Episode 660: Dent May

[00:00:01] There's this kind of, I don't want to say new trend, but there's a lot of, I noticed, new bars popping up that are like based on this Japanese hi-fi concept where you know

[00:00:24] you kind of have, usually you have like a library of records on hand and a really great, you know, audio system or something. And so yeah, I'm doing the parties at places like that and so yeah, I'm just gonna kind of DJ for a little bit,

[00:00:45] put the record on, hopefully people come to listen. I'll bring a box of records if anybody wants to buy one from me directly. So yeah, I haven't done this before, so I don't really know what to expect. And then I'm doing one on

[00:01:00] Bandcamp. Do you play your own music as your DJing? I mean, I never do. The only exception being at a listening party, I'll have to put the album on, but like I do

[00:01:10] DJ quite a bit and I would never play my own music. No, I'm sure, I'm sure, but there must be like a level of just awkwardness to like standing there and playing your own music for other people. Oh, it's, I mean yeah, it's gonna be

[00:01:22] awkward when I put the album on, I think. At these parties, I don't like love the idea of like listening with other people. Like really, at this point I've heard it so many times, I don't really want to listen to it at all,

[00:01:37] but I don't know, it's a cool idea. Hopefully I meet some people who like my music and it reminds people that albums exists and is coming out. Occasionally I'll talk to somebody who like actually listens to their own

[00:01:50] music for fun and it just, it's kind of creepy. That's like a psychopath. Right? Do not trust this person. Do not trust this person. I had this thing for a long time at college where I couldn't, if I was

[00:02:05] making out with somebody I couldn't have music by somebody I knew playing the background because it was just two. Oh yeah, I agree. Yeah, totally, very true. Yeah, I don't want to hear my music ever again, but I'm not like weird, I'm not weird about it. I

[00:02:21] don't, you know, it's fine. Just like a normal level of weird about it. Exactly. Do you, I mean, you have to like to a certain degree like re-engage with some of the old stuff before you go and play it live, right?

[00:02:34] Yeah, I have to remember how to play the songs. And I've actually have been for the first time actually rehearsing singing the songs along to the instrumentals. Just to kind of get my voice back in shape,

[00:02:50] I kind of find that my voice comes in and out of shape when I don't use it for a while. And so yeah, I have some work to do between now and the tour starting like to actually remember how to play the songs

[00:03:01] because you know, I write them and record them kind of all in this one big frantic moment and never play them again for for like a year or something like that. So it's going to be kind of tough because I'm not actually very good musician.

[00:03:21] It makes sense, but that's something that I never considered that I know that people have to re-engage with the songs they haven't played for a long time. But there's almost this like, like talking about weirdness, there's a like you're almost doing karaoke over your own voice.

[00:03:35] Yeah, you mean the live playing live in general? Or when I'm rehearsing? Yes, singing along to your own songs. It is weird. I mean, yeah, it's kind of cool though. I mean, it is an excuse to kind of re-engage with the songs and

[00:03:50] there are moments when I'm like, All right, I'm proud of this guy's pretty good. I guess. But yeah, so that's kind of something I'm new I'm doing where usually I'll be like massively underprepared going into rehearsals and like, so I'm just trying to part of it

[00:04:09] just kind of from a piece of mind to feel ready. I don't know. Well, I'm not one to like preach the importance of self confidence to anyone else because I very much a lesson I can learn myself. But have you at least like as you've as you've

[00:04:26] gone on and continue to produce music? Do you feel more confident in your skill set? Yes and no. I mean, I do feel confident in my ability to write and record a song and share it with people and do

[00:04:43] all that. But on the other hand, there's like a very intense dissatisfaction with myself and everything I do. And and and I don't want to full on say insecurity because it's more about just like a hope that I can do better in the future. So

[00:05:02] like, that's kind of them. What keeps me going and continuing to write songs is that I'm never really that happy with what I've done, even though like I can take a step back and acknowledge like this is I don't want to say good, but

[00:05:20] this is acceptable. I mean, I do there's a part of me that thinks it's very good, but a very small part of me. Most of me is saying, you got to do better than this, you got to do

[00:05:31] better than this, not to try to put my own music down, because I'm I am proud of it. But I don't know. It's tough. And I and I relate to everything he just said, it's a mixed it's a double etch sort, I would say that there is

[00:05:45] obviously, you know, it's not good for yourself confidence to always feel like that. But then if you feel like you've never quite hit the thing that you want to hit or it's never just like exactly where you want it to be, then that at least

[00:05:58] compels you to keep doing it to a certain extent. No. Yeah, I mean, I do think it's good enough to to release and share that the people and honestly, like, I want to be like the greatest songwriter like ever, you know, deep down.

[00:06:11] And that's kind of what I'm trying to do. But I obviously fall modest goals. Yeah, it's like literally, but you know, it's like, it's like, I'm not like, I obviously fall flat every time. But I think that where I end up is decent

[00:06:28] and worth sharing with people. So I'm not trying to say I'm terrible or something. But there is like this weird just self, I don't want to say hatred, self dissatisfaction that, you know, is actually part of what keeps me wanting to make

[00:06:50] another album. Because if I feel like if I was like, this is so good, I would probably not feel as compelled to make stuff. I always try to figure out where that comes from for me, because like, I had parents that loved me, they were

[00:07:06] supportive of the things that I want to do. And yet, I know that I'm harder on myself than any other person is on me. Yeah, it's also like there's some statistic like 100,000 songs a day being released on Spotify. So to what extent I

[00:07:21] have to ask myself why am I bothering contributing to this noise? So on one hand, I do set my standards very high, because I want it to matter. I want there to be a reason that someone would want to listen to my song out of the 100,000. But

[00:07:41] I also kind of like acknowledge the how ridiculous it is that I'm like, dedicating my life to doing this. And I don't have a particularly elevated sense of like the importance of what I do, even though I am proud of it.

[00:07:59] Would you classify some of that as imposter syndrome? Not really because like, I do think I'm doing the right thing. I mean, I really I don't know how to do anything else. So it's not like I feel like why am I doing this? Because I

[00:08:13] know I know why I'm doing it. But it does. Yeah, I don't know. I just kind of like, don't take it that I mean, I take my music very seriously, but like everything else around it. I don't take I don't take very seriously.

[00:08:27] Think I have the right read on this, but I feel like that's reflected in the music videos of like, Hey, let's just kind of have a fun time with this music I just made. Yeah, it's true. I want to have a good time making it and I

[00:08:37] want other people to have a good time for the most part when they engage with it. That's not to say I won't like have sad songs or like something kind of buried in there about darker feelings, which is I think is there.

[00:08:50] But ultimately, I kind of consider myself an entertainer. And I want to I do want to like make someone's day better for three minutes or whatever. This is cliche, but it's cliche for a reason like that to me is a benchmark of

[00:09:08] great pop songs is balancing like the subject matter with some you know, some some dark subject matter with like a really great hook. Yeah, those are my favorite kind of songs where it's kind of they sneak it in there a little bit, you know,

[00:09:24] do you have benchmarks for for success? I mean, it's there an extent to which people paying attention, people coming out to the shows, critical feedback or anything else like gives you a reason to keep doing this? I mean, not really. I feel like I've already exceeded

[00:09:42] like my expectations from like being growing up in like Jackson, Mississippi. I mean, I remember there was a point when I was talking to a friend and this is like before I ever had an album out, but I was releasing the demos

[00:09:55] that became my first album and we were kind of talking about our goals. And I was like, I want to play a show in New York City. That was like my goal. I was like, if I could just do that, that would be something

[00:10:07] I'd be proud of for the rest of my life. And I have to remind myself of that kind of thing because I've played New York like 100 times. I've played, you know, a lot of places around the world. And but yeah,

[00:10:20] there's always something else. I mean, you know, I mean, I have a recently the song I made with Idress went platinum. I never thought that would happen in my entire life. And so yeah, there's the benchmarks are more creative where it's like, I just want to make

[00:10:36] something so good. I don't know. And then like as far as like commercial success or anything like that. I've always been prepared to just be broke to like die penniless in a gutter. I really don't care. And thankfully, I'm able to like make a modest living

[00:10:54] actually making music. But I don't like I've never been like a business minded or commercial minded person where I'm really bad at that to be honest. So I don't know. I'm just thankful that enough people have wanted to listen that it is working out

[00:11:10] okay. But my only really benchmarks are just the quality of the music. And when you say you have to remind yourself what is what does that mean to remind yourself that, you know, that this this is kind of I guess that you're

[00:11:23] lucky that you're able to continually have this experience. Yeah, for example, I have a tour coming up and like there are moments where I'm excited about that and moments where I'm really stressed out and dreading it to be honest, even though like it's a

[00:11:37] process that I really love. I feel extremely lucky to be able to perform music I wrote to an audience, however big or small it is. But like in moments where I'm really stressed out or maybe dreading something that's kind of that I have to

[00:11:53] do to promote my music or something like that. I have to remind myself of that. Yeah, that I'm able to do it at all and remind myself of where I was as a kid dreaming about this. It's it's crazy. You know what I mean?

[00:12:10] So yeah, I mean there are there you know, I've been writing songs for like 25 years straight up. You know, this is my sixth album. So I do have to remind myself maybe even not actively but subconsciously be in a place where I am really

[00:12:25] aware of how how how special this is. Do you get stage fright or do you get anxiety at all around playing live? Well, the only I don't get stage fright, but the only anxiety I have is around my singing voice because I've had some like mildly traumatic

[00:12:43] experiences where my voice went out when I was sick and like I was embarrassed. Although honestly, after going through those experiences, the audience is there with you there down. They don't really care that much. I'm still alive. Nothing really that bad happens. But I have

[00:12:59] this weird fear of losing my voice because I actually do have a little bit of a sensitive voice. That's one of the reasons I'm like actually practicing singing for the first time in my life. And but yeah, so it's not stage fright where I'm like very comfortable being

[00:13:16] in front of people singing my songs. There's nothing bad about that. But there's like a bit of a paranoia about like losing my voice. That's like the main thing. This is like an anxiety. It's a way that anxiety manifests itself that I have to deal

[00:13:33] with is trying to figure out like how much to draw attention to that fact like on one of those nights where you know your voice is a little bit scratchy. Do you address it? You know, obviously you don't want to dwell on it. But part of you kind

[00:13:45] of wants to really like be like, Hey, you know, don't worry. This isn't how I usually sound. Yeah, I actually have changed my mind about this over the years and at this point, I don't say anything about it. I feel like if I really, if it's that

[00:13:58] bad, I should cancel it. I mean, that's usually if it's like I feel like I'm damaging my voice by singing through truly like a bad thing. But like I feel like as part of my like feeling that I'm an entertainer is that like I don't want one

[00:14:16] little thing I do or say to make somebody feel like, Oh, I wish I came to the wrong concert. His his voice is not as good as it usually is. Like I wish I went to one of the ones where his voice was

[00:14:29] perfect, you know, so I actually never say anything negative. I try to not say anything negative at all on stage just because I want somebody paid money to come to this and I want them to feel like it's like the best thing ever.

[00:14:43] Have you taken singing lessons at all? I have. I mean, even when I was really little, I like came up singing in church and school. I went to a performing arts elementary school where I was in the theater program and I was in a lot

[00:14:57] of musicals. So I took singing lessons when I was very young and I before my last tour a couple years ago, I took some like singing lessons, which I think helped. But I think what I've realized is that like I have enough

[00:15:11] of a basis to understand how to sing. I just need to like exercise the muscles and keep my voice in shape, which is something I don't do if I don't have a reason to do it. I'll go, you know, I'll go months without singing that much even I

[00:15:26] might write a song and I sang a little bit that afternoon. But like as far as getting in the habit, I find that like, yeah, just singing for like 30 minutes a day makes the world of difference between like, you know, not

[00:15:41] doing it. And plus I do, you know, I'm going out to social situations a lot. You know, talking over loud music at a bar or something is pretty bad for your voice. Yeah, drinking doesn't help either. Yeah, I like recently quit coffee

[00:15:56] because of the acid reflux and stuff like that. Yeah, gotta be careful. I quit coffee during the pandemic and I had actually quit drinking before that and I found quitting coffee to be like 10 times harder for me just in terms of like real chemical dependency.

[00:16:11] Yeah, it's really corny. Like I have this product that I got called wean caffeine. I mean, you could do this yourself, but it's like this thing that they give you a caffeine pill and like every three days it goes down by 10 milligrams. So, you know, if you

[00:16:27] if you drink a cup a day, start with 100 milligrams pill a day and then after three days it goes to 90 milligrams and it lasts 30 days. And I did it once before because I quit coffee for my last tour and then I like started again.

[00:16:38] So we'll see if I like start again. But I like it. Once that once I'm really fully off I realized that like I think that I do sustain energy better throughout the day rather than like go crazy for like an hour and a half and

[00:16:52] then feel kind of weird in the afternoon. So I don't know. It's just something I'm doing right now. Yeah, I think your body like your body starts to anticipate that it's coming and it like you and it regulates your energy level accordingly. So when it doesn't

[00:17:06] come, you're you're screwed. Oh yeah. The thing the thing I mean, the reason why the reason why I ask about singing lessons is I'm not suggesting that you need them, but just like, you know, like more and more musicians I talk to in the more I realize how

[00:17:20] important learning to sing correctly is as far as not actually like injuring yourself in the process. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that is really important and also like the other taking care of your voice when you're not singing that we're kind of mentioning is also really

[00:17:36] important. I find that a lot of people I know don't do that. I have a lot of friends that I do feel like have permanently damaged their voice over the years. You know, I've been doing this like my first time came out 15 years ago. So I've

[00:17:48] known a lot of people that do this. And I do think it's pretty common for people to permanently damage their voice. So yeah, all that's important singing properly. I mean, I think it's like, I think it's a little overstated. I think that like

[00:18:01] once you like get down a few basics and you're not just like straightening your throat and like singing from your throat and you can you understand that like breathing when you're diaphragm, even just like knowing what that is and practicing it, even if you're

[00:18:13] like kind of halfway doing it like that goes so far. And I do think another big thing is just treating being kind to your voice when you're not singing is huge, you know, smoking. I mean, I'm not trying to be like I'm like actually a really degenerate

[00:18:27] person. I love to drink. I you know, like I like totally like have no problem with like people smoking like actually like, you know what I mean? But like just smacking smoking is bad for your singing voice. That's I don't care if you, you

[00:18:41] know, do it. It's great. I actually I feel like nicotine is awesome. I love it. It feels good. Sometimes I still like I'll be out and I'll hit my friends like little like nicotine pin or whatever. Like else. I don't I don't know.

[00:18:56] I'm not I'm not like a T totaler at all, but I just recognize these things and I feel like being careful is really important. Yeah, there's a difference to why between like vaping and actually smoking a cigarette. Yeah, especially off you're smoking a bunch per day, you

[00:19:12] know, that's very different. Your voice had to be more out front when it was you and the ukulele versus now you know, playing with a band and having more like layered music. Do you feel like do you feel like you had to sort

[00:19:27] of lean into it in a way that you don't necessarily have to now? Not really, because I do feel like in my recordings, I mix my voice pretty upfront. And when I'm live, I do even though there's more going on in the in the arrangement,

[00:19:40] I do have my vocals pretty forward in the mix, like on the album and both live. So I do feel like it is like up there in your kind of like in your face a little bit. And so I don't necessarily to me it doesn't feel like

[00:19:54] my voice was more exposed than that it is now. Although now that I think about it, it was because you know, I did an entire European tour, part of which was opening for animal collective and like venues that were 1000 to 2000 people just playing ukulele and

[00:20:08] singing with my friend, playing maracas and tambourine and doing harmonies. And it was like very bare. So obviously my voice is much more exposed than but I've never really thought about it that way. I would guess that, you know, that that animal collective I'm speaking as an animal

[00:20:23] collective fans that they would, you know, be open to different experiences. But was that was that ever really awkward to get out? You know, they're this kind of big like bombastic band with four dudes to get out in front of that and be this,

[00:20:40] I guess at the time, relatively unknown person standing there with a ukulele. Yeah, I didn't personally find it awkward just because like part of me is just I wanted to embrace the fact that I'm doing something different. Some people here are going to like it some aren't.

[00:20:56] That's totally OK with me. Like I yeah, I feel like maybe it was a little awkward, but I never really that never really crossed my mind because it's just like here I am, you know, this this that was like my first time touring Europe.

[00:21:10] I would, you know, this is like a year after that conversation or like a year and a half after I said like I want to play New York one day and then it's like fast forward. My album just came out a month ago and I'm doing this.

[00:21:21] So I'm like, I don't care if it's awkward, you know, and I've never been the kind of person where it's like, you know, there's going to be some people talking in the back. There's going to be some people paying attention when you're opening

[00:21:30] for a band that kind of goes back to what I'm saying about. I'm not going to complain on stage in very rare instances. I might say something, but like I've never been the kind of person to be like, hey, I'm playing up here. Be quiet, pay attention.

[00:21:44] And that's one reason that now when I do solo shows, I have a little drum machine track behind me and I try to fill up the space a little more because yeah, it's like I recognize that I'm like these people like came out to have a drink in

[00:21:57] here music, not necessarily like be quiet. So if they want to have a conversation in the back, I don't I don't really care, although it can get gratuitous. And as a show goer, I find myself pretty annoyed when that's happening and I want to I want to listen.

[00:22:13] But as a performer, I'm just kind of like going with the flow and it's my job to command their attention if and be and play good music, you know. Having been on the side of that, do you feel like you're sort of more mindful or more attentive

[00:22:28] when it comes to like as a show goer showing up on time and making sure that you're watching all the opening bands? Yeah, I'm absolutely. I try to do that. I can't say I'm always perfect about it. It's hard if you go to a show

[00:22:43] and you see people haven't seen in months and it's pretty hard not to say like, hey, what's up and have a short conversation. But I'm like super mindful of that. And yeah, I always try to like get up towards the front and like listen to

[00:22:58] listen to bands and not be a jerk. I don't know. When you mention, you know, bringing something different with with the ukulele, it reminds me as I was reading every day that you did and you don't even think I'm paraphrasing said like, I don't want it.

[00:23:15] Be the ukulele guy, you know, moving forward. It reminds me when I was in college, which is a long time ago now, there was a ukulele guy in Santa Cruz who like and it was really novel at the time. And then they're and then it's like once the

[00:23:32] culture comes around to you, then you feel like you feel the need to go often like try something different because you don't want to feel like you were chasing that. Absolutely. And like to be honest, part of me was chasing that when I decided to do that.

[00:23:48] I mean, I liked Tiny Tim and like I kind of like like knew there were these there was this kind of novelty aspect to this that I wanted to embrace. And then there were like people like Jens Lechman in the magnetic fields at the time

[00:24:01] that we're also doing it. Obviously in the like early 2000s there was like a twee in depop moment where like ukulele was a thing and I quickly realized I maybe I was a part of it, but I don't want to really that to be my legacy,

[00:24:16] especially like as as it gets more I don't know. I don't want to say mainstream, but like, you know, you hear in like a Charmin ad with like a ukulele and a Glock and Spelan. It's like cutesy, cutesy, cutesy. And I'm like, no, no, no, no,

[00:24:28] no, this is not me. And I have to admit that it was a beginnig. I was like, oh, this is you know, if I say didn't may end his magnet was ukulele and like in the early shows I would like wear a cape

[00:24:41] and like have a weird suit on and like be kind of like theatrical. And I was like, oh, this will be one small reason someone might want to hear my songs and not just didn't may. And then once I did that, I was like, no,

[00:24:55] not to mention that I just, I want to do other things. I, I like a lot of different kinds of music. And I think that's reflected in what I've done since like it's, you know, I try to, I don't know. I'm just, I want to like

[00:25:08] be, I want to explore and not like I kind of another thing I've noticed doing this for so long is I think a lot of artists and bands get stuck having success with a sound thinking they have to do that for the rest of their career. And that's

[00:25:25] why it's like famously so many like debut albums are the best album and diminishing returns is pretty common. So it's like also that like self diss satisfaction I'm talking about earlier is kind of coupled with and that keeps me going. Like there's

[00:25:41] no re like I want to make an album that's like a piano and strings and nothing in my voice, nothing else. I want to make a full on like club album. Like I don't care. Like I can and will do any of that. And but as

[00:25:55] it is kind of like my albums have like a little bit of each, you know, oftentimes, but you know, I something I reflect on a lot years and years ago I was interviewing Wayne Claim from at the time I was using like in

[00:26:10] the context of the conversation was using the word gimmick, like as a bad word as like most people, you know, usually you use a word like gimmick and the connotations are that it's like, you know, like, like, like cheap or or hacky or that it detracts from

[00:26:23] other things. But he, you know, he effectively said, Yeah, like we're we're gimmicky band. We do gimmicks. We like gimmicks and that I was like, Yeah, I love that. I love I love just like, you know, continuing to embrace that and not necessarily feeling like doing something

[00:26:37] maybe a little bit silly or a little bit out of the mainstream is like necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, I mean, I think that what it really comes down to is is the rest of what you're doing good is the music actually good, like a gimmick that

[00:26:53] you know, that contributes to great music or that's like one aspect of just the way you perform or present your music if it's amazing. People are going to love that but if you're gimmicky and the music sucks, people

[00:27:06] are going to hate that. Do you feel like there's still some gimmicks that you use? Like on this album, are there do you think that there are are gimmicks? I can't really think of one. I mean, there's like aesthetic themes like that I do with the album

[00:27:22] title and art. For example, this one is What's for Breakfast and I'm in like a classic diner environment on the cover and I'm like currently writing a list of my favorite diners for a music website and that's not a gimmick to me, but it's sort of

[00:27:35] like an aesthetic world that I am building around the album and like this kind of in a way it's a sequel to my last album, Late Check Out, which was about kind of like old school Americana of motels, roadside motels and stuff. I feel like

[00:27:52] it's more like I'm, I like to think of it like I'm more of I'm building a world that around my music and I don't think of those as gimmicks. I mean, a gimmick would be something like I'm addicted to chapstick and my fans know it so

[00:28:05] I sell, I don't have it right now but like I used to sell chapstick, Dent made chapstick at the merch table. That feels like more of a gimmick even though I don't know if it is a gimmick but but yeah, I don't really

[00:28:15] exist outside of the music though. Exactly. Yeah, you know, you mentioned the magnetic fields and I was just thinking about this recently that they had, you know, that the album where every song every song on it begins with the letter I

[00:28:29] and I don't know, I'm sure like other people pointed out to you that having a hotline is, you know, in the tradition of like of they might be giants. And that's a good example. Yeah, these are all bands that have like yeah, have had those like little things

[00:28:45] that they've hung their hats on but have absolutely transcended that. Totally. Yeah, the hotline and the one called That's All video you could describe that as a gimmick or like but again it's also more of like an aesthetic world because I'm like doing the

[00:29:01] the like lawyer, the like ambulance chasing lawyer commercial and stuff like that. So yeah, I mean it's kind of gimmicky but it does feel like it's like building a world around it and it's I don't know, I'm not trying to say it's

[00:29:17] good but I had the hotline part of it was actually the part that my least favorite part about it because I've noticed it's a really common thing for bands to do like call this number to hear a little snippet of the album like it's really, really common

[00:29:31] but this was more like once I had settled on doing this like lawyer thing which Nathan expanded to include like other types of commercials like they all have this number flashing and Dent May is seven letters so like I can't remember what it is a one eight three

[00:29:46] three Dent May or whatever it's like I can't I can't not do this, you know what I mean. Yeah, and there are worse things to be compared to than they might be giants that like in my

[00:29:56] estimation. I love them, I mean I didn't even know that they did that but I've seen a lot of people do it I mean they might have been the first but yeah. Yeah early days they had something called Dial a Song

[00:30:04] which was like, you know, like a kind of a pre-internet kind of thing but I was also thinking like again getting back to to that Magnetic Fields album you know I was thinking about that and I was curious I should go back and kind of read

[00:30:18] you know the process of actually writing those songs because I was wondering how much of it was them kind of working backwards into that how much of it was him really like setting a set of parameters for himself to build an album around

[00:30:33] and it strikes me that like that the latter probably applies to a lot of your stuff in that building something around a theme like it gives you a focus so the air brain's not going in too many different directions at the same time.

[00:30:47] Yeah, I mean setting restrictions is so important and that's probably some the hardest thing for me because like my music can be quite maximalist and you know I am kind of like everything with a kitchen sink type of a ranger

[00:31:01] and I kind of like that I'm not necessarily trying to go full on minimal but you know like for example I was like I'm not going to have any strings on this album or horns even though I ended up putting one trumpet

[00:31:14] and I have a lot of like fake synth strings but it was just kind of a thing where it's like oh I'm going to like limit the palette a little bit and it's a little more you know there's a little bit less going on

[00:31:25] and then yeah like conceptually I don't know having some ideas like I do think that the I thing or like their 69 love songs that's like a framework to to like once you like decide on a framework sometimes the songs can kind of write themselves

[00:31:43] Yeah, I guess this is probably backlash to like the turn of the last century but you know in the last circles maximalist is a dirty word but you know I was writing an interview and you mentioned that in there too

[00:31:56] and you mentioned ELO and it's like you can't that's like unimpeachable you know Yeah, they were maximalist but like the music is great so what can you argue with? Well I am sort of a contrarian in the sense that like I feel like a lot of the

[00:32:11] 2000s and the 2010s have been minimal you know aside from music you go into a coffee shop and it's like beige everything there's nothing on the walls it's that like thing and like as soon as I see something kind of reflected in the culture

[00:32:27] I kind of want to do the opposite and I do think that like maximalist Psych Pop I don't know if it's in or out of style right now I do think that maximalism is coming back into the zeitgeist a little bit

[00:32:40] but I do think that like I don't you know when I see something underrepresented I think in the cultural zeitgeist I kind of want to do it not to try to say that I'm some like enigmatic like you know whisperer of culture or something

[00:32:55] but like yeah I've always kind of and also the thing with the ukulele thing is I knew it was kind of off-putting to some people and so like I've kind of always embraced that like I'm okay being a little cheesy or like being a little not like

[00:33:08] I'm not like a cool guy mysterious rocker that's just not me and I'm not pretending to be that so I'm like okay with being a little like doing things that some people will like and others won't I kind of embrace that Is there a sense in which

[00:33:24] maximalism is a reaction to your own early work? Probably so but it's also just I think it I think it just also reflects that I do like kind of like obsessively consume as much music and other types of media as possible

[00:33:41] and so I feel like kind of overwhelmed by like my desire to stylistically you know play around with all these different like tropes and like aspects of like the history of recorded music so I'm like trying to cram them all into like one song or one album and

[00:34:01] and yeah I think it but there is an aspect where it probably is like a reaction to like my first album and like I do think I had a little bit of an internal backlash to my own first album for whatever reason

[00:34:16] part of it is like ukulele becoming like uncool and popular culture at the time which once again I see it coming back right now but you know it is what it is I don't want to see myself I don't want to find myself

[00:34:28] very quickly learned I don't want to find myself giving any thought to trends or chasing any sort especially youthful I'm a 30 year old man at this point I'm not chasing any sort of youthful trends and I want to just do what I do forever and

[00:34:47] that maybe will come in and out of style but I don't know like I'm not chasing trends and I think that I wouldn't say I was with the ukulele album but like I think I would have been more likely to be influenced by

[00:35:04] what the kids are into these days at the time where now I'm much more secure than just who I am I don't usually end up using the video for this something that people are missing out on is that you're wearing

[00:35:15] what appears to be a Tommy Bahama shirt right now which to me is really I think it's actually like transcends any it's actually an LL bean but I loved it, it's funny to say I was talking about Tommy Bahama, I was literally talking about

[00:35:27] Tommy Bahama with my friend like literally two days ago Tommy Bahama aesthetic which funny enough I don't think I actually own a Tommy Bahama shirt but I own lots of like things that could be one but yeah exactly

[00:35:42] Funny moment in my life when I when I crossed that threshold from really enjoying the Yacht Rock video series to listening to music ironically to actually like oh this is an earnest enjoyment of like I mean obviously now it's like cool to

[00:35:58] talk about how great Steely Dan is but you know what I mean like that it was almost like taken as this as a silly thing at the time they obviously had a lot of reverence for it and then it's like yeah if you

[00:36:09] sometimes if you play something enough times ironically you begin to really like appreciate it on a very real fundamental level Yeah, I was talking to someone who teaches school the other day and they said that like middle school right now

[00:36:24] kids are right now are like obsessed with 80s music and they're so far removed from the cultural moment where obviously there at one point there was a huge backlash to like you know Duran Duran style like 80s aesthetics it's like the tackiest thing you could do

[00:36:38] but like you know down the line no one really you know remembers that or cares and I don't know it kind of also goes I don't want to say I'm a full on contrarian like in a negative way but it like I loved like Yacht Rock

[00:36:54] forever you know and there's a kind of thing where like I have this thing where like oh you think this is uncool the fact that you think it's uncool makes it cool or like there's a reverse of that where like once something has become cool

[00:37:06] in a way that everyone can agree this is cool the Rolling Stones it's like I love them I'm obsessed with them but like trying to me trying to be Mick Jagger would be the corniest thing I could ever do you know what I mean so it's like

[00:37:19] being a cool guy rock star there's always going to be a kind of a lane for that I'm sure but once that's what is considered cool it's not cool you know it's so funny they're like like maybe like six months

[00:37:33] or a year ago Steve Albini was going off on Steely Dan and like I had this in you know talking about how he helped oh I think you said punks hate Steely Dan and then I you know I had that like

[00:37:44] you know sort of like contrarian impulse to be like well Steely Dan is more punk than you ever are and I'm like I'm just like far like way too far into the looking glass and I've lost all context to suggest that Steely Dan is

[00:37:57] more punk than Steve Albini but at the end of the day like literally none of this shit matters well I mean the fact that he felt compelled to say that on Twitter is proof of the power of Steely Dan I mean that's like the irony

[00:38:11] that I hope is not lost on him you know that it's powerful and yeah it doesn't matter if you like it or not I would never have like the ego to think that like I need to get on Twitter dot com and be like

[00:38:28] oh everyone likes this thing here's why you shouldn't like it like that to me like I used to do stuff like that but that's like that's like to me the worst like narcissistic impulse you know and I don't I'm not trying to call out people

[00:38:43] who chime in on pop culture on social media it's fun and in a way it's necessary like it's impossible not to but like I'm out like I'm not ever gonna do that and especially when it's like you know there's like the like let people enjoy things

[00:39:01] type meme or whatever where it's like yeah I don't care if you like the same stuff I like or not and if something is super popular and I don't like it good for them like I don't yeah I don't know like whatever and yeah Steely Dan is amazing

[00:39:16] I like Steely Dan more than anything Steve Albini ever touched by far and not to say he worked on some great stuff but not enough for him to like come come come come say in that stuff yeah in a way the fact that and we'll collect who at

[00:39:37] the time you know not that they're not still great and cool but at the time we're like some like apex of like cultural cool coolness embraced you doing this thing that may or may not have been cool at the time must have been there must have been a

[00:39:55] validation there for you I was pretty surprised you know but I mean I met them like and became friends with them you know what I mean before they heard my music I guess or something like that I mean they knew I was a musician

[00:40:09] at first but they were recording they didn't have to put your album out no I don't know it's amazing I mean it is cool that's a testament to them they I don't want to speak for them but like they also come from a place of a

[00:40:19] pure place where they you know I think that I don't want to say what they were doing was ever uncool but I think that like in their early days what they were doing was off putting to some people and they were

[00:40:31] having a pretty abrasive live show in the early days but like they were specifically doing stuff that is kind of divisive and that love it or hate it the thing that's great about that is the

[00:40:43] people who love it are gonna love it so much more you know what I mean and they were never chasing trends they they invented the trend you know what I mean and eventually culture catches up

[00:40:55] with people like that and and so then yeah the fact that they like my music is cool and it to me it I don't know it definitely just shows that they're there I don't know to me they're just

[00:41:07] the best they're just nice good people and they're not like they're not trying to sign the next animal collective they're just you know it was it was quite a more of a friend thing or something I don't know

[00:41:19] I had avion a couple months ago it was the first time I'd ever spoke with anyone and I was like oh I don't know why I was kind of nervous I thought like you know you were going to be like

[00:41:27] too cool for school but it's like oh no it's just a just a dude that happens to be in a really good band which is always it's always very heartening yeah I mean they're the among the least too cool for school type people I've ever

[00:41:39] met in music you know which is cool which is great another way that strikes me as you sort of being a contrarian isn't the right word but there's a better word I'm blanking but kind of moving in two directions at the same

[00:41:55] time is that to a certain extent it strikes me that like you might you might almost have to be by the nature of the music that you make a bit of a micromanager with stuff that's a little bit

[00:42:07] like playing into the maximalist thing it's a fact that you're like co-operated studio I suspect plays into that too but also are so ready to embrace collaborations and in order to collaborate with somebody like you have to let you have to let up some control

[00:42:23] absolutely it took me a long time to learn that or to be comfortable with it I mean I didn't really start doing that until like maybe almost 10 years into you know my quote unquote career making music you know and it's also kind of one of the things that

[00:42:43] keeps me going it's like I'm saying I want to keep exploring and that's one way I can explore is by bringing other people into the process treating it more like a community than like a personal um I don't know like diary entry or

[00:42:59] something like that and it's one way to keep things interesting and also like I learn a lot collaborating and you know as I keep doing this I realize that like music is a community and like the friendships I have and the other people in my

[00:43:19] life who write music that I love like I want them to be a part of what I do um and yeah I mean there is part of that that's like the LA songwriting session scene

[00:43:31] which like I dabbled in but like I very quickly learned that if I'm not friends with you and I don't already know and like your music what we make today probably isn't gonna be good it and it's definitely or I would say it's probably not gonna

[00:43:47] well I don't know how to word this but it's probably not gonna be good and it's probably not gonna ever be released I mean you know it's just like there's a lack of almost like

[00:43:55] inauthenticity to it if you don't really believe in the product of course and I really hate the pressure of being like I'm going in with a stranger and we have four hours to write and record a song

[00:44:07] and I think that there are some hit songs that do get made that way but I actually think that probably the best of it wasn't made that way and it's different when I'm like hey one of my best friends

[00:44:19] let's get together some afternoon and there's the idea that like we could do this once a week if we want to in fact there was a time when I was having

[00:44:27] once a week songwriting kind of sessions with my friend Paul Cherry who co-wrote three of the songs on that new album but like it's way different when you're like have a friend for four hours being like let's see what happens then like a stranger

[00:44:39] that was like set up by like a publishing company or an artist manager I don't know I'm always open to it and I do get those emails sometimes and it's when someone that I've already really like you know catches my ear that's when I say

[00:44:55] yes in fact Jordana we already followed each other on social media and we like each other's music and had I think probably communicated like maybe a little bit like on social media but like that was actually one of the few things that like um like a publisher

[00:45:11] or manager or somebody like made that session happen and now we're like good friends so never say never. I had Carl Newman on the show and I asked him the question of just like you know because I've had people I've talked to a lot of people

[00:45:23] who have like these really successful I guess you know what you would do like Indie Rock or like you know like mid-level with successful careers and I was like ah you know you write such great pop songs have you ever considered you know doing

[00:45:39] this for you know being part of that machine and he said don't you think that if I could have gotten that to work that I would still be doing that like you know like obviously in terms of making a living doing music

[00:45:55] and still being able to pursue your thing on the side like that's a great that's a great road to go down but not everybody even like people who can write a great hook and greatest songs are not necessarily equipped to do it

[00:46:07] that way. Yeah I find that a lot of it's more of a networking thing or as well with the pop world it's kind of like there's a whole world of people that know each other and not to say I don't like those kinds of people because

[00:46:23] I do but like there's a very different attitude towards making music that a lot of those people have that is more transactional and that's okay but yeah I would you know I don't know but I don't know I'm down to try anything and if some

[00:46:47] thing where it's like I don't want to have a session where it's like somebody set it up if somebody like that loves my music and is like really wants to write with me

[00:46:55] definitely but it's the worst when like somebody set it up and they don't really know who I am and I don't know who they are and you're just there because you're there that's stupid.