Episode 647: Mary Timony

[00:00:00] It was interesting. It was a lot. It was a lot. It was very intense, I guess. I mean,

[00:00:21] for a lot of reasons, I would say, you know, like a few other people I've talked to, there

[00:00:29] are moments of like total relief of not having to like do anything and go anywhere and being able

[00:00:36] to make bread and going by rides and all that stuff. But it was also really lonely and isolating,

[00:00:43] obviously for everybody. I actually had a really crazy experience during the pandemic or for me

[00:00:54] anyway, a lot of crap was going on in my life. So in a weird way, like the fact that it happened

[00:01:00] during the pandemic actually allowed me to deal with it all because I was my both of my parents got

[00:01:07] sick. So I was basically caretaking them and so I was really in a vortex of caretaking my family

[00:01:17] during the entire pandemic. So yeah, so that's what I was doing. Weirdly, it just lined up perfectly

[00:01:25] with the pandemic. Both my dad and my mom got sick and I was their primary caregiver. So yeah,

[00:01:34] so it was a wild weird time.

[00:01:37] Not entirely dissimilar for myself. I have I live in Queens and so Queen like April, March 2020 was

[00:01:48] like the this was the epicenter of the entire thing. And I got bells palsy and my rabbit died.

[00:01:56] And it's just that I've noticed like within like weeks of each other. And I just this

[00:02:03] thing that I noticed that like, when I go through something, it's never one thing. And I don't know.

[00:02:09] I don't know if it's a universe or what but this stuff always just compounds for some reason.

[00:02:14] It's really intense. I don't know. Yeah, it's me too. I don't know. I mean,

[00:02:23] why I don't know why that is. But well, there's a reason why when it rains,

[00:02:28] it pours as a saying because it actually happened. I don't know. Why does that happen? I

[00:02:32] don't know. But yet that was my pandemic. It was just like, it was like a crazy, it was great. I had

[00:02:38] a crazy sequence of just like stuff like in a weird way. I'm like really glad it all happened at

[00:02:46] the same time because it was so chaotic that it was like, All right, like bringing on bring this

[00:02:52] shit on. Okay, so here's what happened. And well, of course, we also had Trump. So you know,

[00:02:59] like, that was like made everyone's brain just like, like in pain. Yeah.

[00:03:07] It's a sting of like, Oh yeah, things were not good before the pandemic. And you forget about that.

[00:03:12] Yeah. That's true. Well, yeah, he had only been in there for a little while, right? No, wait,

[00:03:21] how long have you been present? Oh, no, sorry.

[00:03:22] He would have been like three three and a half years ago.

[00:03:24] Three years? Okay, so it's all a mess. So yeah, I guess we were dealing with that and then the

[00:03:29] pandemic happened. That's right. I guess maybe my parents, okay, so it's for me, I don't know,

[00:03:34] it's like a black hole because I was dealing with my parents this whole time and then the

[00:03:38] pandemic happened. Okay, so anyway, it's okay. But um,

[00:03:46] well, lots of weird stuff, what happened to me, I went, I went to Thailand and I got

[00:03:51] home and I was like sick mysteriously sick. And I didn't figure out what it was. And then it turned

[00:03:56] out, I had this like, well, for, and I was sick for months just like not, not terribly sick, but I

[00:04:02] was just in pain. Um, like, and then it turns out like, this is so random. And I don't know

[00:04:08] what I'm telling you, but it turns out I went to the doctor and she was like, they finally

[00:04:14] figured out I had this like weird, um, a lot of parasite but bacterial infection from Thailand.

[00:04:22] But, um, but anyway, she was like, don't look it up on the internet, whatever you do. And so

[00:04:28] because it has the same name as the black plague,

[00:04:31] Wait, it's bubonic?

[00:04:33] Yeah, but it's not, it's just the similar bacteria is not the same one. But

[00:04:38] I thought that was pretty funny. I was really proud that I had the bubonic plague.

[00:04:43] I didn't, but it was, it's

[00:04:45] But you tell everybody that?

[00:04:47] Well at the time I was like, this is pretty cool. Yeah, I was pretty proud. But, um, but anyway,

[00:04:53] and then, um, so what happened then, um, during that whole period, my partner of 12 years and I

[00:05:01] broke up. So I lost a long-term relationship and then my dad got cancer and then had an

[00:05:08] operation and then got dementia like really fast from the operation. So it was like,

[00:05:15] that was really hard. And, um,

[00:05:18] Is that a thing that I've never heard of?

[00:05:19] It does happen if you're, if you're, you know, he was 87. So it's like what

[00:05:24] You're, um, predisposed to it and that kind of just like exacerbates it or accelerates it.

[00:05:29] Maybe I think so. Yeah. That's what they said. Um, so that was really intense. And, um,

[00:05:36] um, and then my mom's health was declining too. And she got cancer and, um, so I was caretaking

[00:05:45] both of them and it was, um, it was really, really challenging and stressful, um, because

[00:05:53] it was all on me. Um, and because it's hard to get old and

[00:06:01] And it's hard to watch people get old.

[00:06:02] It's hard to watch people get old and as hard, yeah. And it's, and, and just

[00:06:09] It's crazy to like, you know, we're all going to lose our

[00:06:14] freedom at some point from illness, from, you know, our physical bodies declining.

[00:06:20] That's just like really hard. So, you know, if we're lucky, if we're lucky. Yeah.

[00:06:25] Yeah. It's like if we're lucky, we're probably going to go through a period of

[00:06:28] a lot of suffering at some point. I get it's true. It's so bleak, but it's true. And none

[00:06:36] of us want to think about it. But anyway, so yeah, I was basically just caretaking them

[00:06:41] and then the pandemic happened and it was a lot at the same time. But then I, the good

[00:06:46] thing that happened was I worked on a record. So now my record's coming out. So that was my

[00:06:54] the thing that I did that made me happy during that time. Is there a way in which obviously

[00:07:03] there's a very real way in which you were using this new record to process things, but

[00:07:10] was it also a distraction? Well, the reason why it wasn't was because the pandemic was

[00:07:15] happening and I had no time frame or no pressure. It was just something I was doing

[00:07:25] over a few years of in my free time, you know what I mean? And I didn't know what I was going to do

[00:07:31] with it. I just was, well, I had more time because I got my parents help, you know, so I

[00:07:41] wasn't there all the time at their house. And because I wasn't doing anything else,

[00:07:47] besides taking care of my parents and working on my record, that's all I did. You know, like,

[00:07:53] I mean, yeah, so it wasn't, it wasn't if it was a distraction, I wouldn't have been doing it

[00:08:01] because I was like very hyper focused on taking care of them. Yeah, so I didn't have to go anywhere.

[00:08:13] I just was in my basement and their house, which is right down the street. So if I had been touring,

[00:08:18] yeah, I couldn't have done that. So I really lucked out in a weird way that the pandemic

[00:08:24] happened because I was able to be there for them like totally, you know,

[00:08:28] I mean, I didn't have a choice. If I had been touring or anything else, I would have had to not

[00:08:34] go in it, you know? So it worked out in a weird way. I know you have a brother,

[00:08:39] but this kind of fell on you because of proximity? No, he wasn't around. Yeah, he wasn't involved.

[00:08:45] As we're talking about this idea of, you know, when it rains at pores or things coming in

[00:08:50] groups, I think there's a certain extent to which obviously like this, these very

[00:08:54] unfortunate things happening to your parents that was kind of a frequent incident. But sometimes,

[00:08:58] like it can be a little self perpetuating, you know? Like if this has impact on other aspects

[00:09:04] of your life as well and then things can kind of spiral. But do you feel like the stresses that

[00:09:09] you were under between the pandemic and your parents? Was that a strain on the relationship?

[00:09:15] Of my boyfriend, do you mean? Or oh no, that happened right before my dad got sick. So he

[00:09:21] was gone. Yeah, yeah. It all happened at this. It was like he's gone. Dad got cancer,

[00:09:30] got dementia and then it was just like bang, bang, bang, bang. One thing after the next with also

[00:09:34] because he had a lot of very dramatic episodes since he had dementia. He's all kinds of stuff

[00:09:39] happened. I don't need to get it good to it, I guess. But as we all know with dementia,

[00:09:45] like a lot of stuff, he got violent. You know, it was like a lot of stuff like managing that.

[00:09:50] Yeah. But after a year, he was much happier actually and doing grand. I had so many nice

[00:09:58] times with him. It was wonderful and my mom. So ultimately, I look back on it. I think

[00:10:04] it is a gift completely because I just got so much closer with them and

[00:10:11] it was great in ways I hadn't. It was great because of that and even though there was a lot

[00:10:18] of suffering going on. I remember during the pandemic, I would be talking to especially

[00:10:24] like Tory musicians who didn't really around to see their kids much. And in very hushed tones,

[00:10:32] talk about the ways in which it was actually kind of a blessing or I interview a lot of

[00:10:36] cartoonists and they need to be alone for long stretches of time. So they kind of enjoyed it.

[00:10:42] But you would do it in hushed tones because obviously, you don't want to sound like this

[00:10:45] horrible thing was good for you. But I think it's a good sign that you're kind of now able

[00:10:51] to accept that for how horrible the entire situation was that there were actually some

[00:10:58] nice things to come out of it. Yeah. I mean, that's true. I guess for introverts,

[00:11:04] it was okay. But yeah, no, there's definitely obviously

[00:11:11] a lot of loss and hell for a lot of people. Are you an introvert? Of course, yeah.

[00:11:19] I don't know why I said of course, but it's like, can't you tell? I'm so weird.

[00:11:23] You have a cat. Obviously, you're an introvert. I mean, come on. I got it.

[00:11:27] I also am an introvert, but like, you know, I can do stuff like this. And obviously,

[00:11:31] you can do stuff like this and then you can go out on stage and perform. And it took a really

[00:11:36] long time for me to reconcile those things because logically, they seem like they're at odds with

[00:11:41] one another. Yeah, that's interesting. So do you feel shy in everyday life?

[00:11:49] I am fine. If I'm going to the store and dealing with somebody who works there,

[00:11:57] like that's fine. I don't have, but for me it's really manifests itself when I'm,

[00:12:02] the worst, I could like go out on stage, you know, I'll like moderate panels and that's no problem.

[00:12:08] Yeah. But if I'm at a party where I don't know anybody, I just completely shut down.

[00:12:14] Yeah.

[00:12:18] Isn't that interesting? I don't know. I mean,

[00:12:20] I wonder if everyone has different reasons for that happening or if it's like their similarities.

[00:12:30] Well, what do you think is going on in your head when you're at the party and you shut down?

[00:12:34] I have an issue engaging with people who I don't know. And then, you know, if we really

[00:12:40] want to get into it, there's this weird part of me that ticks in where I'm like, oh,

[00:12:44] I'm a burden or people don't want me at this thing. So I'm just gonna like

[00:12:48] that's it though. That's it. I think it's like negative stuff in our brains maybe. I mean,

[00:12:55] I don't know. I get it. Yeah. No, me too. I think that's what it is. And for some reason you don't

[00:13:01] have when you're doing moderating a panel or you're performing or something in public,

[00:13:08] like there's a reason for you to be doing it. You're not, you don't need to worry about

[00:13:14] what, yeah, I sort of it's just different. It's more of like a, it's a thing that you're doing.

[00:13:19] You're performing. So that's not, it's a different way of connecting, I think.

[00:13:23] In your case, like you've got a set list in my case, I've got questions and you've got a

[00:13:27] little bit of a safety net that you don't when you're meeting a stranger. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:33] When it's like, okay, so they are, I think maybe what it is is there are certain places

[00:13:38] where you just feel more vulnerable or like not. Yeah, that's probably what it is. So I know,

[00:13:46] I think shyness because I'm like, yeah, I've had social anxiety. Now that I'm in my 50s,

[00:13:52] I don't as much, but I have the, I was so incredibly, I have panic attacks constantly

[00:14:02] as up. I would say like 14 through 30, I was like a mess and I have like,

[00:14:10] there's definitely a period where I was, I couldn't even talk to anyone. Like I had a

[00:14:14] couple of close friends, but then like, if I were to meet anybody like in college,

[00:14:19] like meeting a stranger, I would like literally have panic, like crazy panic attacks.

[00:14:26] So it's all anxiety related. And I think it's all related to self,

[00:14:29] like what's going on in your brain or like what you, you know, self, yeah, like the,

[00:14:36] what you're telling yourself or, you know what you, yeah, I don't know. So definitely. And I,

[00:14:46] I think at this point I don't care anymore as much, but I still have the

[00:14:52] one thing that I know that I have, which I is an issue for me being a musician is

[00:14:58] um, the residual effects of shyness in my body, which is that I'm like super tense around people

[00:15:07] a lot. And I'm the reason why that's important for me as a musician to work through is because it

[00:15:12] gets in the way of my singing. So look, I can't open up. So I'm working on that. Yeah.

[00:15:20] Um, do you get nerves?

[00:15:22] Yeah.

[00:15:25] If any of these things were obvious to me, Mary, wouldn't be asking you that.

[00:15:29] No, I mean, I'm sorry. Um, I'm always nervous around people. I like, I'm just

[00:15:36] No, but I mean, like on stage, do you get the nerves?

[00:15:40] Uh, oh yeah. Crazy nerves. Yeah. Like so intense. I got, there's a weird part

[00:15:48] of my brain where I can push it down and I can ignore it, but it's still there driving me,

[00:15:55] making me super tense. And I don't might not know that, but um, like that's definitely like a way

[00:16:02] that I've gotten through performing is just like, um, yeah. I mean, well, first thing that helps is

[00:16:11] that you've rehearsed it, right? So you know, like, you don't have to like,

[00:16:15] because you don't have to like free form anything. Cause it's first. And the second thing is that I,

[00:16:20] I, there's a place in me where I can, I can just like repress my anxiety about in that specific

[00:16:27] situation, even though I'm still really anxious. But if the crazy thing is like, if I, I could never,

[00:16:34] ever moderate a panel, like that is the most terrifying thing to me.

[00:16:39] Like people have asked me to come in to talk in front of people like,

[00:16:45] you know, like some kind of like South by Southwest kind of thing or yes, that kind of thing. Or like,

[00:16:51] I had a friend who's a teaches music, teaches this music on rock. I mean, this music teaches

[00:16:57] his class on rock music. And he asked me to come in and talk. That is like the most terrifying

[00:17:02] thing I can ever imagine doing having to stand in front of an audience and,

[00:17:07] and answer questions or talk. Like I think I would die. I would, ah, it's terrifying.

[00:17:14] Yeah, that's what makes this all so difficult is there's no logic to any of it.

[00:17:18] Wait, what do you mean logic to all the angst?

[00:17:20] Yeah, in terms of like how it, how it manifests because you're right. Cause like

[00:17:23] that's something I can do. And, and I've, you know, you talk about being able to kind

[00:17:28] of tamp that thing down. I think what I've gotten good at is acknowledging the nerves and almost

[00:17:34] sort of like using that adrenaline rush to help me.

[00:17:37] Oh, that's good. Wow, really? So how does it help you?

[00:17:42] When you get that adrenaline hit, you know, there's, there's the like lizard brain part

[00:17:46] of you where it's a little bit fight or flight. And to me, it's sort of,

[00:17:49] you know, your heart gets pumping and like,

[00:17:52] you know, you're like more alert and you're more engaged with things.

[00:17:55] Huh. But so it doesn't shut your, your, your brain down.

[00:18:01] It used to.

[00:18:03] But what do you, what did you tweak? What did you tweak?

[00:18:05] I will tell you exactly. Cause I, I'm gonna ask you the same question.

[00:18:09] Okay.

[00:18:09] So for me, it was a couple of things. For me, meditation was a huge one.

[00:18:15] Do you, have you ever meditated?

[00:18:18] Oh, uh, yes. Yeah. No, I do all kinds of stuff. Yeah.

[00:18:23] Meditation, but meditation specifically for this or just in general, you mean?

[00:18:30] It took me a long time to actually be able to like meditate with any efficacy at all.

[00:18:36] It was very difficult because partially because I'm like such an anxious person and,

[00:18:40] you know, it's hard to shut my part of my brain off. But what I realized is for me,

[00:18:46] one of the big values there is that it's something, once I start doing it with regularity,

[00:18:52] if I'm doing it like 20 minutes every morning, then that's something I can tap into. There's

[00:18:56] like a calm that I can tap into and that was very helpful for me.

[00:19:05] I mean also, I like a lot of people, this is a more recent thing, but I like a lot of people

[00:19:11] like hit, hit a wall during the pandemic, you know, with help stuff and everything else. And I

[00:19:17] finally started seeing someone, you know, and a therapist and, um, yeah, not a, not a relationship.

[00:19:25] I like that. It's like a comedy bit. I finally started seeing someone, a therapist. Yeah.

[00:19:35] I found out a thing that I suspected for a long time, which is that I have OCD and that

[00:19:41] I think part of my anxiety stems from the, the O part, which is obsessive, which is like obsessive

[00:19:51] thoughts. And that's when I get stuck in that cycle talking to somebody and that can be really

[00:19:58] distracting or like, you know, like when people talk about intrusive thoughts, they're talking

[00:20:04] about like, yeah, that thing of like, oh, you know, walking up to the edge of a rooftop and,

[00:20:10] you know, thinking about jumping off. That will really distract you if you're thinking like,

[00:20:16] what's the worst thing I could do or say when I'm on the stage in front of all these people?

[00:20:20] Oh my God. Yeah, that's so intense. I mean, I get, I feel that, uh, I can relate. It's really

[00:20:29] intense. Yeah. That's it. And then just like getting, getting better as an interviewer,

[00:20:36] like doing this long enough. And then also just like finding a way to just to tune out the audience

[00:20:43] as much as possible. But I don't know that that's not really a thing you can do in the same way.

[00:20:48] Yeah, no, it is like you could pretend you're in your own bubble. That really helps so much.

[00:20:53] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the lights are down most of the time. That probably helps.

[00:20:58] Yeah. No, I mean, I think all those things are so great. I mean, I think, um,

[00:21:04] that helps definitely because then you don't have to imagine what people are thinking that

[00:21:11] that part of leaves your brain and you just are able to feel what's happening more. If you

[00:21:17] imagine that you're, you have the bubble around you when you're on stage. That's true.

[00:21:22] Yeah. No, those are all such great things. I love that.

[00:21:30] What switch flipped when he turned 50?

[00:21:34] Oh my God. So much. Um, no, I mean, I relate. I've been, you know, I've done so many different

[00:21:42] things to try to figure out my life. Like there are lots of different kinds of therapy

[00:21:48] and stuff. And, um, and I've always been into yoga and, um,

[00:21:55] and, um, all kinds of things I've done. Um, oh, well lately I've just been really,

[00:22:02] I've been as a, because it's all music related. So I have been coming increasingly aware of

[00:22:11] how all the negativity in my head has affected my body. So I'm really, um, need to move and stuff.

[00:22:18] Um, so yeah, I've been trying, I've done a lot of different things like Alexander Technique and

[00:22:23] like I do exercises to help align my body, you know, anyway, so

[00:22:30] I actually don't know what Alexander Technique is. What is that?

[00:22:32] Oh, um, it's Jesus dude who lived like in the beginning of the 1900s,

[00:22:37] who was an actor, I think who lost his voice and he developed this whole system by like going

[00:22:45] inside of his own mind with like feeling where there's body tension and gripping and letting

[00:22:51] and how to let it go. So yeah, they, they basically, it's basically like this system of

[00:22:59] how to be aware of your body and how to have a like, um,

[00:23:04] um, posture that's aligned in a effective way for you. And anyway, so stuff, lots of stuff like that.

[00:23:12] Um, is what I do. I do this whole thing every day that's like all these weird stretches and kind

[00:23:18] of a meditation and breathing and like I was constantly working on that stuff. Anyway, so

[00:23:25] wait, what was your question about what did I, what happened when I turned 50? I don't know.

[00:23:29] Like everything shifted in my life.

[00:23:35] Yeah, like I said, it's like I, my role reversal with my parents was a big deal.

[00:23:44] Letting go of a lot of things happened for me and also something happens, I think with

[00:23:50] women at this age that's like,

[00:23:57] there's some sort of shift where you start.

[00:24:03] I don't, I don't know. I think of it as like we

[00:24:09] have had to learn to live a certain way. You start realizing how you've made yourself small

[00:24:16] because of society. And that's what society asks you to do

[00:24:20] for your whole life. And you start getting old enough where you realize like, you don't,

[00:24:29] that that's not the best way to, you know, that, that that sucks. At least that's how I am thinking

[00:24:35] of it and that, um, so, um, and you just start getting treated a little bit differently by

[00:24:42] the world too. Whereas you, you know, and you hear women say this a lot and believe me, it's true

[00:24:50] because I'm this age now where you just don't have as much value in everyday life because anyway,

[00:24:56] I can't get really into this stuff, but, um, it's interesting. No, it's true. It's absolutely

[00:25:02] 100% true. So that makes you go like, you know what? I don't give a fuck. Like I'm gonna do

[00:25:07] whatever the fuck I really want to do because, uh, you know, I just, I anyway, so, um, I am,

[00:25:16] this is all getting very out there. I don't really know what's coming out of my mouth,

[00:25:21] but yeah, I'm going through this period where I'm just like, I'm letting go of the,

[00:25:27] of making myself small, uh, and just coming into my own power a little bit more inside

[00:25:33] of my head, which is a great feeling and heart, but it's good. You know, I'm going to show my,

[00:25:40] my privilege on this one, but you know, in much the same way that

[00:25:46] for me, it's sort of hard to reconcile this idea of being an introvert and, you know,

[00:25:50] being able to perform like it is,

[00:25:54] I, you know, I, I, I, there's nothing that I've seen of you that would lead me to

[00:25:59] believe that you were making yourself small. I mean, you know, you're this, you're a rocker and

[00:26:04] you're, you're a Rolling Stone guitarist. I know. Well, that's the thing like you're saying it's

[00:26:09] like there's one person that's on stage and there's another person in everyday life. And a lot of

[00:26:13] times like the reason why we're doing this stuff is because our, you know, like I feel like

[00:26:18] a lot of performers are really shy, I think, in their everyday life. Yeah. No, I have had

[00:26:25] that comment before people that know me. I'm very different in my, you know, I'm like, not at all the

[00:26:35] same person, but you know, like you, yeah, if you knew me in real life, you wouldn't, yeah.

[00:26:45] I'm not, I'm like, I'm aware though. I'm a hermit. I don't leave my house. Yeah, all those

[00:26:50] things. Do you ever perform just acoustically, like just you on stage? Please God no. You don't.

[00:26:59] That's what I figure. That's what that's.

[00:27:03] Please, please don't know. I've tried. It's really hard. It's not my skill set. You know,

[00:27:08] some people are so good at that. Maybe someday. It's not your skill set, but also like there's

[00:27:15] power in being in a band. Yeah, well, there's a lot more instruments. It's just fun.

[00:27:21] You know, there's I don't want to say there's like stuff to hide behind, but it's not,

[00:27:24] everything is an entire, I mean, obviously when you're out there singing, you know,

[00:27:28] the eyes are mostly on you, but like, yeah, you have, you can kind of lean on people. Well,

[00:27:32] you can lean on people more than you could if you were out there with an acoustic guitar.

[00:27:36] Oh my God, that's the most vulnerable you can be, especially if you're not good. I mean,

[00:27:41] then if you're not good at it, then it's like, ah, it's not like me. I'm not good at that.

[00:27:46] Some people are really good at that. I'm trying to get better at singing and stuff. And

[00:27:52] I ultimately like, if I could play a show that was like solo guitar, that would be fun. That

[00:27:59] I could totally get into like a Ted Leo kind of thing. Just you like doing your songs with

[00:28:04] guitar. Oh, oh, um, I love Ted. Um, and yeah, no, that would be he's, he's amazing. No, I mean

[00:28:11] like classical guitar or not singing, no singing involved. Then I'm fine. Do you play classical

[00:28:17] guitar? Uh, I was getting more into it last year. I did, I did when I was younger and, um,

[00:28:25] last year I spent a bunch of time doing duets with my friend who's a really good classical

[00:28:30] guitar player and I was practicing like five hours a day at one point after I finished mixing my

[00:28:35] record, I was, my mom died. And then I, um, got through doing the mixes on my record and it was

[00:28:46] like so much stuff ended at the same time. Then I just jumped into this project where I was

[00:28:50] practicing classical guitar for like five hours a day for two months. And then I fucked up my back

[00:28:57] and I had to stop because I was like sitting wrong. Anyway, yeah, I love that. Like in a different

[00:29:03] lifetime I would be an instrumental musician and not sing because I actually like doing that stuff

[00:29:12] more in a weird way. Like I can be cut off from my emotions and be shy and it's awesome. It's fine.

[00:29:20] Totally fine because all I have to do is move my hands around. I don't have to actually

[00:29:25] interface with the world through my mouth. Yeah.

[00:29:33] Is there a place where what you're doing musically and that could potentially intersect?

[00:29:39] Maybe some doubt. That's what I was thinking last year, but we'll see. I, that would be, yeah,

[00:29:43] I mean, I really, I got another thing that happened during the pandemic that was

[00:29:48] really, really, really fun for me is I started studying Lute, which was so cool.

[00:29:54] And yeah, I got, I actually- People can't see it but my jaw like literally just dropped as you said that.

[00:30:00] Yeah, I got my Lutes right over there, but I have a friend who's an early musician. She's a Vila

[00:30:06] de Gamba player and she's so inspiring to me and I love wearing about music from the, you

[00:30:13] know, 15, 1600s or before or whatever. And that in another lifetime is totally, I would be really

[00:30:23] into that, but there's only so much time in the day, but I am going to get back into it, I think.

[00:30:30] Anyway, yeah, but I had to stop because I was like doing and working on my record

[00:30:34] and I just couldn't do both. So unfortunately, I put the Lute down, but I want to get back

[00:30:40] to it. Don't get mad at me and I swear I never do this. Yeah. Yeah. Can you play a little Lute for me?

[00:30:50] Well, I, it's really out of tune right now and it's all messed up and I also,

[00:30:56] I, yeah, if I had known that we were going to do that on the podcast, I would have practiced.

[00:31:03] Didn't occur to me to ask you to play the Lute on the podcast since you mentioned it

[00:31:07] if I'm being honest, but one of these days, one of these days. Yeah, one of these days.

[00:31:12] To a certain extent that kind of gets back to like your pre-guitar days, right? I mean you were

[00:31:19] playing other instruments early on. Yeah. When I was a little kid, I took viola lessons. I wasn't

[00:31:26] that good at it at all. I sucked, but it was still something I did every week. But yeah. And

[00:31:33] then I got into guitar and then I did, you know, I did, you know, I went to this music high school. So

[00:31:39] we did, I did a lot of guitar playing at school and a lot of lessons and my teacher was like an

[00:31:49] R&B jazz guy. He was amazing. And I just learned so much from that being at that school. It was

[00:31:56] incredible place for me as a lost depressed kid. It was like the best thing that could

[00:32:02] happen to me. And then I wanted to study classical guitar in college, but I did one year and I didn't

[00:32:10] like the music program where I was. So I stopped and I just was like, I just want to write punk songs

[00:32:18] and not do this stuff anymore. At the very young age of 20, I decided I'd had enough of

[00:32:26] studying music. And I've always sort of regretted it. I wish I had gotten a degree in it, but

[00:32:34] whatever, it's okay. You can always do that later, I guess. To an extent, I mean making that commitment

[00:32:40] to go to a music focused high school. It sounds like, you know, in junior high or middle school

[00:32:46] that you already were like pretty aware of what you want to do. Yeah. Luckily,

[00:32:52] yeah, that happened. I just looked into that. I mean, it was like it's a public art,

[00:32:57] the public school here in DC and it's a wonderful place. I just, I don't know what I would have

[00:33:04] done without that school honestly. It really saved me. So yeah, I was in the DC history

[00:33:12] class with De Chappelle actually. He was my, he sat next to me. He was just like this little

[00:33:18] guy from Ohio who's super nice. I'm gonna ask him the only question, but how funny was he?

[00:33:25] He was so, he wasn't cracking jokes, but he was really, really nice. Like very socially engaged,

[00:33:35] which is usually the sign of, you know, it's like a people that are successful like that or

[00:33:41] really good. He was bright obviously. He was very sharp. It sounds like. Very, oh yeah.

[00:33:46] Yeah. He was, I didn't know him well, but we sat next to each other in DC history.

[00:33:51] But the high school was amazing. I just like, we would like, there were

[00:33:57] musicians that would come visit and play and we do master classes like Joe Pass, this jazz

[00:34:03] guitar player came to play for us. And yeah, we got a master class with like Winton Marcellus

[00:34:10] and that was super cool. And oh, here's a cool thing. Earthwind and Fire came to give us a master

[00:34:18] class on the music business, which was incredible. And I wish I had like videotaped it. Yes.

[00:34:26] Yeah, I wish I had videotaped that 1987. It was a lot harder to videotape things in 1987.

[00:34:33] It was. Yeah, I know. But that was so inspiring as a, as a weird little depressed kid to be around

[00:34:42] this like totally different world and be so inspired by the kids that I went to school with,

[00:34:53] my teacher, like all these, you know, successful musicians were coming through to school like

[00:34:59] Dion Warwick spoke at the graduation. Anyway, so that was super inspiring and just like,

[00:35:05] I was like, oh, I don't have to be depressed and like, you know, it just showed me that like,

[00:35:12] if I did music that I wouldn't be depressed. So that was cool.

[00:35:17] Yeah, it's so important to have those people like to see somebody being successful at it,

[00:35:23] to see that somebody has been able to make a career. Obviously, like, it's a very different

[00:35:26] story now. But that, you know, I hear this from a lot of people like again, I interview a lot of

[00:35:31] cartoonists and this comes up a lot with people in comics that they're like, I didn't realize that

[00:35:36] you could do this for a living until yeah, such and such. Yeah. Right. Like until yes,

[00:35:46] it's wild. You know what makes such a diff? I mean, it's such a gift to get that at that age.

[00:35:54] It really is. I mean, it's like makes either makes you able to do it or not. So thank God,

[00:36:02] when things like, you know, that when we're given those opportunities as kids,

[00:36:07] it sounds like in a very real sense that like music itself was your way of

[00:36:12] connecting with people and the world as well as a kid. But I mean, yeah,

[00:36:18] now and forever. Yes, that is true. No, you're right. Yes, that's true.

[00:36:21] Yeah. Yes, it is true. I think that's why you know, I got into it, which I've heard other people say

[00:36:31] too. I mean, especially with music, it's such a social art form

[00:36:41] that you kind of get drawn into it because it's the thing that people usually like is that

[00:36:47] you're connecting with other musicians and you need each other to be able to make it unless you're just

[00:36:54] a solo, you know, person. That's why that's a little bit more scary, I think, because you're not

[00:37:01] actually connecting with the band members or connecting with the audience, which is the

[00:37:06] whole different thing. But yeah, no, I think it's, it's a nice, I found as a younger person,

[00:37:14] I think I found it was like a way I could connect with other people and not be anxious and shy.

[00:37:23] I don't know if I was aware of that, but that's what was happening.

[00:37:26] From my perspective, you had two really important things happening at around the

[00:37:31] same time. So there's that and then you're in a band with Alec Mackay, there is like being in

[00:37:38] DC at this moment when you were getting like Reese White and Deodd Warwick making a living,

[00:37:45] but then the other end you were seeing like, oh, that you don't have to be a superstar. Yeah.

[00:37:52] That was like the main thing that I think was going to punk shows in DC.

[00:37:57] And yeah, because it was just,

[00:38:08] it was inspiring in many different ways I would say. Mostly what I got from it was,

[00:38:17] A, it was fun because it was my friends that are a ghost you play and see it shows, but B,

[00:38:23] it was like anybody could do it when it was kids and it was like people my age or a little bit older.

[00:38:33] And there is also this thing about it wasn't,

[00:38:41] there's more like little gangs, it wasn't really, I didn't think of it as

[00:38:45] that people weren't trying to be good. They were just trying to be angry and trying to

[00:38:56] say what they felt and it was also kind of like little gangs, it really was. It was like these dudes

[00:39:02] and these little gangs is what that's what that scene was like, which is cool. But it was a whole

[00:39:09] thing. Also, I think another inspiring thing about it was just it was a whole fucking like

[00:39:14] cool underground weird network of these people doing something that was not

[00:39:21] anywhere else except for here. It was so local and they, no one was trying to

[00:39:28] get a big job and be successful and no one was trying to

[00:39:33] even be successful with their music because it wasn't about success or money or anything. It

[00:39:37] was about being in a gang and connecting with other kids and about that's really all it was about.

[00:39:45] Yeah, it was about yeah just like the little network, the little universe

[00:39:52] in DC and other punk scenes, local punk scenes. And it was really sort of like a,

[00:40:01] I don't know, in some ways it was weird. It was like a bunch of humans figuring out

[00:40:06] a thing to do that wasn't related, but making it up all on their own because it wasn't supposed

[00:40:12] to be related to anything else. Like, okay, like here are some instruments. Let's figure out what to

[00:40:18] do with these. You know what I mean? Like not learn how to play them from anyone else but

[00:40:23] ourselves. So then ultimately that is sort of also frustrating to me too because like nobody

[00:40:35] I don't know. It's easy to just like not care about your instrument and get because I didn't

[00:40:41] really feel like I fit in because I wanted, I wanted to be a good guitar player. I did fit in

[00:40:48] with my voice because I don't know how to sing. I'm like a punk singer so it's I'm a weird combination.

[00:40:55] Anyway, so I don't know. It was very inspiring to be around. Yeah, I would say.

[00:41:00] Obviously you know him now. I don't know how well you do him at the time but

[00:41:03] is there an extent to which Ian was kind of an exception to some of those things about taking it

[00:41:10] you know seriously in that way? Yeah. Yeah, I see what you're saying. You know what's

[00:41:17] something kind of cool is I know Ian and Alex since I've been a tiny kid because

[00:41:23] they we grew up on the same street actually until I was five and then my parents kept the house

[00:41:29] as a rental so I was always back on Beecher Street. Ian's a bit older but as Alex, Alex is

[00:41:34] closer to your age right? Alex is my brother's age just three years older and Ian is eight years

[00:41:40] older I think but so I love those guys and it's weird that I've actually known them for

[00:41:47] ever since I've been the little child but no, Ian has been an incredibly inspiring person

[00:41:54] to me and to many people you know made up his own rules and done things his own way and along

[00:42:06] the way helped a lot of people by supporting other bands and you know starting this whole label

[00:42:16] and he was one of the first people I remember who was really supportive. He's always so supportive

[00:42:26] that the other thing about the punk scene in DC is how supportive it was. People really cared

[00:42:32] about other people's bands and not at all. I don't remember that although you hear

[00:42:40] other people saying that they wanted to kick out the jams and like you know what I mean?

[00:42:45] Like I've heard Ian saying that. It's like all that you know it's like when you do a show it's

[00:42:50] like all about the whole thing kick out the jams like where you're trying to yes yeah

[00:42:59] so but at the same time everyone in that scene was really supportive and Ian being

[00:43:12] the main dude in that scene yeah I just remember him always being very interested.

[00:43:18] He's always very interested in what people are doing and supportive.

[00:43:24] When did you first have the courage to get up in front of people and perform?

[00:43:30] Honestly yeah I was from being around punk shows because

[00:43:38] it was just this feeling like

[00:43:44] your turn you know what I mean? It was like this show was like oh you can see all my friends

[00:43:48] bands play and now like who's going to be in another band and play? It was just

[00:43:53] it didn't seem as scary to play that kind of music I think so as opposed to like doing

[00:44:00] a recital in my high school which was terrifying but I still enjoyed that but this is different.

[00:44:07] Your brother ended up being a musician as well was it a musical house?

[00:44:11] My brother yeah he started playing guitar

[00:44:19] well it um my mom was very good about making sure we were taking music lessons so

[00:44:27] in that sense it was. My parents were not musicians but my mom really spearheaded that.

[00:44:34] Yep and so yeah no my brother I learned so much from him and he ended up like studying classical

[00:44:41] composition in college and he was really good but oh and then another cool thing about him is he

[00:44:49] got into playing guitar like have you ever seen anyone do two-handed guitar like tapping like Stanley

[00:44:54] Jordan? It was a big thing in the 80s not a big thing but there were people in the 80s

[00:44:59] like this guy named Stanley Jordan who played only with two hands on the guitar on the neck

[00:45:08] like he didn't strum he just tapped with both hands so it sounds more like a piano or a harpsichord

[00:45:14] or something. So my brother did this thing where he traveled around in Europe for like

[00:45:19] a while after like five or six years after college busking on the street

[00:45:24] with tapping guitar he's really good he played like Bach and all this awesome stuff so he's he's

[00:45:31] got any rights really good songs that no one will ever hear because he doesn't want to put him out

[00:45:36] in the world but he's super so talented. You've had projects that really intersected with uh

[00:45:44] what was going on in the uh the northwest at the time like Wild Flag again uh-huh how

[00:45:50] where or connected were you with that Riot Girl scene at the time? I also um I was playing in this

[00:46:01] band called AutoClave here in DC in the late 80s or 1990 maybe and I didn't I think that's right

[00:46:12] when everything started happening with Riot Girls so then I went to Boston to go to college and

[00:46:18] I would come back here and practice and one summer I came back and like um the whole Riot

[00:46:24] Girl thing had really taken off here uh because Bikini Kill I think was living here and so was

[00:46:29] Bratmobile some of the people from Bratmobile are from here but um and they were on the scene

[00:46:34] and it was awesome and there was like Riot Girl meetings and the whole thing was like really

[00:46:41] happening here um so that was really cool and that's how I found out about all that stuff um

[00:46:50] and then um then I got to be friends with some people out in Olympia there was like a connection

[00:46:56] between DC and Olympia like people were friends and like um but um let's see I guess I got to

[00:47:04] be friends a couple years later with Carrie Brownstein and I would go out and visit her

[00:47:09] and hang out in Olympia and stuff so uh I always really liked what was happening out there uh because

[00:47:18] it was punk but there were way more women involved which there were not here and when I that's why

[00:47:24] I ask yeah no when I was growing up going to these punk shows which is only a few years earlier

[00:47:30] but of course when you're that age it seems like the last last generation ago which is really

[00:47:35] is only like 1985 86 87 it was all guys and bands here and then um yeah and just women who uh Christina

[00:47:47] Blot who is total genius who I love so much um she uh wanted to start a band and literally hit me up

[00:47:57] because I was like one of the only girls she knew that played a guitar play guitar you know at

[00:48:02] the time like that would go to punk shows um so we tried to start a band and we tried for like

[00:48:08] a few years but we could never find the right drummer but anyway but finally she when I went

[00:48:15] to college and she found Melissa and Nikki and started jamming and then invited me and

[00:48:22] we talked a little bit about whether it was a musical house you know as you said your parents

[00:48:26] weren't musicians but something that like really resonated with me in a recent interview that you did

[00:48:34] uh I think maybe last year when you're talking about everything that was happening in your life

[00:48:39] and this record and your father who wasn't a huge music fan yeah and I don't know how much of

[00:48:46] this was this sort of the dementia but like yeah he got really into it you bonded over

[00:48:53] oh my god it was so wonderful um he always liked the like one thing that I loved about my dad is

[00:49:02] that he loved reading and learning about stuff and um and he loved poetry and but he never

[00:49:12] never really liked music that much but when he got sick suddenly for whatever biological reason or

[00:49:23] whatever reason that he'd just been not been aware of it his whole life he just suddenly loved music

[00:49:28] so yeah one day he asked me who the greatest poet of Canada was and I was trying to figure

[00:49:37] out what he was talking about I was like googling on my phone like greatest poet of Canada

[00:49:42] and I kept saying names and he was like nope nope so I had to and he's like text my friend

[00:49:47] and asked them so I did and his friend he had an answer in mind when he was asking you this

[00:49:53] well he had dementia so not full on though just you know medium uh yes he knew he knew

[00:50:02] he knew he knew yeah yeah he just couldn't remember so I asked his tennis buddy in Florida

[00:50:07] and they got back to me and said well I'm a big fan of Leonard Cohen so I think he's talking about

[00:50:12] Leonard Cohen so then I said dad Leonard Cohen and he was like yes Leonard Cohen so then um

[00:50:19] I got him like this box set of on Amazon of like all of Leonard Cohen CDs and his main activity

[00:50:27] would be listening to Leonard Cohen and he just couldn't get enough I was over and over and over

[00:50:33] and he he got fixated on certain songs and then he just liked singing them by himself too um

[00:50:43] it was amazing and also uh William Butler Gates the Lake Isle of Innisfree poem we every time I

[00:50:50] went over he would get up out of his chair and start saying the poem and then I would say it along with him

[00:50:56] um

[00:51:00] yeah and also um some Bob Dylan so he really just oh and another cool thing they were doing is

[00:51:09] my mom found um when she was doing okay she found this joke club for them to go to so they were

[00:51:16] doing a joke club every week which is so cute what is a joke club it was um for older people

[00:51:26] especially people with memory loss and um they just tell jokes in a room every week I should have

[00:51:33] guessed it yeah it was wonderful so my mom and would read you know look up a bunch of go jokes on

[00:51:39] Google print them all out and then they would go tell the jokes it was awesome do I remember any

[00:51:47] of them oh god we're gonna end on one of your mom's jokes no because I can't remember oh wait

[00:51:52] wait um um wait hold on let me look

[00:52:05] okay a policeman stops a man driving down the street with two penguins who are sitting quite

[00:52:10] comfortably in the backseat of his convertible sir he says you've broken the law you can't

[00:52:17] have penguins in your car take him to the zoo immediately the next day the policeman stops

[00:52:24] the same man who's driving down the street with the penguins but this time the penguins are wearing

[00:52:29] hats and sunglasses sir I told you to take those penguins to the zoo oh but I did reply to the

[00:52:37] man we had a great time and today we're going to the beach when I met you you were talking

[00:52:44] like a madman who just got high but I thought I could see right through it