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[00:00:01] The way I feel is that I've been making records for quite some time.
[00:00:20] And the one thing that's happened in the last maybe 15 years
[00:00:27] is I've had the opportunity to make records with different people.
[00:00:33] I've been invited as a collaborator, as an arranger, as a co-writer
[00:00:37] and I really do enjoy that process so much more than the actual idea of originating the work entirely yourself.
[00:00:50] And that's possibly because you put pressure on yourself
[00:00:57] and you set a bar and you imagine an audience, or maybe an invisible audience,
[00:01:05] or a small audience, albeit, judging everything you do.
[00:01:10] And it's a really silly way to actually...
[00:01:13] It's a stupid pressure that you put upon yourself
[00:01:17] and it's a silly way to reflect on yourself and on what you do.
[00:01:27] And when you do that with other people, with other collaborators, you don't think about that at all.
[00:01:33] And in fact you do exactly the same thing.
[00:01:36] You contribute, you reach inside yourself, you respond to your internal instinct
[00:01:41] and you contribute, you do exactly the same thing.
[00:01:45] And you do it without any pressure, any tension
[00:01:50] and it's a really enjoyable process.
[00:01:55] So I kind of try to take that pressure off myself
[00:01:59] and I will not commit to another artistic record after this
[00:02:05] but I will commit to lots of collaborations.
[00:02:09] And some of those collaborations may actually be such that I'm the greater part of the collaboration
[00:02:16] and it is almost like an artistic record.
[00:02:19] But you know, I'm 64, I'm not 54, I'm 64.
[00:02:25] I was making records in 1983 when I didn't even know what...
[00:02:35] I was making records before post-modernism
[00:02:45] and I really had crept into the whole process
[00:02:49] when it was closer to the joy of hearing little Stevie Wonder
[00:02:56] than it was to the...
[00:03:02] this idea of what's the next clever moves, so to speak.
[00:03:09] And that's a long time.
[00:03:13] And yeah, I think I feel that I kind of...
[00:03:19] I know it sounds crazy, I don't think I need to make any more records
[00:03:23] but I want to make music.
[00:03:26] Have you felt that before?
[00:03:28] Yeah.
[00:03:29] Or does it always feel like there needs to be another thing?
[00:03:31] I felt that quite recently.
[00:03:34] I make them Radium Calls, I don't know if you heard Radium Calls
[00:03:40] which was the solo rail killer they made in 2019.
[00:03:44] That was really...
[00:03:46] I love doing that and I love doing that because I said,
[00:03:50] right, I'm going to walk away from today
[00:03:52] and I'm going to make a record very much of my own.
[00:03:55] I had the great...
[00:03:57] my god, I had the foresight and joy to actually call Carhall Coughlin
[00:04:02] and say do you want to come on the record and sing with me?
[00:04:06] And thank god I did because I don't know if you know
[00:04:10] but he died a few years later.
[00:04:15] So that was incredible and the little moves I made
[00:04:21] on Radium Calls were basically pushed me into the direction
[00:04:26] to make Hey Panda.
[00:04:28] And at the time, it was before I'd met Ben Garrett from Friars
[00:04:36] who I really...
[00:04:38] this guy is 34, 35, maybe...
[00:04:43] well I started working with him, he was 30
[00:04:47] and he was a...
[00:04:49] my god he was a gift of a young fella to hook up with
[00:04:55] because he basically brought me into a world that I've admired
[00:05:02] but never thought I could participate in
[00:05:06] and he basically brought me in and showed me just some of the ways
[00:05:11] and the handles that one needed to access
[00:05:20] to make a difference kind of music.
[00:05:23] And thankfully I was able to make this record because of that.
[00:05:27] When I asked you if you had experienced it before,
[00:05:29] you were really referring to the last few records
[00:05:33] but have there been other points in your very long career
[00:05:37] in which it's felt like there might not necessarily be another album?
[00:05:41] Sure, I mean before I started I Alarmers and Microdisney finished
[00:05:46] so I was very much the junior partner there.
[00:05:50] There was two of us, Carhall Cochran and myself and Carhall
[00:05:54] we both wrote music, Carhall was the lyricist
[00:05:56] and he was a very...
[00:06:00] he was almost like a literary character, you know?
[00:06:05] And I was this guy who is regarded as the music guy
[00:06:11] in fact Carhall was very much the music guy as I was
[00:06:15] and when that ends and you have to actually
[00:06:19] literally use your own artistic voice and literary your own voice
[00:06:24] that's pretty... that's hard
[00:06:28] there are so many bands that you could point to
[00:06:32] and just say oh yeah, that was the time when that fella stepped out
[00:06:36] you know, this obscure artist
[00:06:44] I'm thinking of like you could go back to
[00:06:48] The Move for instance
[00:06:52] Roy Wood and Jeff Lynn they both stepped out
[00:06:56] and found their thing
[00:06:59] and I suppose the big one would be
[00:07:02] in recent years would be Nirvana and David Groll
[00:07:05] but that is a moment
[00:07:08] and it's a moment when you can just think
[00:07:11] oh this isn't me
[00:07:14] but then that changed
[00:07:17] and the thing about the High Lamas that really really changed
[00:07:20] from the very beginning was really me hooking up with
[00:07:25] Tim Gaine from StereoLab
[00:07:29] and I'm not talking about the sound here
[00:07:33] I'm just talking about the attitude
[00:07:40] the person that you are
[00:07:43] and how you actually go into a studio
[00:07:46] and I've been through the 80s where music making
[00:07:49] had been very very professionalism and produced
[00:07:52] and Tim, even though he had his time in the 80s
[00:07:56] with McCarthy when he created StereoLab
[00:08:00] he created it as a...
[00:08:03] I mean it was a band but it was definitely an art project as well
[00:08:07] and he had some...
[00:08:11] he had some basic ground rules
[00:08:17] that were very very smart and very useful
[00:08:23] and he sort of taught me how to kind of relax
[00:08:27] and loosen up and absolutely don't
[00:08:32] don't walk in to the studio with all your experience
[00:08:38] your production experience
[00:08:40] leave some of it outside and be prepared to sort of loosen up and learn
[00:08:46] so that's why that's how and why the High Lamas
[00:08:50] changed you know from the very first record
[00:08:54] which was Santa Barbara to Gideon Gate
[00:08:56] that's why that change happened
[00:08:58] High Lamas and art projects in some sense to you as well
[00:09:02] I would say probably not
[00:09:05] mainly because of the person I am
[00:09:08] I'm a worker
[00:09:12] and I say that as somebody who's struggled at school
[00:09:17] I left school very early because I didn't realise at the time
[00:09:21] but I had mental health problems and I was dyslexic
[00:09:25] I really struggled
[00:09:28] and I didn't understand what was going on at school
[00:09:30] because I had ideas and I was creative
[00:09:35] but I couldn't kind of...
[00:09:38] I couldn't put it down on paper
[00:09:40] and I was a massive academic failure
[00:09:42] so I just ran away from that
[00:09:45] and I worked in construction sites and car factories
[00:09:48] and so to actually find yourself as a person in music
[00:09:54] that was enough
[00:09:56] the idea of that being artistic
[00:09:59] didn't even occur to me
[00:10:01] it was like that was as foreign to me
[00:10:06] as an avocado was when I first saw an avocado at the age of 22
[00:10:13] I said what the hell is this?
[00:10:15] This is avocado, it tastes really great
[00:10:18] so no I wouldn't have called it an art project
[00:10:21] I called it making another band
[00:10:25] and god I'm lucky to be able to do this
[00:10:30] because it's better than putting my hand in freezing cold water
[00:10:33] at 6 o'clock in the morning
[00:10:35] There's not a ton of value in dwelling on these sorts of things
[00:10:38] but if you had come along 10, 20 years later
[00:10:44] and the education was more in tune to such things
[00:10:50] and teachers were paying closer attention
[00:10:52] whether your experience would have been dramatically different
[00:10:55] Would I have become a musician?
[00:10:58] Possibly, yeah
[00:11:00] Eventually but even just academically
[00:11:02] you're obviously an intelligent person
[00:11:05] It would have been very different
[00:11:07] and I would have probably gone on to study at
[00:11:11] I go to college, go to university
[00:11:13] I would have probably discovered something that I really enjoyed
[00:11:17] It might have been history
[00:11:20] or it might have been architecture
[00:11:22] because I love architecture
[00:11:26] and yeah, I may never have made music
[00:11:29] because I was compelled to make music
[00:11:31] because it was the only thing I could do
[00:11:33] When did that switch flick for you?
[00:11:36] When was it clear that it was something that you could do?
[00:11:40] Well, you've heard this from so many people of my generation
[00:11:45] but punk rock was very, very important
[00:11:48] I don't mean musically
[00:11:50] It wasn't that important musically, I don't think
[00:11:53] but culturally it was hugely important
[00:12:00] Empowerment, totally, yeah
[00:12:02] And we're talking about 1977, 1978, 1979
[00:12:08] that literally I could literally feel the change
[00:12:13] where in 1976 or 77, you know
[00:12:18] kids were listening to
[00:12:20] some smart kids were listening to Neil Young
[00:12:23] or Steely Dan Records
[00:12:25] and the really smart guys were listening to jazz records
[00:12:29] and then you had this other bunch over here
[00:12:31] who were listening to folk, you know,
[00:12:35] Prangsty and Richard Thompson whatever
[00:12:40] but the whole thing was
[00:12:47] everybody was insecure
[00:12:50] because it was all about ability and technique
[00:12:54] and punk literally just allowed you to go into a room
[00:13:03] and not be judged
[00:13:06] and that's what happened
[00:13:10] and it happened for me, you know, like 79
[00:13:15] 1980s, 1979, that's when it started
[00:13:19] and by that time things had moved on from
[00:13:22] the rock and roll part of punk
[00:13:26] there was the rock and roll
[00:13:28] whether it's the Ramones or the pistols
[00:13:31] and then there was the art school
[00:13:35] which was like in the US
[00:13:39] that would have been, you know, David Byrne talking ahead
[00:13:42] and in the UK it would have been
[00:13:44] Gang of Foreign Amicons, you know, and Scruti Palliti
[00:13:46] Yeah, well we were called Post-Punker now
[00:13:48] Yeah, I guess so, yeah
[00:13:50] and it was that moment where
[00:13:54] I just thought, wow this is
[00:13:57] this is something that I want to be part of
[00:14:01] and you go out and you literally find your people
[00:14:05] you literally find them
[00:14:08] and you literally find them on the street
[00:14:10] and you make very quick decisions
[00:14:13] and you're in rooms making music very quickly
[00:14:17] there's no big project planning
[00:14:20] it's very, very instant
[00:14:23] that's the change
[00:14:25] I like the way you phrase it in terms of finding your people
[00:14:28] and it strikes me that in a lot of ways
[00:14:32] for kids growing up now
[00:14:34] subculturally maybe a little bit easier
[00:14:37] with the internet to find out that there are other people
[00:14:40] who like the same things that you do
[00:14:43] and, you know, I guess in some way
[00:14:47] think the same way that you do as well
[00:14:51] and, you know, I wonder if at any point prior to that
[00:14:55] whether things really did feel hopeless
[00:15:00] before you found that group
[00:15:02] Oh yeah, I was personally I felt very hopeless
[00:15:07] and there was a kind of music was very important
[00:15:12] music was huge, music was wonderful
[00:15:15] but we were mere observers
[00:15:19] and, you know, we were shy kids
[00:15:25] our confidence was shot
[00:15:28] and there was an awful lot in the music business
[00:15:31] at that time whether it was like
[00:15:37] Rod Stewart sort of kind of flaunting around London
[00:15:43] or David Geffen getting his
[00:15:48] creating his vision of LA music
[00:15:52] it was these confident people, wasn't it?
[00:15:55] It was these, you know, and the rest of us out there
[00:16:01] we were these, we were very much the observers
[00:16:05] we were very much the audience, you know
[00:16:07] and I don't remember that as being like good times at all
[00:16:13] I do not, I remember it
[00:16:15] probably was for Rod Stewart and David Geffen
[00:16:17] who were fantastic with those guys
[00:16:19] they loved it, they loved it
[00:16:21] and, yeah, I mean, you know, we were fed
[00:16:27] we had jobs and we were
[00:16:30] and we could get the bus and we could, you know
[00:16:33] and Saturday night was Saturday night
[00:16:36] but I don't remember it being like this fantastic time
[00:16:41] and the one thing
[00:16:44] and this coincided with me going back to Ireland
[00:16:48] because I was in the UK living in a car town
[00:16:51] and my parents brought me back to Ireland
[00:16:53] and I was in a Cork city
[00:16:56] which is a very provincial small city
[00:16:59] in the south of Ireland
[00:17:00] and it was incredible
[00:17:02] because there was two things
[00:17:06] there was this, you know
[00:17:08] the punk had reached Cork in this very strange way
[00:17:12] and it was, but the participants were these poets
[00:17:17] they were just amazing
[00:17:18] they were just fantastic people
[00:17:21] and, but also, you know, Ireland was, you know
[00:17:26] it was disassociated with the 20th century
[00:17:33] in the most fantastic way
[00:17:36] I was blessed
[00:17:38] and that's when life really started for me
[00:17:42] just those early years in Cork
[00:17:45] making music and just breathing that air
[00:17:48] Where does Thin Lizzie and Phil Lynett fit in all of this?
[00:17:53] You know, there seems to be a lot of ways in which
[00:17:56] he was a very great songwriter
[00:17:59] a very lyrical songwriter
[00:18:00] and there are ways in which he was kind of caring
[00:18:02] that I think that Irish literary tradition
[00:18:06] Yeah, he's a really interesting guy
[00:18:09] I mean imagine being a very tall mixed race guy in Ireland
[00:18:15] with an Afro and a massive attitude
[00:18:18] incredible really
[00:18:21] the interesting thing about Thin Lizzie was
[00:18:26] because, you know, they were reasonably well known
[00:18:30] in Ireland when they had these early singles
[00:18:33] and they were basically a power trio
[00:18:36] and they weren't, you know, whisking the jar and all that
[00:18:39] that was fine, they were just a novelty
[00:18:42] but then when they made those records
[00:18:48] which were pop rock records
[00:18:50] and very very successful
[00:18:53] and they, you know, they really
[00:19:00] they brought people together
[00:19:02] I mean in the UK, I remember being in the UK
[00:19:05] and seeing them at a show in Hammersmith
[00:19:08] and yeah, the UK audience loved these people
[00:19:12] and remember we're talking about a time when
[00:19:15] Irish people in the UK were like
[00:19:17] not popular because of politics, you know
[00:19:21] and where did he fit in?
[00:19:23] Very interesting, he's a really interesting guy
[00:19:26] I saw a picture of him the other day
[00:19:28] and he had a t-shirt
[00:19:30] and it said more blacks, more dogs, more Irish
[00:19:34] and that's a direct reference to
[00:19:39] if you were Irish in the 60s
[00:19:43] and you went looking for a job
[00:19:45] or you went looking for a place to live
[00:19:47] there would be a sign saying
[00:19:48] no dogs, no Irish and no blacks
[00:19:51] Need not apply
[00:19:52] Yeah, more Irish, more dogs
[00:19:56] I thought that was funny
[00:19:57] Were there any positives as far as the construction experience went?
[00:20:01] Yeah, I didn't think about them now
[00:20:05] then I didn't say oh, I'm in the middle of these positives
[00:20:10] I'm gonna take away the rest of my life
[00:20:12] No, I was terrified
[00:20:14] I was terrified
[00:20:15] Imagine being 15 on a building site
[00:20:17] and you literally had two gangs
[00:20:22] you had the Irish gangs and you had the British gangs
[00:20:25] and the British gangs were
[00:20:27] and they were run by the gangers
[00:20:30] and the gang basically ran this group
[00:20:34] and the Irish guy ran this group
[00:20:36] and I'm not talking about mafioso
[00:20:39] it's they were literally these guys
[00:20:42] that would be a concrete and gang
[00:20:44] and this would be a concrete and gang
[00:20:47] and I was basically looked after by a guy called Martin Kelly
[00:20:56] from Tipperary, the Irish gang
[00:20:59] and he was a very smart guy
[00:21:00] he said to me, I had very ginger hair
[00:21:02] he said to me, ginger you don't belong here
[00:21:05] Tipperary accent was more like ginger
[00:21:09] you don't belong here
[00:21:11] and he realized that I shouldn't have been there
[00:21:15] they were pretty savage places
[00:21:18] 1970s, constructed sites
[00:21:21] they were pretty savage
[00:21:23] Timeline wise, you mentioned 1979
[00:21:27] when a lot of this started clicking for you
[00:21:30] and I think Microdisney officially
[00:21:33] being founded in 1980
[00:21:36] so it sounds like things once you knew
[00:21:38] where you wanted to be
[00:21:41] things started coming together pretty quickly
[00:21:44] that's right, they did
[00:21:46] we Carl and I
[00:21:48] it was like there was no opposition
[00:21:50] there were a couple of bands in Cork
[00:21:55] and they were like
[00:21:58] there were R&B bands basically
[00:22:01] there were Ruin and Blues bands
[00:22:03] like Pub Rock maybe
[00:22:05] yeah, and there was a lot of folk music
[00:22:08] and there were some incredible folk artists
[00:22:11] just incredible people
[00:22:14] and Dublin was full of
[00:22:18] there was a lot going on in Dublin
[00:22:20] and a lot going on in Belfast
[00:22:22] and you two were just beginning to sort of
[00:22:25] happen as a band
[00:22:28] but as I said we didn't have any competition
[00:22:30] we were like, there was one other band
[00:22:32] called Five Good End to Sea who were just incredible
[00:22:35] who are like a beef heart
[00:22:38] but we got on to every bill
[00:22:42] because we were organised
[00:22:44] and we thought of it and we wrote quickly
[00:22:47] and Carl was a magnificent literary
[00:22:51] frontman
[00:22:53] we got on to every bill
[00:22:55] we played with everybody
[00:22:57] anybody who came to Ireland we played with them
[00:22:59] Suzy and the band, She's the Fall
[00:23:02] You Too many times
[00:23:06] Dexys, anybody who came
[00:23:10] Depeche Mode we were the band
[00:23:13] we opened
[00:23:15] and so that was very very very quick
[00:23:19] and in those days it was mad
[00:23:22] very fast punky funky music
[00:23:25] didn't last for very long
[00:23:27] and after about two years
[00:23:29] we basically said right everything has to change
[00:23:32] and we just completely trashed everything
[00:23:34] and just changed and became this kind of melodic
[00:23:38] strange melodic duo
[00:23:40] What happened ultimately with the band?
[00:23:42] With Micro Disney
[00:23:44] at the end of 1989
[00:23:47] we ran the course
[00:23:50] we made two or three records with Virgin
[00:23:55] we made one record with Rough Trade
[00:23:58] that's a great run for a decade
[00:24:02] yeah we just kept making records
[00:24:06] made the record at Rough Trade
[00:24:09] which got Virgin wanting to sign us
[00:24:15] and we didn't stay with Rough Trade
[00:24:17] basically because we couldn't afford to
[00:24:19] because they couldn't have any money
[00:24:22] but we had very good people at Virgin
[00:24:24] and we made a record with Lenny Kay
[00:24:29] which was an amazing thing to do
[00:24:31] and then we made the last album
[00:24:35] and we just realised that as people
[00:24:39] we had run the course for that moment
[00:24:43] and we were about to start to make a record
[00:24:46] with Don Was
[00:24:50] that would have been amazing
[00:24:52] For younger people
[00:24:54] can't really overstate what a big deal that would have been
[00:24:57] That would have been incredible
[00:24:59] and yeah we just realised that
[00:25:02] we had grown up together
[00:25:05] Carl and I had grown up together
[00:25:07] and we realised artistically
[00:25:10] we didn't have anything to share
[00:25:12] and if we couldn't share it
[00:25:14] it wasn't worth doing it
[00:25:15] so we both decided to just stop it at that point
[00:25:19] You alluded a little bit to some of the
[00:25:22] I think the way you put it was mental health problems
[00:25:26] that really impeded your academic career
[00:25:33] and to a certain extent addressed
[00:25:38] indirectly through this creative process
[00:25:41] and really figuring out what you wanted to do with your life
[00:25:44] but actually in terms of addressing them head on
[00:25:47] was that something that had to come later?
[00:25:50] Yeah I didn't have a clue what was going on
[00:25:52] but I had this crippling OCD
[00:25:54] which basically kind of
[00:25:57] I was diagnosed with OCD during the pandemic actually
[00:26:00] There you go
[00:26:01] and did things make sense to you after that?
[00:26:04] Once you got that
[00:26:06] It's so funny
[00:26:08] I don't believe in astrology at all
[00:26:14] more power to people who do
[00:26:16] no issue at all with it
[00:26:18] but I compare it to
[00:26:22] sitting down and reading the most accurate
[00:26:26] horoscope of your entire life
[00:26:28] or suddenly everything starts to make sense
[00:26:31] because you have this diagnosis
[00:26:33] Well, you might have an insight
[00:26:37] I think OCD afflicts most people to some extent
[00:26:41] and you know most people have
[00:26:48] I guess superstitions
[00:26:50] but when OCD literally
[00:26:54] prevents you from leaving the house
[00:26:57] or sends you on a terrifying binge
[00:27:06] to close down really, really weird thoughts
[00:27:11] then it's very dangerous
[00:27:14] It's an interesting point and something that I didn't realize
[00:27:16] until I went through
[00:27:17] like a lot of people I was very hesitant to
[00:27:21] deal with a lot of these things
[00:27:23] and the pandemic really sort of
[00:27:26] didn't give me a lot of choice
[00:27:27] it pushed me over the edge
[00:27:29] but something that was surprising to me in terms of
[00:27:34] psychiatry and diagnosis is
[00:27:37] that at least with OCD
[00:27:40] the way that they determine the severity
[00:27:44] is how much it impacts your ability to lead
[00:27:48] a normal life
[00:27:50] Yeah, you get the sheets
[00:27:55] and you check the boxes
[00:27:58] and then you know
[00:28:01] and you answer the questions
[00:28:04] more than one day
[00:28:06] more than two days
[00:28:08] more than one hour a day
[00:28:10] and whatever
[00:28:12] and I realized that that's what was happening to me at school
[00:28:16] so I went into exams
[00:28:18] and the anxiety of an exam
[00:28:23] would crank the OCD
[00:28:25] it would just punch you
[00:28:27] and it would just shut you down
[00:28:29] and you just basically stare at a page
[00:28:32] and just walked out
[00:28:34] leaving an empty page out of an example
[00:28:37] Yeah, it's just mad, mad stuff
[00:28:41] Obviously it manifests itself in different ways
[00:28:44] both for different people
[00:28:45] but also, you know, within the same people
[00:28:48] I find myself, you know, that it manifests itself
[00:28:51] in all sorts of different ways
[00:28:53] and we...
[00:28:55] and there's a lot of what I've done
[00:28:57] and continue to do
[00:28:59] that I would
[00:29:01] chalk up to perfectionism
[00:29:03] as being one of the things that hampers my ability
[00:29:06] to actually...to finish something
[00:29:10] and that very much is OCD
[00:29:14] and it's something that
[00:29:16] in art specifically, it's something that like
[00:29:18] yeah, can make some really great stuff
[00:29:20] but also can completely
[00:29:23] shut the process down
[00:29:25] Yeah, and if it shuts down
[00:29:27] a part of your life
[00:29:30] namely that part, the social part of your life
[00:29:33] or the life where you are
[00:29:35] a collaborative member, a human being
[00:29:39] then it's not your friend
[00:29:43] I wonder if that's something that
[00:29:46] collaboration gave you
[00:29:48] early on, right?
[00:29:50] It's a double-edged sword in terms of having this
[00:29:53] and collaborating with somebody
[00:29:55] in that, you know, difficult from the standpoint
[00:29:58] that sometimes you have this very specific vision
[00:30:01] and you want things to be that way
[00:30:03] and it's going to be difficult to compromise
[00:30:06] but at the same time that person is there
[00:30:08] to really, to shake you out of...
[00:30:11] Yeah, without a doubt
[00:30:13] I would say that
[00:30:15] with regards to sort of mental health
[00:30:18] certainly, I loved being in the room
[00:30:21] with other people
[00:30:23] and I loved
[00:30:25] the process of collaboration
[00:30:27] because it was...
[00:30:29] it was...
[00:30:31] it was a refuge, it was absolutely a refuge
[00:30:35] and yeah, I mean...
[00:30:38] yeah, collaboration is...
[00:30:40] it's a strange one because
[00:30:42] a lot of people who may have worked with me
[00:30:45] would say, you are not a collaborator
[00:30:48] they've said worse things than that
[00:30:51] he said, I can't...
[00:30:53] you do not collaborate
[00:30:55] Yeah, yeah
[00:30:57] That's a very nice way of saying other things
[00:30:59] Yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:31:01] but God, I love it when...
[00:31:05] you know, I do have those people with me
[00:31:07] because it's a refuge
[00:31:10] but actually
[00:31:12] in my older years
[00:31:14] I can work
[00:31:18] as a solitary maker now
[00:31:21] basically because I think I'm better
[00:31:23] and I'm through that very, that horribleness
[00:31:26] and yeah, I can actually
[00:31:30] absolutely double down and kind of...
[00:31:34] I wouldn't say try to look for a perfectionism
[00:31:38] I would say
[00:31:41] get into...
[00:31:44] allow oneself to go down the rabbit hole
[00:31:47] for a little bit
[00:31:49] and just realise that
[00:31:51] wow, there's something extraordinary
[00:31:53] could be made here
[00:31:55] and thankfully told me that if you're working on an idea
[00:31:58] and you're 10 minutes into that idea
[00:32:01] and you haven't committed it
[00:32:03] then you should junk the idea
[00:32:05] you should move away from it
[00:32:07] and he's just got this lovely idea
[00:32:09] that within that 10 minutes
[00:32:11] the excitement
[00:32:13] it's like the golden moment
[00:32:15] it's when it's glowing
[00:32:17] well, if you can actually get it down
[00:32:19] commit it to tape while it's in that moment
[00:32:22] you've got something very, very special
[00:32:24] there's an extreme there
[00:32:28] but I think to a certain extent
[00:32:31] like maybe if you're working on a base sound
[00:32:35] or a base riff or something like that
[00:32:37] and you think you have it
[00:32:40] I think he's like
[00:32:42] put it down in its imperfection
[00:32:45] you can go back to it
[00:32:47] and just clean it up
[00:32:48] but put it down while it's imperfect
[00:32:51] and then move on and then go back to it
[00:32:53] there's a lot of value
[00:32:55] a lot of very underrated value
[00:32:57] in leaving something
[00:32:59] and coming back to it with fresh eyes as well
[00:33:01] which this affords you
[00:33:03] absolutely, I mean
[00:33:05] Panda was
[00:33:09] those ideas were
[00:33:13] in a dormant state for a while
[00:33:15] and I kind of
[00:33:18] went back to it
[00:33:20] with very, very fresh ideas
[00:33:23] and very fresh eyes
[00:33:26] and a little bit like you
[00:33:29] you alluded to this idea that your
[00:33:32] commitment to perfection
[00:33:34] prevented you from finishing work
[00:33:36] you know
[00:33:39] I understand that
[00:33:42] and I think I was able to
[00:33:46] put the distance between those ideas
[00:33:49] and when I came back
[00:33:52] I listened to those ideas
[00:33:54] and it's weird, you could listen to them
[00:33:57] as a fan and say
[00:34:00] this is great
[00:34:02] what the hell
[00:34:04] this is great
[00:34:06] there isn't much to do here
[00:34:08] you don't have to do that much here
[00:34:10] it's nearly done
[00:34:12] whereas
[00:34:14] in the previous
[00:34:17] iteration of your relationship with that music
[00:34:20] you were just
[00:34:24] you had just been sucked into the
[00:34:27] negativity of
[00:34:30] I cannot achieve the perfection
[00:34:33] go away and come back as a fan
[00:34:36] and then see how you feel about it
[00:34:38] when you say panda do you mean the song
[00:34:40] or the entire album?
[00:34:42] the entire album, the entire record
[00:34:44] what were some of those ideas?
[00:34:46] Fall off the mountain
[00:34:48] was
[00:34:51] that whole B section where it
[00:34:53] switches up
[00:34:55] into this kind of cod
[00:34:57] cooling the gang
[00:34:59] it starts off with this
[00:35:01] sort of very very
[00:35:08] electro-rurality
[00:35:10] I'd call it
[00:35:12] and then it switches up to this
[00:35:14] silly cabaret dance music
[00:35:17] that whole
[00:35:19] I had
[00:35:21] that B section was never there
[00:35:23] it was just like
[00:35:25] it was something much cleverer
[00:35:27] and much more
[00:35:29] yes, now this is going to show them
[00:35:32] and then I realised that
[00:35:35] that continuing down that
[00:35:37] was
[00:35:39] the first part
[00:35:41] the rural part
[00:35:43] as I call it
[00:35:45] the bubolic part
[00:35:47] that
[00:35:49] actually
[00:35:51] needed to be
[00:35:53] contrasted against
[00:35:55] this very
[00:35:57] silly idea
[00:35:59] and basically
[00:36:01] there was comedy in it
[00:36:03] and I loved the fact that there was comedy in it
[00:36:05] the whole song is about sheep
[00:36:07] in Yorkshire
[00:36:09] and it's basically about sheep
[00:36:11] observing the walkers
[00:36:13] and so you've got the walkers
[00:36:15] and so maybe in your case
[00:36:17] it would be going up to the Catskills
[00:36:19] and you'd think the people
[00:36:21] who's going up to the Catskills
[00:36:23] is probably quite educated
[00:36:25] people
[00:36:27] who are
[00:36:29] people with means
[00:36:31] and also
[00:36:33] readers
[00:36:35] and educated
[00:36:37] and to live a good life
[00:36:39] and
[00:36:41] so up in the Yorkshire Dales
[00:36:43] it's geography teachers
[00:36:45] and all sorts of things
[00:36:47] and the sheep
[00:36:49] are looking at these people
[00:36:51] and just saying you don't belong here
[00:36:53] look at you, you think you're dressed
[00:36:55] you know look at me
[00:36:57] I can survive up here
[00:36:59] in the winter, in the snow
[00:37:01] I'm fine, I'm made for this
[00:37:03] you're not made for this, look at your shoes
[00:37:06] and they're laughing at these
[00:37:08] people
[00:37:10] and sort of thinking that
[00:37:12] well I'm a better person
[00:37:14] because I've embraced the elements
[00:37:16] and I own the elements
[00:37:18] and the sheep
[00:37:20] are saying you don't know anything
[00:37:22] you think you do, we own it
[00:37:24] that's what the song is about
[00:37:26] and so when it switches up
[00:37:28] you know
[00:37:30] it's that living my daughter
[00:37:32] doing that
[00:37:34] very silly
[00:37:36] silly kind of
[00:37:38] posh rap
[00:37:40] so to speak
[00:37:42] you know obviously
[00:37:44] the album's not out yet so I don't know if anybody else
[00:37:46] has
[00:37:48] laid this to you in a similar way
[00:37:50] but I'm obviously
[00:37:52] familiar with your work
[00:37:54] in the High Alarm specifically
[00:37:56] and I put the album
[00:37:58] on this morning and I put it on prior to
[00:38:00] actually reading
[00:38:02] the press release or anything else around it
[00:38:04] and I had a moment where
[00:38:06] about three or four songs in
[00:38:08] I thought that
[00:38:10] I listened to music on Apple Music
[00:38:12] and I thought that it had
[00:38:14] shuffled to a different
[00:38:16] artist
[00:38:18] and it wasn't until
[00:38:20] I read that press release
[00:38:22] and realized what a big influence
[00:38:24] Jay Dilla had been
[00:38:26] that it started really making sense to me
[00:38:28] so over the last
[00:38:30] you know
[00:38:32] 20 years
[00:38:36] I kind of
[00:38:38] I was
[00:38:40] very admiring
[00:38:42] of so many artists
[00:38:46] and
[00:38:50] Jay Dilla was obviously
[00:38:54] introduced to me through
[00:38:56] I don't know Dr Dre
[00:38:58] and Ferrell and people like that
[00:39:00] every hip hop record for about a 10 year
[00:39:02] period it seemed like
[00:39:04] yeah
[00:39:06] but they admired this guy
[00:39:08] and I
[00:39:10] and I just
[00:39:12] he basically sort of introduced this idea
[00:39:14] of
[00:39:16] first of all of the sweet
[00:39:18] just introducing the sweet
[00:39:20] a sweet spot of
[00:39:22] harmony
[00:39:24] a sweet spot of observation
[00:39:26] matching that
[00:39:28] with the idea
[00:39:30] of pushing
[00:39:32] beats off the grid
[00:39:34] you know
[00:39:36] and it was just like
[00:39:38] what an incredible
[00:39:40] impact that I had on so many people
[00:39:44] and
[00:39:46] I was
[00:39:48] and that basically
[00:39:50] pushed me into
[00:39:52] listening to
[00:39:54] R&B which then
[00:39:56] but I didn't take it
[00:39:58] as seriously as I shouldn't
[00:40:00] only after like
[00:40:02] my kids
[00:40:04] listening to
[00:40:06] stuff and I just walk in the room and I say
[00:40:08] what is this?
[00:40:10] what is this? and it would like oh this is
[00:40:12] Solange Dad
[00:40:14] okay wow
[00:40:16] this is incredible who's she collaborating with
[00:40:18] a guy called John Carroll Kirby
[00:40:20] oh
[00:40:22] and what's this
[00:40:24] and I didn't even know who Tyler was
[00:40:26] you know
[00:40:28] I made
[00:40:33] a teller who me way
[00:40:35] and then I was getting calls
[00:40:37] from people saying
[00:40:39] you know
[00:40:41] this guy called Tyler the creator
[00:40:43] he loves that song
[00:40:45] he wrote about Dorothy Ashby
[00:40:47] and I went wow who is this guy
[00:40:49] and it was only later
[00:40:51] then people were
[00:40:53] coming in and saying
[00:40:55] what the fuck don't you know who this guy is
[00:40:57] and I said no I don't
[00:40:59] but because I was
[00:41:01] divorced from
[00:41:03] that
[00:41:05] so long
[00:41:07] from
[00:41:09] the early 20s the early 20s
[00:41:11] the early noughties
[00:41:13] I was listening to too many
[00:41:15] records by Basil Kershyn
[00:41:19] and then I just
[00:41:21] started saying what is who is this
[00:41:23] what is this and then
[00:41:25] wow
[00:41:27] like the
[00:41:29] then
[00:41:33] you know people like Kajibone
[00:41:35] started making records
[00:41:37] and I was
[00:41:39] no name
[00:41:41] and then the
[00:41:43] that whole
[00:41:45] group of guys from Chicago
[00:41:47] Shmino and Saber and
[00:41:49] they're what they call
[00:41:51] themselves pivot
[00:41:53] and it was just like
[00:41:55] oh my god this is
[00:41:57] this
[00:41:59] and I realised that there was something very important happening
[00:42:01] and what it was
[00:42:03] was a generation
[00:42:05] of musicians
[00:42:07] had
[00:42:09] kind of
[00:42:11] gone beyond
[00:42:13] this strange place that I was
[00:42:15] when we were
[00:42:17] my cohorts were
[00:42:19] political in our music
[00:42:21] I don't mean large
[00:42:23] politics, I mean small politics
[00:42:25] we were tribal
[00:42:27] and I just felt that
[00:42:29] there was a group of people making music
[00:42:31] that said
[00:42:33] I'm going to make this music
[00:42:35] which over here it's kind of loose
[00:42:37] indie and over here it's very much
[00:42:39] you know R&B
[00:42:41] and it's over here it's
[00:42:43] sliced down and over here it's
[00:42:45] I don't know
[00:42:47] what it felt like to the Smiths
[00:42:49] but
[00:42:51] there's also
[00:42:53] very much part of
[00:42:55] my current
[00:42:59] of me
[00:43:01] and there was
[00:43:03] I believe there were people
[00:43:05] making the right choices
[00:43:07] and there were people
[00:43:09] owning their
[00:43:11] owning the music business
[00:43:13] in a weird way right at the time
[00:43:15] when the music business was actually sort of
[00:43:17] falling apart
[00:43:19] and it was becoming nobody knew who owned it
[00:43:21] because the platforms
[00:43:23] were being set up and
[00:43:25] you know but in a weird way
[00:43:27] creatively
[00:43:29] they were owning it when Steve Lacey said
[00:43:31] I'm going to make a record on an iPhone
[00:43:33] that's very much creatively
[00:43:35] owning the
[00:43:37] means and the ways
[00:43:39] so yeah that was
[00:43:41] that was incredible for me
[00:43:43] it's funny that you mentioned
[00:43:45] Sly Stone I've been reading
[00:43:47] I recently started reading his memoir
[00:43:49] I don't know if you've had a chance to read that yet
[00:43:51] I haven't but I look forward to it
[00:43:53] yeah I you know
[00:43:55] I'm from San Francisco originally
[00:43:57] so he's a Bay Area guy
[00:43:59] so like you know he's
[00:44:01] very important and I
[00:44:03] it's funny when
[00:44:05] you talk about this idea
[00:44:07] of having been really regimented in
[00:44:09] your approach to music
[00:44:11] because
[00:44:13] this is very clear from his music
[00:44:15] but it's even more clear hearing
[00:44:17] him
[00:44:19] talk or I guess write about it that
[00:44:23] at the time it seemed like it was really
[00:44:25] important for them to
[00:44:27] not be regimented
[00:44:29] that you know that even back then
[00:44:31] and in that he came up
[00:44:33] through the 50s and the early 60s
[00:44:35] and he was producing the great society
[00:44:37] so he
[00:44:39] he's talking about producing great slick
[00:44:41] before she was you know really
[00:44:43] really great slick and it
[00:44:45] it seems like in a lot of ways
[00:44:47] that a lot of these sort of
[00:44:49] arbitrary distinctions
[00:44:51] that we put on ourselves
[00:44:53] are entirely self
[00:44:55] imposed and
[00:44:57] a lot of them came
[00:44:59] in some ways perhaps
[00:45:01] after I think a lot about this from the context
[00:45:03] of you know I'm
[00:45:05] of an age that I
[00:45:07] when I grew up and I was listening to
[00:45:09] you know music to punk
[00:45:11] specifically
[00:45:13] this idea selling out was very important
[00:45:15] it was very important in the 90s
[00:45:17] that was your political moment yeah yeah
[00:45:19] and it's gone now and it's something
[00:45:21] that I think that doesn't even occur
[00:45:23] to younger artists so
[00:45:25] there's a lot of
[00:45:27] artifice in some of these
[00:45:29] arbitrary
[00:45:31] categories that we put ourselves
[00:45:33] into it's really interesting
[00:45:35] to say that because yeah I mean
[00:45:37] so in your time you would have had
[00:45:39] I don't know Fugazi and the Minutemen
[00:45:41] and whatever that whole
[00:45:43] and those guys
[00:45:45] actually literally had
[00:45:47] manifestos didn't they
[00:45:49] and the M. McKay was very
[00:45:51] yeah
[00:45:53] and so
[00:45:55] today these kids
[00:45:57] they are political because they're
[00:45:59] basically out
[00:46:01] they're out talking about
[00:46:03] you know
[00:46:05] there's a lot of shit going on
[00:46:07] in the world and they are referring to it
[00:46:09] they don't have a choice you can't
[00:46:11] not be there's the Howard
[00:46:13] the way Howard's input it is you can't be neutral
[00:46:15] on a moving train no absolutely
[00:46:17] but none of that
[00:46:19] is anything to do with
[00:46:21] the Remy Fosaletti door
[00:46:23] and where the beat falls
[00:46:25] because
[00:46:27] it could be
[00:46:29] you know
[00:46:31] Thundercat or Twigs or even Taylor Swift
[00:46:33] and
[00:46:35] they are politically
[00:46:37] very very
[00:46:39] they're basically
[00:46:41] it could be anybody
[00:46:43] it could be you know Thundercat
[00:46:45] or Twigs
[00:46:47] am I freezing again
[00:46:49] am I freezing again
[00:46:51] am I good
[00:46:53] the video is the audio is fine
[00:46:55] I'm gonna turn off my video camera
[00:46:57] and you could
[00:46:59] turn yours off so we don't need the video
[00:47:01] no no no yeah there we go
[00:47:03] yeah it's better yeah okay that's better
[00:47:05] definitely okay now yeah
[00:47:07] yeah so yeah it's any of these people
[00:47:09] whether it's undercat or twigs
[00:47:11] or Taylor Swift you know
[00:47:13] huge difference between them
[00:47:15] but they're basically
[00:47:17] they're on this politically
[00:47:19] they talk about real politics
[00:47:21] and I think the politics
[00:47:23] that we are certainly as a kid
[00:47:25] in
[00:47:27] you know we were making judgments
[00:47:29] about people because of
[00:47:31] they weren't part of the tribe so to speak
[00:47:33] so
[00:47:35] yeah they're making musical
[00:47:37] decisions which are their
[00:47:39] decisions and only their musical decisions
[00:47:41] but politically they're a student
[00:47:43] and
[00:47:45] and the politics is real
[00:47:47] it's not pretend it's absolutely
[00:47:49] real it's so real that
[00:47:51] you know some idiot's gonna
[00:47:53] drive a car into your
[00:47:55] friend and kill them you know
[00:47:57] in a lot of ways though you know you were very much pushing
[00:47:59] yourself outside of your
[00:48:01] out of your comfort zone and I think
[00:48:03] in this specific instance
[00:48:05] you know if you're talking about
[00:48:07] having this
[00:48:09] awakening almost through
[00:48:11] a odd future through a trailer to Crater
[00:48:13] yeah a lot of people
[00:48:15] your age or even younger you know even
[00:48:17] people in their 40s I think
[00:48:19] 30s would be
[00:48:21] hesitant to
[00:48:23] move so dramatically
[00:48:25] in such a contemporary direction
[00:48:27] well it's it was
[00:48:29] quite I found an affront
[00:48:31] really that people of my age
[00:48:33] or my cohort
[00:48:35] would literally
[00:48:37] not share
[00:48:39] any enthusiasm for
[00:48:41] for
[00:48:43] exploring
[00:48:45] and they would and there's this
[00:48:47] ridiculous thing and it's my generation
[00:48:49] and they believe they said look
[00:48:51] we live we were we went through punk
[00:48:53] yeah we had punk
[00:48:55] we had prints we had blah blah blah
[00:48:57] everything else is just
[00:48:59] a new iteration of the great
[00:49:01] stuff that already happened so there's no point
[00:49:03] listening to how many times have you met
[00:49:05] people who have that attitude
[00:49:07] you know it was all it's all been said and done
[00:49:09] says no point and
[00:49:11] and they're almost proud
[00:49:13] about because yeah I've got you know my grandkids
[00:49:15] they love Hendrix you know
[00:49:17] which proves the point you know my grandkids
[00:49:19] this is to Hendrix so it proves the point
[00:49:21] it's it's so
[00:49:23] it's it's it's
[00:49:25] it's almost embarrassing
[00:49:27] it's almost embarrassing
[00:49:29] and I
[00:49:31] look
[00:49:33] I can't I can't tell you how
[00:49:35] wonderful it is to be invited into a room
[00:49:37] with
[00:49:39] you know Archie King cruel
[00:49:41] you know and to do strings
[00:49:43] you know it's just incredible it's just wonderful
[00:49:45] but I think
[00:49:47] Will Oldham was a big part of this
[00:49:49] record it sounds like absolutely yeah
[00:49:51] what happened with Will and I
[00:49:53] were we would
[00:49:55] talk into each other a little bit about gospel music
[00:49:59] and we both
[00:50:01] decided that
[00:50:03] you know wide way in our men go to
[00:50:05] clubs they should be going to churches
[00:50:07] because that's where
[00:50:09] there's some really interesting music happening
[00:50:11] and
[00:50:13] we said
[00:50:15] we should try to write together
[00:50:17] and obviously we go back a long way
[00:50:19] to the palace hope
[00:50:21] you know because obviously you know that record
[00:50:25] and
[00:50:27] so I just said yes end over
[00:50:29] set of lyrics and I'll
[00:50:31] I'll try to do something
[00:50:33] with a gospel
[00:50:35] push
[00:50:37] you know let's try
[00:50:39] to expand on this this this shared
[00:50:41] admiration
[00:50:43] we have and
[00:50:45] so yeah and those
[00:50:47] and I'm telling you when you get a lyric
[00:50:49] like
[00:50:51] the Hungriest Man
[00:50:53] you know it's
[00:50:55] it's
[00:50:57] incredible it's like getting a lyric from Johnny Cash or something
[00:50:59] it's just amazing
[00:51:01] and
[00:51:03] I've
[00:51:05] you know I really enjoyed
[00:51:07] that process of
[00:51:09] because when you get a lyric
[00:51:11] normally when you write a lyric
[00:51:13] you have got
[00:51:15] some kind of
[00:51:17] geography of how the
[00:51:19] words will flow
[00:51:21] you know there's a you know there's
[00:51:23] the side of the mountain there's the top of the mountain
[00:51:25] and there's the other side and you've got some kind of
[00:51:27] and this stops and starts
[00:51:29] but you know I was given these lyrics
[00:51:31] and I was given
[00:51:33] the choice to just completely
[00:51:35] create that
[00:51:37] geography the angulation
[00:51:39] which I chose to do
[00:51:41] driven by this kind of
[00:51:43] gospely piano and then just basically
[00:51:45] just pumps in all of this
[00:51:47] contemporary stuff
[00:51:49] and
[00:51:51] I tuned my voice
[00:51:53] and I sent it to Willa Wilson
[00:51:55] how come my voice isn't tuned
[00:51:57] I said okay I'll tune your voice
[00:51:59] so he said I've been waiting for
[00:52:01] somebody to do that for years
[00:52:03] we started the conversation by discussing
[00:52:05] again this
[00:52:07] this quote from the press release
[00:52:09] about
[00:52:11] having one more artistic record
[00:52:13] left in you and whether or not
[00:52:15] this was that record
[00:52:17] but to me
[00:52:19] listening to
[00:52:21] you discuss this as we're
[00:52:23] winding up the conversation you sound so
[00:52:25] excited about music right
[00:52:27] now that it seems like it would be
[00:52:29] silly
[00:52:31] to let that go to waste
[00:52:33] yeah but you know I can work
[00:52:35] with other people you know I can be
[00:52:37] um
[00:52:39] and as I said before
[00:52:41] when you're in that process
[00:52:43] when you're in the room with somebody else
[00:52:45] and you're just finishing a job
[00:52:47] you might do the greatest
[00:52:49] your best work
[00:52:51] in that situation and I'm quite happy
[00:52:53] for that to be the case
[00:52:55] um
[00:52:57] and um
[00:52:59] you know I mean I'm
[00:53:01] this yeah I am excited
[00:53:03] we were you know
[00:53:05] flicking through things I came across
[00:53:07] this guy bare the other day
[00:53:09] BAIRD
[00:53:11] just incredible and it's just like
[00:53:13] this stuff is this
[00:53:15] track called
[00:53:17] something uh
[00:53:19] leave it on the skin or it's basically
[00:53:21] a track about falling off your bike
[00:53:23] or falling off you know just
[00:53:25] riding your bike in the neighborhood
[00:53:27] of falling a lot and it's
[00:53:29] just skin on the ground it's incredible
[00:53:31] and I just thought no other generation
[00:53:33] could make that tune
[00:53:35] it's this generation that can make that tune
[00:53:37] and the other thing I say to my cohorts
[00:53:39] is stop talking about
[00:53:41] well was it
[00:53:43] late 70s to the early 70s or was it late
[00:53:45] 60s stop talking about that
[00:53:47] because it just might be
[00:53:49] the golden age just might be now and if you
[00:53:51] keep talking about
[00:53:53] what went before you might miss the golden age
[00:53:55] yeah
[00:53:57] I really believe that
[00:54:02] I