A-Side Graffiti includes, among other things, a surprisingly faithful cover of Dr. Frank N. Furter's "Sweet Transvestite." The song finds Jack Grisham dueting with fellow So. Cal. punk legend, Keith Morris. TSOL's career has been surprising, above all. Ever the consummate showman and raconteur, Grisham presided over the group's initial shift from hardcore to gothic rock, before exiting the band in 1983. By the turn of the millennium, he had returned to the fold. Outside the band, Grisham has maintained several other fascinating careers, as a writer, filmmaker and 2003 California gubernatorial candidate.
Jack Grisham 0:13
It was during that when COVID was going on. I was I remembered this church and I thought, You know what I? I wonder what they're doing over there. I bet they got a room there something and so this is where the brides used to the room I'm in is where the brides used to change before getting married. So it's it's, it's it's a it's a cool room. It's right above the chapel. The chapel is right below me.
Brian Heater 0:37
Is it an active church?
Jack Grisham 0:39
It's active. Yeah, you bet. And then what else is cool too is they do a Sunday service here. But then they also rent the rent the space out to monks during the week. So there's just chanting just like every chanting and incense just coming up all day, all day long. It's great. It's pretty wild.
Brian Heater 1:01
Why did you seek out a church specifically?
Jack Grisham 1:04
Well, I was just, I knew the building was here. And I liked the building. And so I just figured, I'm just gonna go check it just, I didn't even know for sure if they'd even have a place. And of course, there was no one here and they were hard to get ahold of. And then I got a call and they and then when they told me what the office rent was, you know, it's air conditioned and heated with with, you know, the electricity is paid and the Wi Fi is here and everything. And they told me what, what the donation, it's a donation. What the donation is, and I'm like, Yeah, I'll take it. The bigger ones. If that's what they're going for. I'll take the whole floor. Give me the hotel floor,
Brian Heater 1:45
they're actually renting space out. You think it's a direct result of the pandemic? No,
Jack Grisham 1:49
I don't know. I actually I shot a movie in here. I shot a movie in this church. I rented out a big office I I directed the TSL movie ignore heroes. And so I rented out one of their larger office space rooms and brought carpenters in and basically had a set built inside the the office. And they were totally cool with it. They're like, what do you what do you do I go, I'm just going to shoot a movie. I'm going to bring some carpenters in. I'm not going to touch any of the walls, it's going to be built within and and they were stoked. The Reverend was up here checking it out. And they just
Brian Heater 2:25
is it a pretty progressive church then?
Jack Grisham 2:27
Yeah, it's pretty. It's pretty progressive. I think the most crucifixes in this building are in my office. They're pretty, they're pretty, it's like a it's like a, you know, a Center for Spiritual Living or whatever, whatever. They're pretty open minded here. They're pretty, pretty open minded, real, more, I think more of it a lot about positivity. And, you know, so, I mean, there's no I'm not, there's no religious write down. They're praying over me when I walk into the office, you know, I'm saying it's pretty, it's pretty. They're pretty open. Actually, I had a lady I was speaking to outside she was in that she had joined the Peace Corps in 1962, or something early, and she was telling me all about her experiences straight out of high school and going in the Peace Corps. And that was, you know, she's old. This lady's, she's, you know, in her 90s, or whatever. 80s
Brian Heater 3:24
I recently started doing some some volunteer work at a food pantry in my neighborhood. And one of the things that I really appreciate about it that I didn't expect is, it's almost like, like, forced interaction with people that you wouldn't necessarily normally interact with on a day to day.
Jack Grisham 3:44
Yeah, that's, that's interesting. See, I'm an interactor. It's, you know, my, my girl always says, you know, who the hell you're talking to over there. Because I'm always stopping and visiting. My My girl is lived on the same street forever, and she doesn't know any of her neighbors. And now, you know, I've been staying with her. And now, neighbors are stopping by to say, hi. She's like, you're talking to all these people. Because I'm like, I like going around visiting and chatting up with people. I like, people fascinate me. I love the stories. I love listening to people. It's just fascinating. I'm not very good at making, like solid connections. I've had trouble with that since I was a kid. But, but I'm good. At least I like listening. I like hearing their stories and seeing them. What's
Brian Heater 4:36
your sense of the disconnect between the two? Obviously, you're good at engaging with people, why doesn't that get to the next level? You
Jack Grisham 4:42
know, I mean, you could sit there and talk about, you know, childhood abuse issues and that kind of thing. And, you know, actually, I directed a film. The first film I directed was a short and it's called a 288. And it's about survivors of child abuse males survivors of child physical and sexual abuse. So anyway, and maybe that's got something to do with it, who knows, whatever it is, but it's just that, that that exactly. We said a disconnect, you know? I, but I enjoy seeing it. I like talking to people. So, but it just
Brian Heater 5:23
anyway, based on the books you've written based on the music you put out in the world, the conversations that you have the movie that you just the the TSL movie that you just mentioned, you're not afraid, sharing very deep and intimate things about yourself.
Jack Grisham 5:38
Yeah, it doesn't. I mean, it doesn't seem to bother me. But I think a lot of it has to do with, you know, the fact that I'm capable of just separating me from me, if that's it, like, it's almost like there's me. And then there's the person that has done these things that has no Connection to me whatsoever. Like, my girlfriend's a therapist, right? So it's funny, because I've been married a couple times, and just, you know, whatever. Nightmare but this is a good one, because, because one day, I was just totally freaking out over whatever issue was going on. And, you know, just losing it. And I go, nobody likes this. Nobody likes this. And she goes, Look, I like it. She goes, because everything I every time I come over here, I never know who's going to answer the door. You know, I mean, whatever.
Brian Heater 6:34
It's a good quality to have in somebody's life. Like they therapists tend to be very patient with you. Yeah,
Jack Grisham 6:40
yeah. That's what I like. Like when I'm totally lose that guy. When they say I said something today, Craig. He goes, Oh, okay. Okay. It was just, you know, whatever, thought it was whatever thought I was rolling on, you know, I'm gonna pack everything up. I'm moving. I'm taking off on my you know, blah, blah, blah, because Oh, okay. Okay. That's all right.
Brian Heater 7:01
That's the quality that that a good therapist has that I don't possess is the ability to, to listen to something and then not immediately judge it.
Jack Grisham 7:14
Right? See, that's your See, I want to I want to, I want to judge, I want to tear it apart. I want to solve it. I don't want to wait, let them solve it. I don't want to sit back and let them come to their own conclusions, which is really what what it takes. And I I'd like I always say, hey, let's let's look look, look, let's let's fix this. Let's solve this. Let's get to this. This is the issue. Show up. But yeah, my My girl is way better at it. She sits back she lets people come to you know, I just tell her sometimes I tell her look, I can't even listen to shit. You can't tell me what's going on? frustrates me, like crazy. You know, just give them their answers. Give me answers move on. But it doesn't work like that.
Brian Heater 8:02
It's a balancing act. Because I had I started seeing a therapist during the pandemic as probably like a lot of other people did, I hit that wall. And I'm definitely goals oriented person. And that's actually part of the reason why I recently changed therapist is because I just felt like we were just talking in circles. It's great. Having somebody to talk to this is nice and all but I actually want to feel like when I look back on these sessions, like I've gotten something out of them.
Jack Grisham 8:27
Right? Or have an excellent plan. That's the one thing I you know, I have a buddy that does and he just gets kid he gets students. He goes look all it's really about his meat dumping anyway. So I just hired these students. This guy's this guy's, you know, he's big producer, whatever the hell it doesn't matter what he does, I'm just say. So he goes and gets kids that are in college, and he just sits down and just basically just pukes for an hour, and then says thank you and walks out at 20 equity uses it for just somebody do this, listen to his crap for an hour. And then he walks out. Now for me, I always want an exit plan. It's like, look, how long am I going to be visiting with you? When can we see some results? Why don't you just tell me how to fix this? Just fix it and then I'm gonna move on. But it doesn't work that way. Yes,
Brian Heater 9:19
it No, because I mean, you strike me as somebody who has made a lot of personal progress over the decades.
Jack Grisham 9:26
Well, I think yeah, and I Yes, but I think a lot of it has been I got sober 35 years ago. So a lot of it was been for me just waking up. Like, like, just the fact that I can see what I'm doing. See how I treated people see how I was acting. And when you have that awareness, you see, it's like, oh, okay, I'm done. I'm not doing that anymore. It's like a it's like a crumb on your lip at dinner. Somebody says, Hey, you got you know, and you just get it off and you're done. You know, but But you got to see it first. So so a lot of that is just me seeing it and just saying yeah, I'm going to repair this damage. Bad news, I don't like it.
Brian Heater 10:04
Repairing damages is a good way of putting it. And I know that you do wrote a book on the recovery process, I think specifically the 12 step process. How would you? How do you think your approach to it was different than sort of the more conventional approach to 12 Step?
Jack Grisham 10:23
Well, I think, what's what's interesting to me is interesting that the conventional approach is, think for yourself, nobody's in charge, no bosses, everything is everything can be done a different way. There's no right way of doing things. There's a 12 step framework, but within that framework, a multitude of ways, a multitude of ways to do things. Now, that's the original intent of that program. Now, as the years went on, people started getting controlling. And you get guys saying, Well, let me tell you what to do here. Now, this is the way we're going to do it. This is how recovery work, bla bla bla bla bla. And so these days, that sounds fundamental, but it's not. So basically, I go back to the beginning of it and say, Look, I'm not God, I don't know what's going on. I don't know what you're supposed to do. I don't know what you know, it's like, I'm not going to give you any advice, I'm not going to tell you what to do, I'm just going to share with you what I did, here's how I got out of this, this, how I clean this up. This is how I take this on the road. You know, nobody's in charge to me. I was taught early on, you know, a lot of people come into recovery, you know, and they're looking for a mommy or a daddy, they're looking for a boss, somebody tell him what to do a quick answer whenever and when I came in, I was taught that, hey, time to grow up, grow up, you're your own boss. But if you're your own boss, you better be taken care of some business. You know, and and learn how to be responsible, learn how to grow up. So basically, in the recovery book, I wrote, I talk about that, hey, here's how I did this. Here's how I grew up. Here's how I work this deal. And so it's really, I'm a fundamentalist, but compared to a lot of recovery today, it seems like it's heresy. But it's it's really not
Brian Heater 12:24
especially interesting in the context of me talking to you from a from a church, obviously, the whole higher power thing is something that a lot of people talk about, around this is is there a sense in which that is seeking that authority figure?
Jack Grisham 12:39
Well, what's funny is I'm an agnostics. I'm an agnostic, who has an office in a church.
Brian Heater 12:48
That's like, I've not been through the program myself, but that it can be anything that you choose to sort of invest in. Yeah,
Jack Grisham 12:55
I mean, there were there were things to think about. It needs to be well, that's hard. It's a little hard to explain. I laugh, sometimes I would hear some people say, Well, you know, make your higher power a doorknob. And then somebody would say, oh, that's ridiculous. But if you look at a doorknob as a symbol, as a tool to bridge the way into another room, well, that's legitimate. That's a, that's a lunch. That's a legitimate way to look at things. So So for me, I keep it very, I keep it right here, right on this secular level. And if I study if I'm studying any sort of Scripture, or do any readings or whatever, it's, it's just I just apply it to how can I be a better servant? How can I be kind to the people around me? How can I be more loving more giving more helpful? So every thing I read basically just applies to that I I have no idea if there is a God, what God looks like what it is, I don't have the vanity to say that I know what God is, you know, so I just use those things just to be a better dad, a better friend, a better band may to better whatever it is to just try. I put attacks on the World and everyone around me for so long. That I'm basically just paying that back.
Brian Heater 14:11
I was reading an interview that you did and paraphrase you but this is a little while ago now. But I guess probably about 10 years ago doing the math. You said I've spent the last 24 years since since I was 26 years old paying back what I did, right what what does it mean to pay back?
Jack Grisham 14:29
Well, I don't necessarily know I mean, sometimes it is just literally pain back pain back what you took pain back, you know, I consider taking power. That's also taking power from people, you know, returning that which was stolen, returning that power to them or I know that gets that's kind of a weird concept a little bit, but basically, some of its been cash. Some of it's been just to owning up to what I've done some of it's just like repairing wounds, basically making amendments, repairing wounds. That's what it is, and not craving any more trying to be helpful. It's like, that's my goal now is to just constantly be helpful to people to just and sometimes just be kind, just to be kind to be nice, just a smile. Uh, hello. You know, I had just, I just finished a short film, and it's called Good morning. And that's what it's called. And it's about one word, the whole dialogue is good morning. That's it. It's, it's the whole word. And, and it's about a man who, it starts with a muppet. In an old apartment, you know, it's kind of rundown or whatever. He's there. And you see pictures of his wife and his kids. And he gets himself dressed up, fixed up, and he walks outside, and he gets a little way down the street. And somebody says, Good morning to him. And he turns around, and he goes back. And this plays out throughout the days. And sometimes he gets a little further before someone says good morning to him. And then he always stops and turns around, and then on the last day, they never said, and he walks to a bridge and just jumps. And that was it that good morning, that one kind word was the only thing that was keeping him here.
Brian Heater 16:20
I'm of a few minds of this, because there are certain ways in which Punk has historically been very earnest. But also I think that there is this also this compulsion to view everything with an ironic lens for some people and to not be to not be too earnest for fear of appearing to be, you know, corny, or cheesy. Is that Is that something that you had previously sort of fought against? Being too earnest?
Jack Grisham 16:48
Well, I still fight against it now.
Brian Heater 16:51
What it is that short film is, that's a very earnest subject. Right? But
Jack Grisham 16:56
you know, and saying it with, you know, a little humor, a little shit talk and a little, you know, it's just like, lighten up, man. It's okay, here's the goal. But let's not take ourselves too seriously, let's not get preachy, let's not get you know, you're not going to catch me given sermons anywhere, you know, I'm a firm believer of people's lives, or their own to live, you know, it's not none of my business what anyone else does, I just, I try to take things lightly, and kind of fool around a little bit. And big talk. That's what we made a friend. That's just big talk your big talk right now. And just, you know, go easy with it. I mean, oh, my God, I hated those bands that would get too preachy. And too, you know, like, to me, there's something about me, that just makes me want to rebel. And immediately when somebody starts acting like that, even if I believe, you know, what they're saying, I still just, you know,
Brian Heater 17:56
just the other week, last week, I was talking to, specifically to my therapist about this about I was talking a little bit about my professional career, and I told her, you know, I'm sometimes worried that maybe I'm not in the place where I would like to be or I'm not, you know, you know, moving up the way I would like to because I tend to be too jokey and maybe when you make too many jokes, like people have difficulty taking you seriously but for me, and I think this is probably something you can deeply relate to, but for me my entire life like having a sense of humor and being able to tell jokes is almost a shortcut that I found to just cut just cut to the quick and to just immediately connect with people Yeah,
Jack Grisham 18:42
I agree with you but I also that the thought of of that do people really take you seriously when you're talking so much like that? Make a lot of jokes and screwing around a little bit but yeah, Kuma i That's funny, you say that because I connected with a guy today. Like that, that he was a little tight. He was a little tight. I was I was trying to take my motorcycle over to the shop to get it repaired. And I had to I had to get I had to call people up to get a jump, you know, whatever the hell it was. And the guy showed up and he's kind of real stiff, real tight, or whatever it is. He goes to put some gas inside the tank, and he starts putting it in. I go that stays so right. It's like, well, what stops and he goes, Oh, you got me. You got me. You got me and then he started laughing. And then it just opened up a whole situation. The guy ended up hanging out we're having a cold drink together, you know, and just talking about whatever but but it was that little bit of humor that little bit of lightheartedness that you know, and but sometimes it's funny. I'll be out to screw it around and sometimes I'll do that I'll smart as somebody else say something and sometimes they don't buy it. It's not funny, they're not okay with it, you know, and my kids always laugh me that that didn't go over well, or laugh. My daughter slap about that
Brian Heater 20:10
I once had a teacher telling me and this is like Jen is genuinely changed my life to a certain extent. She said, Brian, not everybody gets your sense of humor. And I took that to heart, just like you can't, you can't assume immediately that people are going to kind of be on your wavelength and understand where you're coming from.
Jack Grisham 20:32
Right? feel out the crowd read the room. Sometimes I'm not gonna read in the room. That's funny you say that. I'll tell you what a professor once said to me, the hook sometimes teachers, Professor, whoever they say something I know what mine was. I was screwing around, and not taking stuff seriously screwing around. I was I was attempting to go back to school. You know, whatever it is little college, I roll in there said like a quiz, like a little thing that morning to wants to just see where we're at, or whatever. So I just grabbed the book and just blew through it really fast night. I took it and I was done in a second. I sat it down. And, you know, I walked out, I took off, right. And I came back and the next session, you know, she walks in, and she said, You didn't study this material whatsoever, did you? And I go, No, no, she goes, Well, you know, you aced that test. And I kind of smile like kind of little cocky kind of smile. And she goes, and you have no idea how sad that is. And then walked away from me. And it's like that little line, you know, made me think so much how sad that is, you know, what a lack of effort I've put into things. And you know, how I didn't take things seriously? And how, yeah, that intellect or whatever gets me here. But where could it have gone? Who could what it could have served, you know, and I chose not. And that stayed with me shit. It's been 20 something years, it's been longer than that. It's been 37 years. I'm still still thinking about it. That
Brian Heater 22:14
specifically is an interesting lesson though. Because like, at the end of the day, you could have studied more and you you wouldn't have done any better than you ultimately did on the test.
Jack Grisham 22:23
Right? Exactly. But I've looked at my life completely like that just blowing through it. Yeah, it is, I wouldn't have done any better on the test than I did. But that's how I've looked at everything, just this kind of like I'm just gonna skate in here, I'm just gonna do this. I'm not gonna there's no real care put to a lot of things.
Brian Heater 22:41
You're referring specifically to relationships in your life, the art that you make,
Jack Grisham 22:46
while back saying yeah, and of course, like I said, this close to 30 years ago, there's a big difference between the way I look at things now. And then but a lot of it was that just skate through skate through skate through. And just really not no awareness, a lack of awareness. I'm not very astute when it comes to anything. Basically, I just wander around until somebody stops me and says, Hey, hang on a minute. Have you ever looked at it this way? Have you ever thought of doing this? Have you ever tried to write a book? Have You Ever Have you ever really looked at what someone else wrote and how they wrote it and what went into it? You know, or you just take everything like this it's it's so really really started making me see in art or whatever, you know, music literature, whatever it was the amount of work that goes in and the style and the way thing way people are, it just made me just stop for a minute
Brian Heater 23:40
focus. to certain extent, though. I mean, we all require some sort of external stimulation, especially if we're going to change course but the key to it is, is being open to that the key to it is you know, is and I find this incredibly difficult in my own life is like, is accepting criticism as being genuine and being from a good place?
Jack Grisham 24:05
Well, and that's the other thing like critique that was something I never wanted, nor am I going to listen to you. And you know, it's funny that I hunger for it now. Now, not necessarily during the project when I was working on the the TS wealth film, The ignore heroes film, I wouldn't take anyone's advice. I wouldn't listen to anyone. Anything said to me, you know, if you ever deal in the film world, it's so crazy. No other art. No other art in the world is like this, where you can be in the middle of a project and somebody go well, let me give you my notes on that. Let me tell you what I think it's like, wait a minute, man. I'm just breaking out the palette. Don't need your notes. I mean, could you imagine that an art if somebody you know stopped? You know, Jackson Pollock said no, hang on a minute before you lay down that orange. Let's you know, let me tell you what I think about orange. You know, it's crazy.
Brian Heater 24:59
Yeah, I feel like there are instances of that near, you know, I want to say like the Sistine Chapel of you know, Michelangelo receiving feedback as as he was doing it, and it never, if you interrupt the artistic process, it never ends. Well, no,
Jack Grisham 25:13
but in film, they take that that's accepted. And I'm gonna look at further notes, their take on this thing or whatever, you know. And for me, I'm not a fan of it. It's like, Hey, let me do my work. But then I want to hear what you say, after I do my work, then I'm really good. I want to listen to your critique. Give me where it first, where do you come from? What's your experience? Give me what you think of this, you know, something I could look at. And, and now it's it my age now or whatever I'm doing I hunger for critique, honest, hard, challenging questions about all of it. You know, that's how I learned I need it.
Brian Heater 25:53
I mean, as long as the person giving you feedback is genuine there. I'm sure there are instances, you know, music being a studio, for example, where it's useful to have people to bounce ideas off of. Yeah, I guess and no. I mean, we're getting to the heart of it now. Yeah,
Jack Grisham 26:11
there's that I've used within this band called The Joy killer. And one of our records, joy, killer three, I got the whole band together in the studio, before we lay down one note. And I said, I just want to pre apologize for what I'm going to do to you. Because where that was going, because I had heard it in my head. And I heard it and I knew where it needed to go. And I basically just beat him up. I beat them all up, you know. And I mean, one one of the parts was I'll tell you, it was funny, the guitars in this one section. And this song, were out of tune with the piano, the song's called ordinary, and the the guitars Raticate tune from the keyboards. So when the producer and I were listening back, we said, hey, let's just mute those guitars here, because they're, they're not working right now. So let's just mute them. So we're not going to listen to that. And the minute we hit the mute button, this big large chorus turned into this small intimate chorus with larger verses, because the guitars were now gone. And I thought, Oh, my God, there it is, right there. We don't need those guitars, those guitars are out list and the guitar is just crazy. You know, he just went, you know, he went ballistic. But I still believe it was the right move. It was the right move. So the fact
Brian Heater 27:42
that you're able to distinguish that that specific instance leads me to believe that it's at least like somewhat of an anomaly in your career to be like that, to that micromanager, or that hyper fixated or that closed off to suggestion.
Jack Grisham 27:57
Well, yeah, I guess and yes and no. On the last TSL record, we did the, the our keyboard player, Greg Keane said, Hey, we need you to be you. So don't start playing soft now. You we need you to be you. You may not like it. Because sometimes I don't like it when I get that way. Didn't feel good. You know, when you're coming hard like that. Just you know, hey, this way, we're going to do it, we're going to do it. It doesn't necessarily feel good to me. But sometimes that's what it takes. Sometimes it takes somebody doing that, you know, and and so our keyboard is he just came to me. He said, Look, I know you don't like it. But you know, you got to be you. You got to be on this man. Don't don't pussyfoot this. Yes. You know, we trust you. So be you,
Brian Heater 28:49
you and when I say you, I mean he specifically there's, I think in a certain sense that not caring about criticism has been almost a superpower for you over the years, that it's allowed you to go in all these all these different directions, because you're not seeking people's approval.
Jack Grisham 29:08
Well, you know, and that's, I mean, that's the bottom line, isn't it? Who you making films for who you're writing books for who you make, and that was the one thing I learned a lot is because there was a time period where I was basically trying to sell myself because I was broke man, I'm living at my mom's house. I don't have anything. I just, you know, I, I was I was broke. And so I was just slowly peeling away parts of myself. You know, somebody suggests that might do it the record label at the time working with a major record label, and, you know, they'd say, Oh, we want this with and I'm giving it I'm giving it and I'm giving it and then hunt sales who played with you know, Iggy, pop and Bowie and the drummer Hunt. Hunt told me one time he said Jack you've been playing hardball your whole life. Don't start playing softball now. You know, and he and and Basically he was right. I play hardball. That's what I do. I play hardball. But the stuff that I create isn't necessarily financially Luke, you know, it's not that, you know, it's like it so so sometimes just sticking to your guns is kind of a little bit of a, you know, it's a bit you you know, when you can't come up with a bill you can't you're homeless again it you know, 50 something years old or whatever, and you may have integrity, but integrity doesn't pay the bills. Okay, a funny story. I was on a, I was on a panel at a publishers luncheon. And, and it was me and one of the guys from toto had a Smash Mouth. And, like, whatever, showing this this nice lunch and you know, and anyway, so one of the one of the publishers stood up and they said, Well, Jack, Is it strange for you? You're, you're the only one at the table there. That's not a multi million seller. And the guy from toto said, yeah, he's also the only one with any credibility. That was, was we were all laughing It's pretty
Brian Heater 31:10
funny. Credibility doesn't always pay the bills. So that that period for you, that would have been what around like, 2005?
Jack Grisham 31:19
Shoot, I It's been on and off all through, on and off.
Brian Heater 31:22
I bring that up specifically. Because, again, like, you know, I don't know if I was reading or listening to an interview that you did, but you specifically mentioned sleeping in a car. And you mentioned that in the year 2005.
Jack Grisham 31:37
Well, how about 2024? I just lost my permit.
Brian Heater 31:45
So you're dating a therapist? So you know, you're definitely a step up from the car?
Jack Grisham 31:50
Yeah, well, you know, finance your own film, that's a good way to lose an apartment, you know, that's film school, you know, do Kickstarter and take out loans and do whatever to finance a film. And, you know, basically, you take a beating from that, too. So, but add on my, you know, I'm standing my girls house now All my stuff's in storage. I'm staying at my girls house. My daughters are dividing up anything. That's good. I still have my office. But I tell you a funny story. One time I was given a talk somewhere, and, and I was homeless at the time, when I was literally living out of a car, all my stuff was in a car. And so I, they were introducing the speaker who was me that night. And they said, well, our speaker tonight from Maine looked at me, the guy looks at me and smiled. He goes, I think he's from our parking lot this evening. And it was pretty funny to go up. And, you know, you go up and give and I thought it was immune. I was laughing You know, and you're you're going up to give a talk on spirituality or whatever. And you know, you're living out of a car. Yeah,
Brian Heater 32:56
but there's that's exactly the time that people need spirituality is when they're at their lowest. That's right.
Jack Grisham 33:01
It's a lot. But here's what's interesting. People always, you know, they're looking for books, how to get what you want, and be happy. Nobody wants to read a book, How to not get what you want and still be happy. That's not really
Brian Heater 33:15
how to enjoy living out of your car. It's probably not
Jack Grisham 33:18
That's right. Yeah, yeah. That's not as easy as cell at the
Brian Heater 33:22
time. What did what did spirituality bring to you?
Jack Grisham 33:28
A Connection to those around me. And that's all that's all it was. I mean, there's that great John Donne thing. No man is an island where all promise stories and each man's death diminishes me. I think he was speaking about England. But anyway, it's it's the Connection, Connection, Connection Connection. You know, I I'm one of those idiots always likes to put something together put something together. I love Charles Dickens when he's writing A Christmas Carol and this the mom the speech that Marley gives. And he says mankind was my business. The common good was my business. This is the spirit anything outside of me the awareness that somebody exists other than me. You know, I think there's a funny scene in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest with Jack Nicholson and he's playing cards with the guys and Danny DeVito is care command city comes up and he starts talking to him. And Jack Nicholson says Hey, hang on a minute. These are real people hear his her real people. And you know that he was of course he's mentally ill is characters mentally ill in that, but so self absorbed so self centered that no one exists besides his needs. And on the extreme. You can watch people that walk in front of people when they're talking. They'll walk into a conversation and just start speaking as if no one there exists other than them. So it's, you know, it's awareness of the people around I'm doing. And then lately I've been on this thing lately where self absorption almost seems to be the price for awareness. I was less self absorbed before I was aware because I was just operating and never checking myself, then all of a sudden, I come into this awareness like, oh my god, what are you doing here? What are you doing here? What are you doing here? What are you doing here? And, you know, it's, you got a little more self absorption, I guess, because you're really constantly checking yourself and making sure
Brian Heater 35:32
there's a certain extent to which you would think that awareness generally would almost be the opposite of that, because awareness also means being aware of other people and their needs. Right, so that runs counter to self absorption to
Jack Grisham 35:48
It does, doesn't it? That's not the case. Because I'm cuz even the awareness that hey, alright, what's happening here? What's what's going on? What is he saying to me? What is what is my part here in this conversation? You know, what said that constantly wondering, Where do I fit? Where do I stand? There's a great line about humility. And in the line, it says, humility is just an honest appraisal of where I stand between God and my fellows. Like so. So I think when you're aware, you're you're constantly checking that bouncing it off bouncing up ping, ping, ping, ping, you know, what's happening, what do you do? Are you stepping over the line here? So there is some self absorption, that it's kind of a bit of a joke, to say that, but it's also there's a bit of truth in every joke. Also, one
Brian Heater 36:35
piece of internet culture, one phrase from internet culture that I that I've really come to appreciate is have you heard NPC before?
Jack Grisham 36:44
The like a, like a, in a game
Brian Heater 36:46
non playable character? Yeah. Which is, which is such a beautiful, like idea what we know when you apply that to the real world, because that's how that's how most people are going through life. Right? Most people are going through life as the star of their own video game and everybody else, there's just these dialogue characters.
Jack Grisham 37:04
Well, exactly, that's in the awareness that, hey, you're not these, these are people, their own lives their own. You know, that's why we stopped, like, if I call somebody I always say, you know, Hey, Am I Am I intruding in this call? Am I Are you doing something? Are you I don't think you're sitting around waiting. For me, they just call you just talk to you or whatever. You know, it's,
Brian Heater 37:28
I've had that experience, though, in life where, you know, obviously, you implicitly know that that's the fact but then you'll run into somebody who hadn't seen for years and you're almost shut your system is shocked by the fact that their life continued on without you.
Jack Grisham 37:44
Well, that's, you know, that's funny that f So, in Ts Well, my band test well, I quit for a while and I was mad at them that they continued to use the name. So I was pissed at them. It's like, you know, God, look at all the damage. Look what they've done, blah, blah, blah. And I was talking I wish this guy was still around. You would love this guy. My friend Alan. Rosencrantz is great. Oh, great old guy. He was a gangster guy that had gotten straightened up. And you know, just, you know, he's lost a leg, his legs Mitzi, you know, just like a character out of a movie. And he said to me one time it goes jack, so tell me how this went down. I understand. You're very angry. Very angry. Now. When did they kick you out of the band? When will you kicked out of that band? I go, doubt when kicked out. I quit man. I walked through eagled Whoa, whoa, whoa, now wait a minute. You walked away left them stranded. And you're angry? Because they tried to continue the livelihood without chip? Is that what you're upset about? I never looked at it like
Brian Heater 38:53
that. You know, it just knocks you on your ass when somebody is able to put things into context like that. Exactly.
Jack Grisham 38:59
Come in from outside like that. And I said yeah, I guess not. I mean looking at it like that. Yeah,
Brian Heater 39:06
at the same time you know, I understand that from the standpoint of say you break up with somebody but you still you still like the person you know, you still got somewhat a relationship with them. You theoretically want them to succeed the part of you is like yeah, you know, you know a little bit maybe a little bit of like Shoten fraud isn't the worst thing in the world
Jack Grisham 39:28
I Yeah, that's interesting. I'm I'm friends with all my exes, all my ex wives except for the one that died. I you know, I literally want I literally want the best for them. I want them to be happy. I want it i i want them to be if I could, if there was anything I could ever do for any of them. I would do it. I do it right now. You know, whatever I could do I would give to them. So yeah, I
Brian Heater 39:57
guess the part of it the part of it that I saw, you know I'm also, you know, in friendly with with just about all my exes and a part of it is like, I just want them to miss me not saying I want them back. I don't want to be in a relationship. I understand why it ended. I just from time to time I want them to miss me, you know, think
Jack Grisham 40:17
fondly of me? Yes. You know that that font until one of the first films I directed was a short film called to ADA about child abuse. And, and it all started, because I wrote a sort of love letter basically, to the person that had abused me. And it starts with I wonder if you remember me, I wonder if you fondly recalled the times you touched me. So it was like, it was that thought of thinking, hey, does this person miss me? Did they? Did they care about me? Did they see me as more than just some physical thing was that? Could they see any amount of person and me and basically that, that started me on a whole film about child abuse and a monologue at the end about whether that person misses me or not.
Brian Heater 41:09
There's a deeply complex thought that I can't even begin to attempt to unpack.
Jack Grisham 41:17
It was for me to lot unpacking. It was like, Hey, man. It's yeah, very uncomfortable, very uncommon, but it was a thought it was a thought. It's like, I wonder if this person think thinks of me, the way I think of a person and the way I think of a relationship or whatever i What was I did this person. I mean, was I literally nothing? Literally nothing, nothing more than a towel? Or whatever it was, whatever, you know, nothing, nothing, an inanimate object? Or do you think back to my spirit? Do you think back to what I was who I was?
Brian Heater 42:00
Do you have more perspective on that than you did at the time? I don't know
Jack Grisham 42:04
if I do or not. I think after I created that film, if you get a chance, you'd go, it's free. It's on Vimeo, you can look it up to ADA. And very, it was a difficult piece. And also, the thing about that film is I employed at a technique that I had never based as far as I can tell, from everyone I talked to, it's never it's never been used before in film. So basically, no one who was in that film knew what the film was about. Except for me. I was I was, some guys shot a small documentary on me. And I went to a film festival and I was watching the films in the film festival. And I was thinking, you know, some of these are written so well, but the acting is so poor. You know, in some of some of these, sometimes you stumble on great actors, but you're not getting you know, if you're making small little films, the acting is not great, a lot of most times. So. So what I did is, I thought, I'm not going to tell any of these. Okay, here's how the whole thing even started, you know, I made a comment on social media one morning, some silly comment about, you know, I can't I can't start my day without a cup of hot coffee in the morning, whatever, just noxious little comment. And then people started commenting on it, you know, and they, I needed black, I needed hot, I needed blah, blah, blah, you know, this kind of thing. Then I went back, and I deleted the original post, and rewrote the post of a sexual nature. And then their coffee comments all seem to be applying to that post. And then people will started coming in later and going, what the hell's with these comments, man, who are these people? Going? So So I thought, Okay. Okay. So then, when I went and wrote this movie, this 288 movie, when I wrote it, I got actors. I, well, they weren't even actors. They're just friends. These were just people. I knew this guy. So I knew. I said, Hey, I'm making this film. Do you want to do it? They said, Yeah. So I came over and I asked them questions. I was seeking honest answers. So I would ask them, Have you ever been betrayed before? Has a friend ever hurt you? What did it feel like? So they're not acting? They're giving me legitimate answers to that question. Hey, I didn't see it coming. Hey, it hurt man. I was I was heartbroken, man. This This guy was close to me. It was like a father figure blah, blah, blah, you know. So here with these answers, then I took those answers and basically cut them, took them and then applied them to sexual abuse and physical abuse. And so they're giving me honest answers. to a question that wasn't asked of them. And and it's it's gnarly. I sat at the first film festival that it showed, and I sat in a theater and just listened to people sob, sob and, and then the perpetrator that's in the film. I told him to talk to me. He was a veteran, he served in Vietnam. And I told him to talk to me about entitle ship, like people being entitled entitlement and kids days and whether they have any. And he was saying things like, they need to stand on their own two feet, they gotta quit crying. They blame everybody for their problems. Why are they looking to me, I'm not the I'm not the problem here. They're the problem. And so in the film, you hear those that were abused, and then you hear the abuser, denying the abuse, and attacking them for what they said and how they're making things up. And when you put the two together, it was extremely uncomfortable, extremely uncomfortable. And then at the end, it's a monologue of my letter.
Brian Heater 46:04
Do you think that the project is more powerful if people have the for knowledge of what you did or just coming in cold?
Jack Grisham 46:13
Well, sometimes they get mad when they find out what I did. Because it's so Billy, I'm but I'm talking to you. Because who knows whoever got a chance to speak on this again. But yeah, a lot of times they're mad, because it's it's like, What do you mean, there's no unicorn, there's no. It's like they've been shown this thing, and they believe it's real. And now they're told this is not real. But the interesting thing is out of the people that were in the film, a few of them actually turned out where they came to me and said, Hey, I was molested. I was, I was hurt like this. And they were there was only one of the participants that refused to go on with the film. They wanted to be pulled out of it. They didn't they didn't want to be part of it, even though it says that they're actors at the start.
Brian Heater 47:04
When was it revealed to them what the project was? And when did they pull
Jack Grisham 47:09
out? When it was the end, when it was done? After it had been? One of them? I think one of them kind of had an idea. I don't even think he didn't know what the project was. But I think the questions were becoming very uncomfortable to him. So I think that even though that's not what I was asking him, I think that those answers in the his responses that I was looking for, were touching what had happened to him. If that, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's
Brian Heater 47:42
an interesting approach for a number of reasons. You know, one of which is I wonder if you just had the sense before going into it, that it was just such a hard topic to talk about that maybe wouldn't get people to really discuss it in that honest and earnest way.
Jack Grisham 47:58
Well, and definitely not the people that were in that film. Not that that demographic, or whatever it is, you know, you don't get a lot of like tough guys coming out saying they had been raped or molested, you know, whatever it is, it's just not very. It's not talked about, you know, it's not talked about they don't they don't realize that that a lot of these victims are not what they think victims look like,
Brian Heater 48:21
What gave you that courage initially to talk about it?
Jack Grisham 48:26
Once again, for me, it's disconnection. It's probably I think that the act itself what happened to me created my my ability to not let it bother me. Because you're so you're so separated from that sense of self, you're gone. I heard this woman really interesting. I really enjoyed it. Nicholas Ray, who was a directory did rebel without a cause or whatever his daughter's a writer Niko Ray. And she she wrote this great piece. And she said that when she had been hurt like that, as a child, she had an easy bake oven. Her grandmother used to bake and so she had an easy bake oven, the kids would have, and her mother used to smoke. And she used to smoke, she would pretend to be smoking and using the Easy Bake oven. And so the person that hurt her, she basically had put it where they hurt someone that was not as had didn't have a sense of self. She was still her grandmother and her mother, she was not yet herself, which I thought was a really interesting way to basically separate yourself from the abuse. Dissociation, I think is exactly that. Yeah, to disassociate and the same thing, the first novel I wrote American demon, it's written outside of myself. It's written from this demon perspective that they basically It's a trick of disassociation that pulls me back allows me to basically lay it out to tell the truth as I saw it, to not worry about looking bad being hurt, whatever, because it's not me. It's not me. And in the same way, playing in a band, I did the same thing. This guy on stage he said, Me, it's not me. When I stopped drinking, and had to get back on stage, it was terrible. It was terrible. It was so uncomfortable. Because I'm I'm like an M A nerd, man. I'm just, uh, you know, I'd rather sit around the house and read I don't normally even when we play shows, people always go well, where's Jack leaves in the car reading we get them five minutes before we're supposed to go on, you know, or whatever the hell and dumb. When I first played a show sober I was so uncomfortable. So uncomfortable, because I'm exposed, exposed. And you know, later on it was I was able to really dig up how it felt before going on. And I was able to separate myself and be that guy on stage versus the guy off stage. Who a lot of people think I'm this real extroverted cat. And I'm, I'm not, I'm completely the opposite of I leave a small, little small couple of friends life.
Brian Heater 51:20
I'm the same way I do this. And I can talk to strangers, but I can't you know, my thing is if I go to to a party and don't know anybody, I'm just going to sit off in the corner because I for whatever reason, I just can't one on one, you obviously don't have this the same exact problem. But I have difficulty engaging in in that setting for some reason, and it's really hard for my brain to reconcile these things.
Jack Grisham 51:41
Well, because the that's funny because because when I walk into a party, I'm playing a part. There was a great there was a great I'm a big fan of early science fiction, you know, Heinlein, Asimov, you know, Bradbury Kutner. Allison, you know, I love that stuff. And there were
Brian Heater 52:00
things Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Jack Grisham 52:02
I gotta, I gotta soundings in the book. Anyway, there was a great story about this guy walks into a bar, and he's like, six foot three, and he's big, and he's loud. And he comes in and the whole room lights up. And they're all like, the girls are coming by him. And the guys are glad handing him and it gets a Dre mic, the bartender, everybody's stoked it. The whole rooms alive. And he says, And now I'd like you to meet my handler. And he stops and he freezes. And a door in the back of him opens up and this little guy crawls out of the back and he's not attractive. And he's not this and he's not everything and he gets out and gets a drink. And when he comes out of the back, the whole room quiets back down. Everybody goes about their business, he's ignored. He gets up and get to drink. And finally the bartender says, Hey, Johnny wants to get back inside to get back inside. And he jumps back inside the big man and the big man comes to life and the room comes to life. So you know, when I walk in a room I walked in as the big man Hey, how you doing? Hey, all right, you know, good to see it. I'm this. But in reality, I'm not. I'm the handler, the little body inside
Brian Heater 53:16
since this is an audio podcast, I should say you're not. You're not holding a cigar right now. And I wonder how tied the cigar is to the big man. Well,
Jack Grisham 53:27
I can't I can't smoke in the office. Sure.
Brian Heater 53:29
But even even holding a cigar but I feel like that that's almost that's part of the character. Is it? Not? Right?
Jack Grisham 53:35
A little bit? Yeah, exactly. I you know, I do smoke cigars. I smoke. It's funny sometimes. Sometimes, if I'm in the middle of something really working on something. I'll burn a shitload incense in here, and then I'll fire up and take a couple of puffs. Because they can't really smell it if you burn the sage. They think you're in sage in here but yeah, it's part of it is day here I am. Hey, you know, and, and not at the end day, very withdrawal very, very sucked up very small, small. I used to see myself as five, three 113 pounds. And I'm I'm six for 300 but I would see myself as this small figure. Constantly. I remember I had a mentor tell me Look, man, you you're a big man. When you come in you fill the doorway when you walk in. You know, you can't throw that weight around. You have to, you know, be aware of that. That was something I had to be aware of. That I could come in and be overpowering. To and I had to watch out for that. Be quiet and then out Hey, Jennifer Finch from L seven just said something to me. That was pretty interesting. I learned another new character defect of mine. I was sent a reading I was I was supposed to do a reading and I didn't really know All, you know, am I supposed to go backstage? Why not? I'm not sure where to be. I don't know what's going on. And somebody said to me, somebody, somebody said, Well, you were supposed to be backstage. I go, I didn't I you know, I didn't know where it was. I didn't know what's happening. And then that person walked away. And Jennifer Finch said to me, she said, I played dumb too sometimes. And I thought, Oh my God, how many times have I done that? played dumb? I don't know. You know, played the victim, the small victim, the dumb boy they whatever.