was, you know, whether or not I'm going to be successful or not, I'm doing music, but the success and the fame was like a lot. And I remember in the 90s You know, it was kind of not cool, though to be like, major label there
Brian Heater 30:49
was that whole selling out was a thing. Yeah, selling
Tracy Bonham 30:52
it was not cool. So my label like paid an indie label. So it wasn't fully indie right to put out my first EP as if I will say fake, but it was like, as if I had been around a while being an indie artist when I clearly wasn't an indie artist at all. But you got astroturfed?
Is that what that what is astroturf?
Brian Heater 31:13
astroturfing? It's it's a political term. It's the opposite of like grass roots. It's like fake grass roots. Yeah,
Tracy Bonham 31:21
it was a fake grass roots. But I knew it like my tongue in cheek title. The Liverpool sessions was my own inside joke as if I'd been around so long, you know? And like you're
Brian Heater 31:31
playing the Cavern Club.
Tracy Bonham 31:32
Yeah, exactly. Right. So I kind of knew it was all bullshit. But you know, I didn't, I didn't. I didn't talk about it then. But now I can, because I think it's hilarious and so ridiculous, like, and all those bands back in the day that didn't look like they wanted to be famous or successful. But you know, they did. They were all clamoring for stuff that they're trying to look like they didn't care.
Brian Heater 31:56
I think Kurt specifically had a very big impact on that, you know, and obviously, he was dealing with a lot of very real stuff. But he shifted the culture in a in a huge way.
Tracy Bonham 32:07
He did and I and I felt for him. And I still feel, you know, for him in that way where it was hard. That was, it sounded like he was in a lot of anguish about it, too. And you meet a lot of fucked up people, you meet a lot of people who just are like parasites, you know, they just want something from you. And that's hard. And if you're a sensitive person, I'm sure he was and maybe I'm not as sensitive but still, like, if you're a sensitive person, you're gonna feel you feel used sometimes you feel uncomfortable. Why is this person talking to me? Or
Brian Heater 32:43
they talk to me because they liked me as a person, or do they want something? Yeah,
Tracy Bonham 32:47
exactly. Or they're treating me like I'm some kind of elevated thing when I'm not, you know, or if I remember hugging one person who came up for autograph and they were shaking and it was so bizarre to me. But, you know, that is a part of of the game, I guess.
Brian Heater 33:05
I mean, you probably been on the other side of that when you were younger, you can understand the excitement, right?
Tracy Bonham 33:11
I'm not much of a like, I don't, I've never my first you're not a star fucker is what exactly my first autograph was just because the dude was like in the room. It's like Chuck, man. Gionee
Brian Heater 33:27
that's an awesome first thing. Do you feel so good? It feels so good.
Tracy Bonham 33:35
Yeah, it was pretty silly.
Brian Heater 33:37
You made a very, I would say bold decision to me to do you told your record label to end a contract. Oh, who does that? Who does that? Well, God.
Tracy Bonham 33:50
I mean, it was like one of those relationships where it was a it was like, it was just ending and there was this like war of atrophy. Nobody really wanted to talk to each other anymore. And I have
Brian Heater 34:01
atrophy is a great album title.
Tracy Bonham 34:05
done it before I'm gonna go. I just knew I already knew. Honestly, when I really look back at it. I knew that when my first album came out, I was in trouble. I knew that by the second single, my a&r people were leaving to go to Epic Records and whatever. And then the things were shifting and universal. I can't remember I can't keep track. It was like Polygram sold Island to universal and then Seagrams got involved in that. You know, it's
Brian Heater 34:35
like these are like corporate machinations. It's not anything having to do with you necessarily.
Tracy Bonham 34:39
Know, it was all just a lot of corporate stuff. And I just saw that my time was going to be limited. And then when Def Jam came in, and I was trying to try to get in there with Lee or Cohen. And, you know, he was like Tracey, do you know who Lu Lee or Cohen is? Oh my god. He's like Tracey Don't you want to be at the party? You know, like, trying to get me to like, you know, I guess he realized that I was an artist, but that I didn't quite have that, like stab someone in the back to be famous thing. And I was like, Well, I kind of want to be at the party. But can I come in through the back door? Like I don't need a limo in the front like I was trying to work with them.
Brian Heater 35:21
You want to be able to Irish goodbye.
Tracy Bonham 35:23
Exactly. Irish goodbye. Whenever I need to. Exactly. That
Brian Heater 35:27
strikes me is very savvy, being able to read the writing on the wall, even as you were right in the middle of everything. Yeah. Yeah. It was just clear. I mean, you know, you have this huge single. Yeah, huge single. Yeah, really big first record, and you already saw the atrophy? Well,
Tracy Bonham 35:48
there's a song on my first album called one hit wonder. And that was like, I just, I don't know, I could just tell. I knew that this it was a fickle business. And I was kind of preparing myself, I hope I didn't, you know, what he call it manifest self of self sabotage. But it just, you know, and I had a manager who turned out to be a real dict. And like, I should have fired him. Here's, here's what we're talking about earlier, we're gonna go back to relationships and not being able to break up with someone who's clearly bad for you. He was so bad for me. And like he just started. I can't even tell you someday in my book. I'm like, I got so much I want to share. But I have to, you know, clear it with illegal
Brian Heater 36:33
when you were young, and he was professional, and you didn't know the business that well, you wanted to? Do you wanted to trust somebody you want somebody to have you back?
Tracy Bonham 36:40
Yeah, of course. Exactly. But then you realize, like, these people are just really in it for the buck, or the fame or the glory or drinking champagne out of a shoe or you know, like, really just want to make music and I want to I want to touch people. That's what I want to do.
Brian Heater 36:57
We talked about the first record, we talked about the third record, where does that sort of leave you? In the second and the interim?
Tracy Bonham 37:04
I can't keep track because like, there's so many years in between albums, too.
Brian Heater 37:08
It's five years. I mean, that's a forever. That's forever.
Tracy Bonham 37:12
It's like, well, the first one was definitely not my doing it all because of the music industry and stuff. But then the next one, it was like big life changes.
Brian Heater 37:22
What do you mean, it wasn't? You're doing? Well,
Tracy Bonham 37:25
okay, so between my first and second album, it was all of the stuff I just kind of mentioned briefly. Oh, the hiatus wasn't? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right at the time, like I was ready to release an album in 98. So that would have been two years after, which is, like long enough, and I'm ready to get there. But then they you know, the record label changed. And then I had new a&r people and they're like, I don't get the artistic numbers and then go write another hit single and I will buy you a piano if you go red and hit single. You know, so yeah, right. This this piano right here. So, but everything in between the other albums was basically life related stuff life, life got in the way, there's a lot of changes. And I guess I'm one of those writers is like, binge and purge or something. I don't even realize I have an album Ready until I'm like, Oh, I've got like, all of the stuff. Cool. Let's go make an album.
Brian Heater 38:20
That's your behind every good woman piano.
Tracy Bonham 38:23
That's exactly. That's my behind every good woman, Lee Arcona. And this is going to be the hit of the summer. away. He said, This is going to be the female strong female anthem.
Brian Heater 38:37
I was just listening to the song and it sounded it should have been ahead. It
Tracy Bonham 38:41
should have been but you know, what is being played on the radio at that time?
Brian Heater 38:45
What year are we talking about? 90,000 Okay, so new metal? Yes. Woodstock. 99 stuff.
Tracy Bonham 38:51
Exactly. I was there at Woodstock with Lior he brought me he invited me on his helicopter because somebody one of the four people on the helicopter, somebody like Kevin Liles or whatever was unable to go with him. So he asked me to go because I had just performed in their boardroom. And Lior and I had a nice lake. We've just had a nice report. So I went to Woodstock 99 with him on the helicopter. And I will never forget that day because it the the energy there was incredibly angry and volatile and a little bit scary. And I remember crying because I'm so sensitive. And Michael Lang who I got to know now and I remember he just like anything done by him as always, like either behind or late or never happening.
Brian Heater 39:44
You reconnected with that first record. He went through and kind of re imagined everything. What what what was the what was the impetus behind that decision? Well,
Tracy Bonham 39:57
you may know that a lot of art Let's go and they re record their first album, especially if it's Yeah, or they tore on the anniversary. Yeah, right anniversary, maybe they do a sound alike. And that was really the idea because, um, Island record is going to they're going to own my album masters in perpetuity. So the idea was to make a sound alike. And we did do Mother Mother. So that, you know, like, maybe I could actually make some cash on, you know, if I ever got a sync license or, you know, and let's see before then, like, was streaming streaming wasn't so huge yet, but I decided that was boring, because I was always I was like, I've already done that. And I know it's probably a really good financial decision. But that's not what leads me to do anything. It
Brian Heater 40:49
is good. Have you ever been listening to pulling up on whatever streaming platform you're using? And you're like, Oh, this isn't the original? Yeah,
Tracy Bonham 40:56
like, especially if you have good ears, like I mean, I can listen to mine. And I can, I can tell for sure. Maybe somebody might not be able to tell. But clearly, I can tell it's it's not the original
Brian Heater 41:07
course you did a 180.
Tracy Bonham 41:09
Well, so then it Yeah. So then my the producer that I worked with John Liszewski from a band called Late Cambrian. He's really creative and quirky. And we just started to just make, we were like, what if we just let go of any like, I'm not going to be precious. I'm not going to obviously make it sound like it used to. So let's just open it up. And for me, it was so liberating, because I already knew that the album did well. So there was no like, insecurities on the songs. I was like people like these songs. Now let's stretch it out. And then what happened was when 2016 elections came around, you know what I mean? And the campaign before then, we were talking a lot about misogyny. And we were watching this like circus of a man. And the way he operated, and then what
Brian Heater 42:00
happened, you could say, you don't have to, you know, the sneak around, right? Well, I
Tracy Bonham 42:04
don't like to see his name. I honestly cam up. Somebody sent
Brian Heater 42:06
a picture. And it's just him from behind. And you could just tell it. Now of course, exactly. That's a weird. Yeah. He's kind of leaning forward that weird way he does. Speaking
Tracy Bonham 42:15
of being behind him, I actually stood behind him on the red carpet. When I had a song in the Bridget Jones diary, soundtrack, and I was standing behind him directly behind him, and it was really weird.
Brian Heater 42:29
Anyway, you could tell at the time that Oh, not a cool, dude.
Tracy Bonham 42:34
Yeah, he was not a good dude. I don't I guess maybe that was already clear to me. Very sure. Very certain. And anyway, so Oh, yeah. So female empowerment became part of a conversation. And then my producer and I were like, What if we got other women, you know, women you admire from the 90s. Or maybe women you admire from now. And you ask them to be featured on the album. And that was so cool, because the responses from any of the women that I reached out to so nice, and to hear that, like some of my favorite singers were actually influenced by my first album. That was amazing.
Brian Heater 43:12
And you just toured with Jill Sobule. It sounds like
Tracy Bonham 43:16
I just like I just love cracking jokes with her. And she's so incredibly funny. And her writing is like, really great. It really inspired me. I really like the way she looks at things and the way she gets the audience, you know, to, to participate. And her songs are just so damn funny. And they're really smart. She's really smart.
Brian Heater 43:38
How did the ballet come about? Ah, that's
Tracy Bonham 43:41
the best thing ever. It was around it was during COVID. It was like 2021 April or something. And I got an email from the director of Eugene belay, you're from Eugene? Yeah, I am from Eugene. So when my manager forwarded me the email, I was like, this is cool. And the guy had said, you know, Suzanne, Suzanne Hague, the resident choreographer, is a fan of yours and is reaching out because she'd love to collaborate on a ballet set to your music. And they also said something that was very intriguing. They said to your new music as well. So I that was good to know, because I was like, do they want me to do Mother mother like for an hour of their you know, or do they? Are they appreciating my art for who I am? Now when at the time and, and it was clear, especially when I started to talk to Susie and we started having our creative meetings, that she was all about the new music. I think she'd followed me on social media, so she knew that my music had evolved. And for me, you know, I didn't ever I never thought about making a ballet to my music, but I'd have thought about
Brian Heater 44:55
why would you that's not like a given No,
Tracy Bonham 45:00
it's not at all. But I have thought about, you know, cinema or you know, visuals or, you know, and I my new music is is way more cinematic and evocative of that. Has
Brian Heater 45:14
your relationship with that song evolved? Did you resent it? appeared?
Tracy Bonham 45:21
Yeah, I did resent it for a period because that's all anyone wanted to hear. Yeah. And if I played it in the middle of set, like, then half of the audience was leaving. There
Brian Heater 45:30
was that funny thing of that, you know, the bands who played the song three times?
Tracy Bonham 45:36
Exactly. Exactly. After a while, though, you know, when I did versions, I'd sing it in Spanish, sometimes That'd be funny. I did that version that's like, on the modern burdens album, which I love. It's like a bluesy, 12 Eight version of it. Um, I started to come back around to it. I, you know, I think, I think doing that inner work really helped me keep my ego in check. And part of that was my ego was like, How dare they, you know, request that song. I more than that. But then. Now, the flip side is, well, how lucky am I that I have people requesting a song of mine, and then they want to sing along? So you know, why not enjoy that. It's a really cool position to be in
Brian Heater 46:23
for all of the difficulties of having that level of success early on. Like, that's why you have a career, right? I mean, that set everything in motion and everything that you have today and is directly or indirectly related to that first record.
Tracy Bonham 46:40
Yes. Foot in the Door. Absolutely. You're right. Yeah. And I'm proud of it to like the song. The song is so quirky, it's still so quirky. And I understand why, you know, like, you know, now you hear or, you know, in the 2000s and then now you still hear some of the female artists that were on heavy rotation back then they still are played on mainstream radio and I get it Sheryl Crow and Ella Lana's, or, or whomever. But I kind of know why Mother Mother is really still only played in select, you know, like, maybe alternative stations or lithium or whatever. And it's because it's so unique and quirky. It really kind of, I'm proud of that even though you know, there's there was a part of me that kind of wished it would have been, you know, one of those songs that's played on every playlist all the time.
Brian Heater 47:35
You're also literally yelling during the song, which might limit it a little
Tracy Bonham 47:40
bit, right? No, it's true, because I remember when we were eating dinner once, it was like when my album was first gonna come out. And so we got the waiter to put on the album, right? And you know, when this restaurant is, like, Upper West Side, and it's like, all of these old like, you know, business people, and I'm like, thinking about what it's going to sound like, when it goes to the chorus. You know, it's not like a dinner party album.
Brian Heater 48:03
Can you still yell?
Tracy Bonham 48:06
No, I don't want to anymore. It's a bad idea. Yeah, I paid I paid the price.
Brian Heater 48:13
You feel like sort of the the the angry young woman part of your life is in the past.
Tracy Bonham 48:20
You know, I still get pissed and I still write I'm still,
Brian Heater 48:23
but it's that silent. judgy kind of pissed.
Tracy Bonham 48:27
Exactly. The worst kind.
Brian Heater 48:30
You're not bad. You're disappointed. Yeah. Oh, yeah, exactly.
Tracy Bonham 48:32
Oh, right. To the good. Yeah, it's not as outward. It's not as like, pay attention to me. You know, it's more like, Okay, this sucks.
Brian Heater 48:42
The next set of songs. I mean, you're obviously channeling some. I don't know if anger is the right word, but it's, you know, deeply personal in the same way those early songs were
Tracy Bonham 48:50
true. It's true. It's just in a different package. And I feel it's a little more eloquent. Now. It's nuts. To be simple is nuts. To run clean?