Episode 661: Tracy Bonham

[00:00:01] It just depends. I tried and it does seem cool. It's very cool when you're there working. It's awesome. You've got stuff to do and you're working and then there's so many amazing places and restaurants and now like the artist, you know, community and it's awesome. I love

[00:00:26] the weather but when you're actually faced living there every day, for me it was just the loneliest place in the world. What do you attribute that to?

[00:00:37] Well, I think it's true. Everyone says it's car culture. I think it's true. Everyone is in their car and then they go home and it's so far... It's sprawling. Sprawling. So you can't just bump into somebody. I think the thing I missed the most

[00:00:50] after having lived in New York for quite a while was just striking up a conversation at the deli or maybe on the subway. There's none of that happening so you don't really get to even feel the flavor of

[00:01:06] the people and the cultures. Everyone just kind of stays away from each other and then everything has to be planned. There's no spontaneity. That's what I missed. You know, you can walk down anywhere here and stop in a cafe

[00:01:18] or get your nails done, whatever it is and you're going to like talk to people. There's something that people from outside New York, outside the city don't understand of like how difficult it is asking somebody to come to your bureau from a different bureau.

[00:01:38] But that is nothing compared to when I'm in Los Angeles and I'm trying to meet friends and I have to choose between my East Side friends and my West Side friends.

[00:01:48] I bet. And that's a big deal. And then you have to deal with where are we going to park and then where are we going to meet? Yeah, it's a lot. But there's a lot of trade-offs too. I love the beach so much

[00:02:00] and I really do love the weather too. You're a West Coaster by birth as well? Yeah, yeah. And I'm lucky that I still get to go back. My parents are there. My brothers are there.

[00:02:10] I also have family brothers and a sister in Southern California. So I'm pretty lucky. Have you considered the Pacific Northwest? Oh, I did briefly but now, you know, I have a 13-year-old son and he was young when I was considering it and or we were considering it.

[00:02:30] But, you know, our son's from Ethiopia and so there's not a lot of diversity at least. I was considering Eugene which is my hometown. I just, I think I want a little bit more culture.

[00:02:42] I want him to be around like, you know, all sorts of culture and the best melting pot is here in Brooklyn. Well, I would argue the best melting pot is here at Queens.

[00:02:54] Got it. Okay. We are the most ethnically diverse county in the United States. I just, you know, I have the data to prove it up. I believe you. I believe you. You're right. I was having this exact conversation with my therapist today when I was talking about moving

[00:03:11] and it was sort of a, it was an afterthought because I'm looking at Beacon and New Pulse, which I like quite a lot. It's a college town, you know, and then I do the thing where I go to

[00:03:24] Wikipedia and then look at the demographics and it's like, you know, 95, 96%. Yep. And most people are from the city too. That's the thing. I wrote it. I wrote a song called We Moved Our City To The Country because it's when

[00:03:40] first moved up to Woodstock and bought a place up there as everyone you bump into is like coming up from the city and then going out for sushi. And, you know, it's like you got to,

[00:03:50] got to mix it in with like the real local scene to really know what it feels like to, you know, to really be from there. I like that better than being a tourist or... What's funny is like that was her, her counterpoint. She was like,

[00:04:04] don't worry. A lot of people are moving there from the city. Right. Which is to say, you know, it's not going to be as white. Okay. Well, yeah, I guess you're right. That's true. You know, I mean, there's other places up there too though. There's Newburgh. There's,

[00:04:23] you know, places that are... I'm a Californian who has spent my entire time out here living in the city. So like, once you get to Westchester, I just lose all track of where anything is.

[00:04:35] I don't know the delineations between... I just happened to have gone up to Newpulse, you know, during the pandemic and really liked the nature and everything else up there. Oh yeah. It's beautiful, right? It's really beautiful. And it's...

[00:04:49] For me, Woodstock was a little too far away for a commute and I tried it a lot. It's like, for Brooklyn door-to-door sometimes three hours, sometimes five, but that's a little much

[00:05:01] for a commute. I'd say beacons and it's on the train line too, so places like that would be great. Now when you say commute, what do you mean by that? Right. Well, I mean, I started teaching and during COVID when we were quarantining up there,

[00:05:19] I would drive... I also have my relationship here in Brooklyn now and I would drive down like sometimes two, three times a week. That's a lot. It's a lot of driving and that kind of time, you know, it's just a lot of time in the car.

[00:05:36] I'm trying to get the timeline here. You were in Los Angeles, was like around the time of your second record? Is that right? Let's see. No, it was more like my third, which... What was it? 2000... I was there from 2002 to 2005. It was very brief.

[00:05:56] Three years is not an insignificant amount of time. I gave it a shot. Yeah. Yeah, was it the music business that brought you out there? No, it was actually post 9-11. I just... I was living in Brooklyn Heights right across from the

[00:06:10] towers and I just had... I kind of wanted to move west anyway and things had changed for me Living in the city was really tough and I had CNN on all the time, which was probably really

[00:06:26] unhealthy. So I didn't want to leave my apartment right. It was not the kind of life I wanted to live so I had some friends in Los Angeles and yeah, the music business is there, a part of it's there. That was compelling. What brought you up to Woodstock?

[00:06:47] Wanting nature. When I moved back from Los Angeles, this is when I got together with my ex and I kind of made a deal. I was like if I'm moving back to the city, I need a respite.

[00:07:05] I need to have a little escape plan. So just much like you when you're talking about wanting some more space and wanting to have trees and nature around you,

[00:07:15] I was able to find a place in Woodstock so that we could have both. We had the best of both scenarios. That's the ideal. Yeah, however it is one of those velvet handcuffs situations. Be careful what you're waiting for. A monkey spa.

[00:07:32] Is that it? A monkey spa. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining about wow poor me. I had two homes. It was so hard. But it's just expensive as all hell. That was really the thing that got me

[00:07:45] near the end. It was just too expensive and then you're just spending a lot of time on the road and I've moved around so many times in my life and also being on tour. I really am just longing

[00:07:58] to just be in one place and have one roof, one septic tank, one, I still love it. I love to travel but I really want home base to be one place.

[00:08:12] I've got a lot of friends my age who are starting to have kids now and this is the constant back and forth is how feasible it is and how much you actually want to raise a kid in the city.

[00:08:28] Yeah, I mean that's a really big factor to put in schools like we're going through nightmares just trying to find the right school and the lottery for the public school. It's really

[00:08:40] hard so you know now that I mean my son's doing well and we've placed him on high school and all of that hopefully knock on wood is done. Hopefully he'll stand one place but it's really

[00:08:54] not easy. It's not easy to raise a kid in the city. It's true. Does he have musical ambitions? No he does not unfortunately. Have you tried? Have you kind of like nudged him?

[00:09:05] Yes, I had him in piano lessons and he's naturally talented and he's really good. He's a little bit of a showoff, does not want to slow down at all but you know if he would have like locked it

[00:09:19] in and really committed he'd be great but his interests changed. He got a little older, the pandemic hit and that made having lessons on Zoom kind of difficult but he pushed through for a

[00:09:36] while there and then I think the screens and the video games especially during COVID it was it just was really hard to manage and I think it changed the trajectory for a lot of families and

[00:09:51] it's just hard for me to get him back on the piano. He's 13 you know and he's got the foundation now so I can always go back for sure. He'll connect with it at some point you know

[00:10:04] and I'm not suggesting he is at all but like I was a real asshole when I was 13 you know it's not an easy time. Right exactly, you came around. Your mom was a music teacher? Correct.

[00:10:18] So was she how much did she kind of nudge you in that direction? Well it was just a given it was like it was there for me and I just you know she and I have a kind of an intense relationship at

[00:10:31] the beginning because my father died before I was even two so she I believe she kind of more than her other kids I hate to say it and my other siblings are much older and from a different

[00:10:42] father. She just kind of took me and we really connected over music especially and I mean I have wonderful memories of us both watching Sesame Street and Electric Company

[00:10:55] and all of the shows that I loved growing up that were all about music or at least I really you know dug the music side of things and so did she and then I'd go and help her teach or I'd be

[00:11:05] her little helper and it I saw her on stage a lot too because she was in the local productions of like on a clear day you can see forever and you know all of these um musical theater productions so

[00:11:18] I was I was already hooked didn't have to she did not have to force me to do anything. Are you a Yo Gabba Gabba family? Did you? Oh I love Yo Gabba Gabba so I would say at one point

[00:11:31] yes I really love that show. I mean he's 13 now to be fair but. Exactly he's a little old but I think he'd have fond memories of he and I watching Yo Gabba Gabba I loved it. It was

[00:11:40] such a cute really clever show I actually they invited me to be a guest on one of their live shows when they were touring amphitheaters and so I was a guest doing the peanut butter

[00:11:53] stomp or something and um Bismarck he was there remember we hung out a little bit I know. How was he? Was he as great as uh. He was really charming and awesome yeah yeah that's awesome

[00:12:06] you uh you did a I don't know would you say it's a kids music project? Correct yeah is that a fair okay yeah kids music project for lack of a better charm at the moment. I'm looking at your I read that

[00:12:19] your bio which you definitely didn't write on your website and it says it's for quote young music enthusiasts. Yes yes yes of all ages I think even after that right because it's it's really the whole point of Melodion is to spark the inspiration in children

[00:12:38] but also grown-ups I can't tell you how many times I've played shows as Tracy Bonham and people come up to me knowing my black background as um you know classically trained or even

[00:12:49] beginning to be an educator and they'd say I wish I had a teacher that would wasn't boring or mean or discouraging and I wish I had someone to inspire me and I wish the material back then was

[00:13:02] was inspiring and that's the whole point of Melodion is to create um material that's not just by rote it's like it's going to stir something in a child or an adult to want to practice that

[00:13:15] was always something that I um really look back at my teachers from junior high and high school and they instilled the the joy of practice in me and for any you know discipline um it's wonderful

[00:13:31] you know the the joy of learning and then the wanting to get better and practice and and just taking things and under a microscope and slowing things down it's so much fun but you have to

[00:13:43] have the right teacher because if you heard that on if you read that on paper you'd be like boring but it's you've got to have the right kind of teacher that instills this this passion

[00:13:55] and that's what I'm hoping to do with Melodion. What is it about those those lessons you know I because yeah you're right in music especially when it's forced on a child can be incredibly

[00:14:08] arduous and boring and that's probably a huge you know I like when I when I think about becoming a writer a big part of the reason why I became a writer is because I had some

[00:14:15] good English teachers and that's probably a lot of people's stories. I think so I think it really just depends on how it's delivered to the child and if someone is like in like if you're intuitive as

[00:14:29] an educator and you can maybe be on their level but not so don't be pedantic about things you know but teach from a place of knowing where they're at and then finding their strengths and then

[00:14:41] like helping them from there not just like this is how much I know and I'm going to give it to you and you must take it I don't find teaching like that very helpful. You anticipated

[00:14:52] going down a more classical route with your career. Correct yeah yeah I really did. You studied you did you did the whole thing. Yeah I thought I was going to be in a symphony orchestra

[00:15:05] I knew I wasn't good enough to be a soloist and I went to school with those kinds of students and I was like okay that's not me and I was practicing a lot like six hours a day I'd wake

[00:15:16] up early I put on my big heavy practice mute so I wouldn't bother my neighbors or my roommates or whatever and I was really diligent. I should say it's the violin which is an awful thing to

[00:15:29] hear people practice. It can be especially if you're not that good oh my god I you know I pay kudos to my mom when I was first starting out you know because it must have been a couple

[00:15:39] years of just anguish for her ears. Listen my sister and I think she's going to be excited that I brought her up on this episode with you. Hi sis. Not in a great way just she just never

[00:15:52] she never quite made it to that level and it was just the the agony. Yeah it's it's hard it's a really hard instrument to learn and you have to have so much perseverance.

[00:16:01] I was always so jealous of those Suzuki kids that started at age three but again I have some real misgivings about Suzuki anyway that method but you know the ones that really were like starting

[00:16:13] really young they had such an advantage you know. But you gotta have a childhood. Yes that's true exactly I agree there and I'm lucky that I did have a childhood so I knew in

[00:16:25] the back of my mind it wasn't I don't think I really thought I was going to be classical player I knew it was going to be in my life always and I you know the reason why I went to

[00:16:36] I went to conservatory I went to the University of Southern California Music School. I that's all I could do I my SAT scores were terrible. I you know practice really hard on the

[00:16:49] violin I got a full scholarship and my teacher was like good thing you play the violin so well because you know I don't know what else you'd be doing in your life so I just I followed

[00:16:58] that it's a real backhanded compliment. Exactly I knew what she was getting at she was really old she was really German and I just was like okay get it Alice Schoenfeld you're right

[00:17:11] but um but I also had singing and I also had I had a childhood like you know where I was involved in musical theater and you know I played the piano I know it's all music and drama and stuff but

[00:17:21] I felt like that was a well-rounded exposure to the things that I liked and so then I decided I wanted to sing just because it was easier but also it was better

[00:17:35] way for me to communicate and express myself. You were always able to just stand up in front of people and sing? Yeah yeah from a very early age yeah. It's such an intimate thing to do.

[00:17:48] It can be yeah you're right but it comes naturally to you. Well you know if you're a ham like I am and was it I wouldn't say it's so intimate it's kind of like I'm just showing off

[00:17:59] totally wanted to be the center of the stage make people laugh I was my mom called me her little clown so it's kind of true so I wouldn't say it was intimate but now as I'm older I think

[00:18:10] it's very intimate and I'm really starting to even I'm you know I'm so much older but I'm I'm developing this relationship that I have with my singing with my voice that I never had before

[00:18:22] even because I'm I think as you get to middle age you start to go inward more and you don't focus on what other people think of you so much which is such a blessing so I'm all about

[00:18:34] middle age I'm so fortunate to be here but the intimacy now is with myself and really trying to be more authentic when I sing rather than constantly like I used to kind of make myself

[00:18:49] miserable there was a while there where I was like am I really enjoying being on stage because I am constantly critiquing what just happened like ooh that note's out of tune what if this

[00:18:59] note's going to be out of tune and you know the gears are churning and you're not even in the present moment yeah I this was actually something I really wanted to talk about and this

[00:19:09] is getting back again to I think to the the bio you have on your site but there were two things that really jumped out at me and they're directly connected um one of them I actually

[00:19:21] I think one of them actually comes from a post you did about some of the health issues that you've had lately and in that you said I've been having a lot of defining moments lately

[00:19:31] and then from the bio it's over the past several years I did a ton of work on myself those are obviously very closely connected and it sounds like a big part of why perhaps why singing has become much more personal for you that's a nice

[00:19:47] a nice perspective there yeah I you know I feel so blessed to to have music and to be able to sing but you know when I wrote the the part in my bio because I did write some of the bio um

[00:20:02] I know this is you jokingly at the end exactly you're being sarcastic nobody everybody writes her in bios now whenever I read a bio like totally well listen listen I and the reason

[00:20:12] why it's clear that you wrote this bio and this is why I'm keep joking about it is because it's it's personal in a way that somebody else wouldn't dare I think to write that right I get you

[00:20:27] yeah and I you know I'd love some advice on that because it's like if people really know that I'm writing it should I just be like so then I did this you know like instead of talking

[00:20:37] in the third person it felt so weird for me to actually write in the third person when it was so clearly obvious that I was writing it but I still don't know like the tricks of the trade on

[00:20:47] there so you want you want my my writerly advice as a professional writer I really like I really like it and I really like the little the little wink at the end I think it's great um I think it's

[00:21:04] it's you know I read a lot of I read a lot of press releases and you know it's clear when things are written by somebody who had a deadline or you know isn't super familiar with

[00:21:16] you know that that happens all the time and you kind of are you're kind of pouring your guts out a little bit in a very refreshing way I think oh well I guess I can't not do that I just

[00:21:29] can't help it I guess oh but I was going to say the work on myself that I when I wrote that it was kind of pre-diagnosis it was pre like finding out that that some more serious stuff

[00:21:40] was happening um this is very recent right as we're speaking yeah very last few months yeah yes exactly last few months but I it's it's an interesting story at least to myself it is and and I'm making a new album that has songs that are very much

[00:21:56] about this and also I'm resurrecting old songs that can totally be about this um just change the date um where uh which means like have I learned anything I don't know I was really unhappy in my marriage like really really unhappy but unable to make the changes

[00:22:17] I needed to or when I tried it just was met with a lot of um resistance in a way that really made me feel trapped and um the work I was doing on myself was about like going

[00:22:31] inward to really try and live a life where I'm I'm really like conscious of what I'm doing and I wanted to be the best version of myself I wanted to kind of really think about

[00:22:47] you know what my intentions are and and my actions and and everything and um um I think in being unhappy it it just it it was really hard for me to like grapple with it and

[00:23:02] I'm always afraid of confrontation if I go back to some of my old songs it's all about like I could only confront someone in a song couldn't do it like in real life and again I'm using this somewhat

[00:23:15] tucking cheek but I it my time with my therapist had sort of like you know we I think we had gotten all we could out of it and I you know kept joking that I was breaking up with her and it was

[00:23:26] so hard for me to do in spite of the fact that it's you know it's like a trans transactional professional relationship I still couldn't bring myself to do it I hear you right well probably you're you seem like a very empathetic person so when you're

[00:23:39] an empath it's just really hard you don't want to hurt people's feelings and the whole load of stuff I was like you did a great job I you know like she's she's a professional so

[00:23:49] she rolled with it yeah that was good exactly as she should I mean if anyone gives you flak especially as a therapist about breaking up which I have had like I recently in that marriage I also had a really

[00:24:01] bizarre trist not a trist a bizarre experience with the therapist it was not a true you're really crossing the streams crazy I just love that word trust it's not a trist it was not at all

[00:24:13] but it was weird because I mean I'm gonna write a book someday and there's gonna be a whole chapter about that and that therapist for sure but um he gave me so much flak about wanting to end it

[00:24:27] and he was really weird and defensive and he lured me back in it was just like it was like the bad relationships I've had in my life that I'm trying to work out in therapy it was like

[00:24:37] happening in real life it was ridiculous so empathy is part of it but the other part is especially with a relationship the other part is understanding that you know that that no relationships are perfect that there are going to be rocky times and um you know valuing

[00:24:53] being able to connect with the things that you saw in that person in the first place you're concerned that you might just be completely throwing it away and even if that's not a

[00:25:02] rational yeah you try to find the good that's true too that's really true and and I think it's you know if it's an important relationship like obviously my marriage is really important

[00:25:12] it's I felt like uncovering every stone was I mean that was a valuable experience to see if it would work and to try and to go to therapy or try to encourage connection and I think it's very

[00:25:30] valuable especially when there's a child involved for sure it's you have to look at things with a different perspective maybe do a lot of self work because you know I mean I know from therapy

[00:25:44] and from just being on this planet that there's we all have an ego and we all project our shit onto other people from early childhood stuff we're all bringing around our maladaptive coping mechanisms I love that term but it's really true and so if you can work on

[00:26:03] yourself it really can help a relationship a lot but what happens when you do all the work and it's still not working I guess that's when you have to really accept the fact that maybe these two people

[00:26:18] maybe shouldn't they'd be better off you know if they weren't you know in a yeah in a marriage or in a yeah has your relationship in a certain sense improved with him sense I think it will

[00:26:32] yeah and I think it's still been pretty it's pretty difficult it was a long long long process it was hard it was not fun and I think we're still both reeling from it unfortunately yeah

[00:26:48] it's really raw and I'm hoping you know someday uh and maybe we have to both let go of some things like I'm good I have to realize that I'll I might not never have like that real connection with

[00:27:01] my son's father and that's sad but at least you know we're co-parenting very well and that's good but I'm hoping for everyone's sake that there will be a connection at some point tell me if I'm totally

[00:27:12] off base on this but um and and this this is going beyond just the relationship but it but it seems like one of the things that you were grappling with just generally in life whether personally or professionally was effectively just going through the motions yeah

[00:27:31] I mean I know I look back at you know life before this marriage and life you know whether I was on the west coast or these because it doesn't matter like kind of not sleep walking through life but

[00:27:47] being yeah not really understanding who I was in everything and really knowing myself and I think that's getting back to that point of like really getting to know myself finally after all these

[00:28:01] years it's very valuable but things you know ultimately they might have to shift and then for me finding out that I had a you know breast cancer diagnosis um and I was always already dealing with

[00:28:18] some other health stuff before that even is the first time in my life I've ever had any kind of health stuff and I kind of think it was like my body just saying okay already like that was rough and you know I think the physical manifestations that happen

[00:28:37] are real from all of the anxiety and everything we we we should say for a week or any further it sounds like you caught it really early and that it's under control is that yes I'm so incredibly lucky um I caught it early and you know stage one

[00:28:55] and I already had a lumpectomy and um I'm about to you know go into some radiation treatments and maybe chemo but maybe not so I'm not out of that yet but I know that I'm very very lucky

[00:29:12] that I caught it early I dealt with some health things nothing um that huge but but any any major health thing you go through especially if you haven't gone through anything of that

[00:29:26] nature before it does put things into perspective and it does help you get your priorities in order sure does it really really does it's a gift I think you know I can say that because I'm not

[00:29:39] like sick sick but um it's really a gift it might not have felt like it at the time and obviously you had your period when you were you know playing coffee shops but you got success really quickly

[00:29:52] it seems like you know it was it was that it was that first record you were you got you got sucked up into that like 90s major label or record alternative rock thing um and I just I don't

[00:30:07] think that there's any way there are a lot of people who had success at a young age who have like you know who who turn out really well adjusted you seem very well adjusted but there's no way

[00:30:19] that you can have that kind of success at that age and it's not going to skew you a little bit oh especially when it's immediate like that there was no ramp up I mean I knew I wanted

[00:30:31] to be a musician all my life so that was you know whether or not I'm going to be successful or not I'm doing music but um the success and the fame was like a lot and I remember in the 90s you know it

[00:30:46] was kind of not cool though to be like major label there was that whole back with selling out was a thing yeah selling out was not cool so my label like paid an indie label so it wasn't

[00:30:57] fully indie right to put out my first EP as a I won't say fake but it was like as if I had been around a while being an indie artist when I clearly wasn't an indie artist at all but

[00:31:10] you got astroturfed is that what that what is astroturfing astroturfing it's a it's a political term it's the opposite of like grassroots it's like fake grassroots yeah it was a fake grassroots but I knew it like my tongue-in-cheek title uh the Liverpool sessions was my own inside

[00:31:28] joke as if I'd been around so long you know and like you playing the cavern club and yeah exactly right so I kind of knew it was all bullshit but you know I didn't I didn't I didn't um talk about

[00:31:40] it then but now I can because I think it's hilarious and it's so ridiculous like and all those bands back in the day that didn't look like they wanted to be famous or successful but

[00:31:49] you know they did you know they were all clamoring for stuff but they're trying to look like they didn't care I think Kurt specifically had a very big impact on that you know and obviously he was

[00:32:01] dealing with a lot of very real stuff but um he shifted the culture in a huge way he did and I and I felt for him and I still feel you know for for him in that way where it was hard that was

[00:32:15] it sounded like he was a lot of anguish about it too and you meet a lot of fucked up people you meet a lot of people who just are it's like parasites you know they just want something from you and

[00:32:25] that's hard and um if you're a sensitive person I'm sure he was and um maybe I'm not as sensitive but still like if you're a sensitive person you're gonna feel you feel used sometimes you

[00:32:39] feel uncomfortable why is this person talking to me are they talking to me because they like me as a person or do they want something out of me yeah exactly or they're treating me like I'm some

[00:32:48] kind of elevated thing when I'm not you know or if I remember hugging one person who came up for an autograph and they were shaking and it it was so bizarre to me but you know that is a part

[00:33:02] of the game I guess I mean you've probably been on the other side of that when you were younger that's when you were younger you can understand the excitement right I'm not much of a like I don't

[00:33:15] I've never my first you're not a starfucker is what I'm not exactly my first autograph was just because the dude was like in the room was like Chuck Mangione what that's an awesome first autograph right with the hat everything did it feel so good it feels so good

[00:33:34] yeah it was pretty silly you made a very I would say a bold decision to I mean you told your record label to end a contract oh who does that who doesn't well god I mean it was like one of

[00:33:52] those relationships where it was like it was like it was just ending and there was this like war of atrophy nobody really wanted to talk to each other anymore and I know war of

[00:34:01] atrophy is a great album title oh right I bet someone's done it before I'm gonna google it um I just knew I already knew honestly when I really look back at it I knew that when my first album

[00:34:14] came out I was in trouble I knew that by the second single my A&R people were leaving to go to epic records and whatever and then uh um the things were shifting and universal I can't remember

[00:34:28] I can't keep track it was like polygram sold island to universal and then seagrams got involved and then you know it's like but these are like corporate machinations it's not anything having to do with

[00:34:38] you necessarily no it was all just a lot of corporate stuff and I just saw that my time was going to be limited and then when def jam came in and I was trying to try to get in there

[00:34:52] with Lee Orkohan and you know he was like Tracy do you know who Lee Orkohan is oh my god he's like Tracy don't you want to be at the party you know like trying to get me to like

[00:35:04] you know I guess he realized that I was an artist but that I didn't quite have that like stab someone in the back to be famous thing and I was like well I kind of want to be at

[00:35:15] the party but can I come in through the back door like I don't need a limo in the front like I was trying to work with them you want to be able to Irish goodbye exactly Irish goodbye

[00:35:26] whenever I need to exactly that strikes me as very savvy being able to read the writing on the wall even as you were right in the middle of everything yeah yeah it was just clear I mean you know you

[00:35:40] have this huge single yeah huge single yeah really big first record and you already saw the atrophy well there's a song on my first album called one hit wonder and that was like I just

[00:35:55] I don't know I could just tell I knew that this it was a fickle business um and I was kind of preparing myself I hope I didn't you know um what do you call it manifest self self-sabotage

[00:36:09] but it just you know and I had a manager who turned out to be a real dick and like I should have fired him here's here's what we're talking about earlier we're going to go back to relationships

[00:36:19] and not being able to break up with someone who's clearly bad for you he was so bad for me and like he just started I can't even tell you someday in my book like I got so much I want to share

[00:36:31] but I have to like you know clear it with legal but you were young and he was professional and you didn't know the business that well and you wanted to you wanted to trust somebody

[00:36:39] you wanted somebody to have your back yeah of course exactly but then you realize like these people are just really in it for the buck or the fame or the glory or drinking champagne out of a shoe

[00:36:50] or you know like really I just want to make music and I want to I want to touch people that's what I want to do we talked about the first record we talked about the third record where does that

[00:37:00] sort of leave you at the in the second and the interim I can't keep track because like there's so many years in between albums too it's five years I mean that's a forever that's forever

[00:37:13] it's like well the first one was definitely not my doing at all because of the music industry and stuff but then the next one it was like big life changes what do you mean it wasn't your doing

[00:37:25] oh well okay so between my first and second album it was all of the stuff I just kind of mentioned briefly oh the hiatus wasn't yeah yeah exactly right the time like I was ready to

[00:37:34] release an album in 98 so that would have been two years after which is like long enough and I'm ready to get out there but then they you know the record label changed and then I had

[00:37:44] new A&R people and they're like I don't get the artistic numbers and then go write another hit single and I will buy you a piano if you go right and hit single sounds like a good deal

[00:37:55] so yeah right this this piano right here so but everything in between the other albums was basically life related stuff like life got in the way there's a lot of changes

[00:38:09] and I guess I'm one of those writers it's like binge and purge or something I don't even realize I have an album ready until I'm like oh I've got like all of this stuff cool let's go make an album

[00:38:20] that's your behind every good woman piano that's exactly that's my behind every good woman Lear Cohen this is going to be the hit of the summer oh wait he said this is going to be the

[00:38:33] female strong female anthem I was just listening to the song and it sounded it should have been a hit it should have been but you know what was being played on the radio at that time

[00:38:45] what year are we talking about 90 2000 okay so new metal yes would stock 99 stuff exactly I was there at Woodstock with Lear he brought me he invited me on his helicopter because somebody one of the four people on the helicopter somebody like Kevin Lyles or whatever was

[00:39:04] unable to go with him so he asked me to go because I had just performed in their board room and Lear and I had a nice like we just had a nice rapport so I went to Woodstock 99 with him

[00:39:16] on the helicopter and I will never forget that day because it the the energy there was incredibly um angry and volatile and a little bit scary and I remember crying because I'm so sensitive

[00:39:34] and Michael Lang who I got to know uh no and I remember he just like anything done by him is always like a little like either behind or late or never happening he reconnected with that first

[00:39:46] record he went through and kind of reimagined everything what what what was the what was the impetus behind that decision well you may know that a lot of artists go and they they re-record their first album especially if it's yeah or they tour on the anniversary yeah right

[00:40:06] anniversary maybe they do a sound alike and that was really the idea because um Island Record is gonna they're gonna own my album Masters in perpetuity so the idea was to make a sound

[00:40:19] alike and we did do mother-mother um so that you know like maybe I could actually make some cash on you know if I ever got a sync license or you know um and let's see before then like with streaming

[00:40:33] streaming wasn't so huge yet but um I decided that was boring because I was always I was like I've already done that and I know it's probably a really good um financial decision

[00:40:47] but that's not what leads me to do anything it is but have you ever been listening to pulling up on whatever streaming platform you're using and you're like oh this isn't the original

[00:40:56] yeah like especially if you have good ears like I mean I can listen to mine and I can I can tell for sure maybe somebody might not be able to tell but clearly I can tell it's

[00:41:06] it's not the original of course you did a 180 well so then it yeah so then my the producer that I worked with John Lacevsky from a band called late Cambrian um he's really creative and quirky

[00:41:19] and we just started to just make we were like what if we just let go of any like I'm not going to be precious I'm not gonna obviously make it sound like it used to so let's just open it up and

[00:41:31] for me it was so liberating because I already knew that the album did well so there was no like insecurities on the songs I was like people like these songs now let's stretch it out

[00:41:40] and then what happened was when 2016 elections came around if you know what I mean and the campaign before then we were talking a lot about misogyny and we were watching this like circus of a man

[00:41:57] and the way he operated uh and then what happened you could say I mean you don't have to you don't have to sneak around right well I don't like to see his name I honestly can not somebody

[00:42:06] sign a picture and it's just him from behind and you could just tell it's him of course exactly such a weird yeah he's kind of leaning forward that weird way he does speaking of being behind him I

[00:42:17] actually stood behind him on the red carpet when um I had a song in the Bridget Jones diary soundtrack and uh I was standing behind him directly behind him and it was really weird anyway um you could

[00:42:30] tell at the time that oh not a cool dude yeah he was not a good dude I don't I guess maybe that was already cleared to me very sure very certain and uh anyway so oh yeah so female empowerment became

[00:42:44] part of the conversation and then uh my producer and I were like what if we got other women you know women you admire from the 90s or maybe women you admire from now

[00:42:55] and you ask them to be featured on the album and that was so cool because the responses from any of the women that I reached out to it was so nice and to hear that like some of my favorite

[00:43:07] singers were actually influenced by my first album that was amazing and you just toured with Jill's sobio it sounds like I just uh like I just love cracking jokes with her and she's

[00:43:19] so incredibly funny and her writing is like really great it really inspired me um I really like the way she looks at things and the way she gets the audience you know to to participate and her songs

[00:43:34] are just so damn funny and they're really smart she's really smart how did the ballet come about oh that's the best thing ever it was around it was during COVID it was like 2021 in April or something

[00:43:50] and I got an email from the the director of Eugene Belet you're from Eugene yeah I am from Eugene so when uh my manager forwarded me the email I was like this is cool and and

[00:44:03] the guy had said you know Suzanne Hague the resident choreographer is a fan of yours and is reaching out because she'd love to collaborate on a ballet set to your music and they also said something that was very intriguing they said to your new music as well

[00:44:19] so I that was good to know because I was like do they want me to do mother-mother like for an hour up there you know or do they are they appreciating my art for who I am now and at the

[00:44:32] time and and it was clear especially when I started to talk to Susie and we started having our creative meetings that she was all about the new music I think she'd followed me on social media so she

[00:44:45] knew that my music had evolved and for me you know I didn't ever I never thought about making a ballet to my music but I have thought about why would you that's not a

[00:44:58] like a given no it's not at all but I have thought about you know cinema or you know visuals or you know and and I my new music is is way more cinematic and um evocative of that

[00:45:14] has your relationship with that song evolved did did you resent it for a period yeah I did resent it for a period because that's all anyone wanted to hear yeah and if I played it in

[00:45:26] the middle of the set like then half of the audience was leave you know there's that funny thing of that you know the bands who play the song three times exactly exactly after a while though

[00:45:40] you know and I did versions I'd sing it in Spanish sometimes I'd be funny I did that version that's like on the modern burdens album which I love it's like a

[00:45:50] bluesy 12-8 version of it um I started to come back around to it I you know I think I think doing that inner work really helped me keep my ego in check and part of that was

[00:46:02] my ego was like how dare they you know request that song I more than that but then I'm now the flip side is well how lucky am I that I have people requesting

[00:46:15] a song of mine and then they want to sing along so you know why not enjoy that it's a really cool position to be in for all of the difficulties of having that level of success early on like

[00:46:30] that's why you have a career right I mean yes that set everything in motion and everything that you have today and is directly or indirectly related to that first record yes foot in the door absolutely you're right yeah and I'm proud of it too like the song

[00:46:47] the song is so quirky it's still so quirky and I understand why you know like you know now you hear or you know in the 2000s and then now you still hear some of the female artists

[00:47:02] that were on heavy rotation back then they still are played in mainstream radio and I get it Cheryl Crowe and Alanis or or whomever but I kind of know why mother-mother is really still only played in select you know like maybe alternative stations or lithium or whatever

[00:47:19] and it's because it's so unique and quirky it it really kind of I'm proud of that even though you know there's there was a part of me that kind of wished it would have been you know one of those songs that's played on every playlist all the time

[00:47:35] you're also literally yelling during the song which might limit it a little bit right no it's true because I remember when we were eating dinner once it was like when my album was first going to come

[00:47:46] out and so we got the waiter to put on the album right and you know in this restaurant it's like Upper West Side and it's like all of these old like you know business people and I'm like

[00:47:55] thinking about what it's going to sound like when it goes to the chorus you know it's not like dinner party album can you still yell no I don't want to anymore it's a bad idea

[00:48:11] yeah I paid I paid the price you feel like sort of the the the angry young woman part of your life is in the past you know I still get pissed and I still right I'm still but it's that silent

[00:48:24] judgy kind of pissed yeah exactly the worst kind you're not mad you're disappointed yeah exactly oh right to the good yeah it's not as outward it's not as like pay attention to me you know it's

[00:48:39] it's more like okay this sucks the next set of songs I mean you're obviously channeling some I don't know if anger is the right word but it's you know deeply personal in the same way those early

[00:48:49] songs were true it's true it's just in a different package and I feel it's a little more eloquent now