Episode 671: Sean "Grasshopper" Mackowiak (Mercury Rev)

[00:00:12] So we got there and our flight out of New York was delayed.

[00:00:17] So then we were supposed to have a day to kind of rest, but then we were delayed like

[00:00:23] 10 hours in the airport.

[00:00:26] So then we didn't get there until the morning we played.

[00:00:29] So we were kind of just up and running.

[00:00:33] Had to moderate a panel in Hong Kong and got off the plane and then went to the venue.

[00:00:39] And you know, it's not quite like playing a full show, but I just like I turned to the

[00:00:46] guy and he said, I think I'm going to be okay, but like just in case things go off the rail.

[00:00:55] So you're, um, you're in Kingston?

[00:00:58] Is that right?

[00:00:59] Yes.

[00:01:00] Yeah.

[00:01:01] I asked because I was in the city.

[00:01:06] I was in Queens for about 20 years and I just moved up to the central Hudson Valley last month.

[00:01:12] Oh wow.

[00:01:13] Where are you at?

[00:01:14] I'm in Highland.

[00:01:16] Do you know Highland?

[00:01:16] Oh yeah.

[00:01:17] Yeah.

[00:01:17] So I'm just, yeah.

[00:01:19] Highland's not that far from where I am.

[00:01:23] I hadn't heard about it until I actually like looked at a place here.

[00:01:27] It's just kind of a blip.

[00:01:29] Yeah.

[00:01:30] Highland.

[00:01:31] So if I'm driving from my house to Poughkeepsie, I have to go through Highland and then go

[00:01:36] over the bridge and stuff.

[00:01:37] But yeah.

[00:01:38] That was one of the big draws is we've got the, um, that walkway between Highland and

[00:01:44] Poughkeepsie.

[00:01:46] Have you gone to Rossies, Delhi yet?

[00:01:49] In Poughkeepsie?

[00:01:50] It's in Poughkeepsie.

[00:01:52] No.

[00:01:53] Oh, it's kind of by the train station.

[00:01:54] You have to go there.

[00:01:55] It's like, you know, one of the best in the world.

[00:01:58] It's great.

[00:02:00] It's Italian.

[00:02:00] Is that the one it just like looks like at somebody's house?

[00:02:03] Yeah.

[00:02:03] It's like an, yeah.

[00:02:05] Yeah.

[00:02:06] It's amazing.

[00:02:07] I used to live in Poughkeepsie there a couple blocks from there, but it's world

[00:02:14] renowned.

[00:02:14] I looked at a place and the realtor showed me a place in Poughkeepsie and now

[00:02:18] like my understanding, you know, I'm really sort of like getting to know the area

[00:02:23] now, but my understanding is like town of Poughkeepsie, cool city of Poughkeepsie,

[00:02:29] maybe don't necessarily want to live there.

[00:02:31] Is that it?

[00:02:33] Depends on like, uh, if you're down there, if you're kind of down by the water

[00:02:37] there in that old neighborhood, it's pretty good there.

[00:02:40] And then if you're over by Vassar, um, it's pretty good there, but then a

[00:02:45] lot of in the midtown area, it's kind of, uh, kind of rough.

[00:02:49] You know, I came up the, much or north.

[00:02:52] Hudson line.

[00:02:53] Hudson line, yeah.

[00:02:56] Which you are quite familiar with.

[00:02:57] I understand.

[00:02:58] Yeah.

[00:03:00] You know, if I'd known the area better, I would have gone to the, the deli that

[00:03:04] you just mentioned, but I just found this like Bodega next to the station

[00:03:07] and two guys came in and started yelling at each other, like screaming at

[00:03:11] the top of the lungs, like older guys, like probably in their 60s.

[00:03:13] And one of the guys says to the other guy, uh, he's like, I'm going

[00:03:18] to cut your fucking throat.

[00:03:19] I'm going to cut your fucking throat.

[00:03:20] Right.

[00:03:20] And the guy leaves and then the other guy pays for his, uh, whatever.

[00:03:25] And he goes, oh yeah, that was my brother.

[00:03:28] I believe it.

[00:03:30] I believe it.

[00:03:31] That's kind of like the little Italy area that right there by the

[00:03:34] train station in Poughkeepsie there.

[00:03:36] So how long have you been generally in this area for?

[00:03:39] I'm trying to think.

[00:03:40] I've been here since about 95.

[00:03:46] Yeah.

[00:03:47] So like a chunk of really, I don't, this is kind of a goofy term to use,

[00:03:53] but the bands Heyday, he were up here.

[00:03:55] Yeah.

[00:03:56] Yeah.

[00:03:57] Yeah.

[00:03:57] I mean, I was, I was born in Buffalo and, uh, so I was in Buffalo.

[00:04:04] I was in Western New York.

[00:04:06] So I was 21.

[00:04:08] Then I was in, uh, New York city for a while on the Lower East Side.

[00:04:13] Then I've been up here since then, since, uh, 95.

[00:04:17] The band like essentially forms around Buffalo and does the entire

[00:04:21] group move down to the city?

[00:04:24] No.

[00:04:25] Um, I moved there.

[00:04:28] Suzanne Thorpe, um, Jonathan was kind of living half and half.

[00:04:34] He was in Oklahoma because he was in the flaming labs.

[00:04:37] And then he was going back and forth staying with us.

[00:04:41] And, uh, you know, and, uh, David Baker at that time was in Baltimore.

[00:04:50] We were all over the place pretty much, but me, myself and Suzanne were in New York city.

[00:04:57] You guys have always had a pretty close relationship with the lips.

[00:05:01] But I mean, in that, like specifically in that time period when the band was really

[00:05:05] sort of, it seems like from the outside going forward, was it difficult having a member

[00:05:09] who was like doing half time in Oklahoma and another band?

[00:05:14] Uh, it was just a lot.

[00:05:18] I took the bus there a couple of times.

[00:05:20] You took the bus to Oklahoma?

[00:05:22] Yeah.

[00:05:23] How long of a ride is that?

[00:05:24] It's crazy.

[00:05:25] It's, uh, I can't even remember.

[00:05:27] It was the long, it was long.

[00:05:29] It was like, I don't even know 20 hours or something.

[00:05:34] The guy I was, the guy that I was seated next to on the bus, he was,

[00:05:38] he had come up from Florida.

[00:05:40] He worked at Disney, he worked at Disney World.

[00:05:44] He was moving to Disneyland and he played Goofy.

[00:05:49] He played Goofy, so he was like Goofy and I had to ride with Goofy from,

[00:05:55] I met him, you know, in New York at Penn Station, I think,

[00:05:59] and then poor authority or whatever.

[00:06:02] And then we went across to Oklahoma and I sat with him the whole time.

[00:06:06] And then I said, see you later man.

[00:06:08] Good luck.

[00:06:09] Good luck in your West Coast Goofy.

[00:06:12] Do they get transferred?

[00:06:14] Is that a thing that happens to them?

[00:06:15] I think they can.

[00:06:16] I think they can if they want to.

[00:06:18] Okay.

[00:06:19] He put in for the transfer so.

[00:06:21] I see.

[00:06:23] Yeah.

[00:06:23] But yeah, going out there was crazy on the, on the bus and,

[00:06:30] uh, and Jonathan came back a lot.

[00:06:33] But yeah, I went on the road with the lips a couple of times and

[00:06:38] Nirvana was opening up.

[00:06:40] So this was during, uh, I think Nirvana's album Bleach.

[00:06:49] And so Kurt Cobain came up to me because I was selling merch for

[00:06:53] the lips and doing like tuning the guitars, doing confetti and

[00:06:56] bubble machines and the whole thing.

[00:06:59] And Kurt came up to me and said, Hey, can you sell our merch while

[00:07:03] you're selling theirs?

[00:07:04] Cause we don't have a merch guy.

[00:07:06] So I said, yeah, I'll do it.

[00:07:07] You know, so I had to count in his shirts and count him out every

[00:07:10] night that he'd tip me for selling his shirts.

[00:07:15] I've had a bunch of these in my life, but I suspect you've

[00:07:17] had a lot of these little sort of moments.

[00:07:20] You look back on them and they take on a lot more significance.

[00:07:25] Yeah.

[00:07:25] Yeah.

[00:07:26] Many, many times of, yeah.

[00:07:30] We, uh, when during Deserter Songs Robert Plant came backstage

[00:07:34] and it was funny because he was dating this girl at the time

[00:07:38] from, uh, he was dating this woman from, uh, New Pulse who we knew.

[00:07:44] So the small world, you know, it's like he came back to see us

[00:07:48] and he was with our friends from New Pulse.

[00:07:51] Crazy.

[00:07:51] That's wild.

[00:07:52] Yeah.

[00:07:52] For people who don't know New Pulse, that's actually right next

[00:07:55] to me.

[00:07:56] Right.

[00:07:57] Yeah.

[00:07:57] Did you have any interactions with Robert Plant?

[00:08:00] Uh, he just, he came back.

[00:08:01] Yeah.

[00:08:02] We, he was, he was great.

[00:08:04] He came backstage and we had a beer with him and stuff.

[00:08:06] And just, uh, we had a lot of questions about, you know,

[00:08:10] production and stuff of some of those solos and the,

[00:08:15] and, uh, you know, the arrangements that John Paul Jones did

[00:08:19] and things like that.

[00:08:20] But yeah, it's pretty cool because I find stuff like that

[00:08:23] can, can really go either way.

[00:08:25] Um, and obviously on both sides of this, but like, you know,

[00:08:28] just bum rushing this guy who was in, you know, one of the

[00:08:33] biggest bands of all time and asking a production questions

[00:08:35] he could easily just tell you to fuck off.

[00:08:37] Right.

[00:08:39] Yeah.

[00:08:40] Yeah.

[00:08:41] I think he liked the show so he was pretty, uh, you know,

[00:08:44] it was, it was in London at the Shepherd's Bush Empire.

[00:08:47] So he was pretty, uh, cordial.

[00:08:51] With Dave in the band too, I mean it production has been,

[00:08:56] it seems like production has been a really important aspect

[00:09:00] of music creation for you guys.

[00:09:03] Yeah.

[00:09:04] Yeah.

[00:09:05] That's, you know, when I knew Dave, I was in a punk band with

[00:09:11] I was in a band called, uh, the People's Front of Judea

[00:09:15] in high school and I met Dave Friedman then

[00:09:18] and he started, we needed a bass player so he started playing bass.

[00:09:23] Then I lost track.

[00:09:25] I mean, I was still talking to him for off and on,

[00:09:29] but then when Jonathan and I started doing Mercury Rev,

[00:09:33] I got back in touch with him so that we could record.

[00:09:38] And he was at Fredonia where I actually grew up in

[00:09:41] Fredonia.

[00:09:43] Um, so we were using the studio there and that was kind of

[00:09:48] your self-esteem.

[00:09:50] Uh, but we were kind of learning it all together at the same time

[00:09:54] like Mike Placement and just fucking everything up and doing things,

[00:09:59] you know, uh, completely backwards or,

[00:10:03] you know, in new ways to try to make it at that point,

[00:10:07] like digital sound just was coming out and stuff.

[00:10:10] So, you know, we had the big tape machines,

[00:10:12] but then we started to like computers and ADATs and stuff

[00:10:17] came in.

[00:10:18] So it was like that transitional kind of period.

[00:10:23] Um, but now everything you can do on pro tools and stuff

[00:10:27] in like a second, it would take us hours and hours to,

[00:10:30] uh, to edit stuff or, you know, reverse the tape and do

[00:10:35] a backwards solo or stuff like that.

[00:10:37] So we did it the old, the old school way.

[00:10:41] That's funny.

[00:10:42] I was a couple of days ago, I was interviewing John Davis

[00:10:45] from Super Dragon and he was talking about this moment that

[00:10:49] they had where they were like really putting their foot down

[00:10:53] about wanting to record analog.

[00:10:56] You know, like Donna Pro Tools, I know a lot of people were

[00:10:59] like very anti and, and I think it probably just didn't sound

[00:11:03] as good as it does now anyway, but was that,

[00:11:06] was that ever a principle for you guys?

[00:11:09] Was it ever important to kind of do it the old school way

[00:11:11] or once these new tools were made available,

[00:11:13] did you jump on board?

[00:11:16] Uh, we tried to always, and we still do.

[00:11:18] I think, you know, use, use both.

[00:11:22] Um, you know, we love the old tube stuff and running it through

[00:11:28] the valve compressors and things like that.

[00:11:31] But also, yeah, I mean just now that it's gotten so much better

[00:11:36] with the com, with computers and stuff, it's,

[00:11:39] and it's so much easier.

[00:11:41] We do, we've embraced that too.

[00:11:43] So we're, we've got to, you know, whatever's the easiest,

[00:11:47] but we like the warmth, the warmth and everything.

[00:11:51] I think some analog has to be in there at some point.

[00:11:54] It just makes it nice and cozy.

[00:11:57] Am I right in understanding that the band really kind of

[00:12:00] took their time with this record to get it right?

[00:12:04] Yes, we did.

[00:12:06] And I mean, we started recording, you know, during COVID.

[00:12:13] And so, you know, there was like stops and starts and stuff

[00:12:19] as there were, you know...

[00:12:22] Just in life.

[00:12:23] Just in life.

[00:12:25] But, uh, yeah, I mean the last year we kind of really pulled it together.

[00:12:29] We recorded a lot more stuff, probably like twice as much.

[00:12:34] And then we put the song, you know, picked out the songs that

[00:12:38] kind of stuck together and had a theme and, uh,

[00:12:43] and worked on those ones in the last year.

[00:12:47] What was that theme when it started emerging?

[00:12:52] Uh, well there's a lot of, there's a lot of references to

[00:12:57] like a bird, a bird inside me and, uh, I don't know,

[00:13:02] lost loneliness, um, trying to, um,

[00:13:07] to make sense of the world as it's changing rapidly

[00:13:14] before our eyes.

[00:13:16] Perhaps not for the better.

[00:13:18] Perhaps not for the better.

[00:13:20] But that, then, you know, the hope that's there through,

[00:13:26] especially through music that helps to bring you,

[00:13:31] to bring you back or give you a place to land that bird

[00:13:35] or plane on the runway, hopefully.

[00:13:39] What were those few years like for you, the pandemic years?

[00:13:44] Uh, it was, I have two young sons and, um,

[00:13:48] so I was, um, now they're 10 and 6 years old

[00:13:53] but I was watching them a lot because my wife

[00:13:55] owns a bunch of hair salons in a,

[00:13:58] in a hotel and stuff so she was,

[00:14:01] she kinda, and she, she kinda works in New York City

[00:14:04] on television and stuff sometimes.

[00:14:07] So she's gotta make that commute?

[00:14:09] Yeah.

[00:14:10] And so she was back working and I was, um,

[00:14:14] I was with the boys, I was with the boys

[00:14:17] watching SpongeBob and educating them

[00:14:20] and rentin' Stimpy and stuff like that.

[00:14:22] All the good, you know, classic stuff.

[00:14:24] Bugs Bunny cartoons and things.

[00:14:29] Frankly, that sounds like a pretty good time.

[00:14:32] It was, it was good.

[00:14:35] I mean, it was frightening but also because of what

[00:14:38] we didn't know it was happening but it was also

[00:14:41] really comforting.

[00:14:42] It was just like, I got to spend a couple years,

[00:14:45] you know, with my kids.

[00:14:46] You've been in a band basically your entire adult life

[00:14:51] and, you know, I, I'm sure you've talked to plenty

[00:14:56] of people who are in bands and toured throughout

[00:15:00] their kids' entire childhood.

[00:15:03] And, you know, I mean, obviously it's your job

[00:15:06] and it's what you have to do for a living

[00:15:07] but I think that there can be a lot of regret there.

[00:15:10] Yeah.

[00:15:11] Yeah, definitely from missing certain things, you know.

[00:15:17] Yeah, I mean just even just now just,

[00:15:19] I was in Australia for a couple weeks and I got home

[00:15:22] and just, my son Donovan like had a little growth spurt

[00:15:26] so he was big, you know, in that two weeks.

[00:15:29] So I can't imagine it, you know, if you're on the road

[00:15:31] for like six months or something, it's gotta be crazy.

[00:15:36] But I share a lot of stories too because Wayne

[00:15:38] has a couple little kids from Flaming Lips now

[00:15:41] so we send each other photos and stuff.

[00:15:44] I mean, you've got a pretty decent sized tour

[00:15:46] coming up, a European tour.

[00:15:48] Yeah, it's gonna be, yeah, a nice chunk there.

[00:15:52] Hopefully the kids will come out to somewhere,

[00:15:58] Scandinavia or something.

[00:16:00] Nice.

[00:16:01] How does something like touring change as you know,

[00:16:05] as you get older and as everybody has families

[00:16:07] and people, obviously you've been dispersed

[00:16:10] as a band for a long time

[00:16:11] but as people tend to kind of drift away?

[00:16:15] Yeah, I mean, well, it's just changed a lot

[00:16:18] in itself as far as like when we,

[00:16:22] in the beginning we used to like,

[00:16:24] they didn't charge you for extra luggage and stuff

[00:16:26] so we'd have one of those,

[00:16:28] we'd have one of those trolleys with like,

[00:16:30] I love a great pragmatic answer to a question like that.

[00:16:34] We used to bring, you know, we'd have like a trolley

[00:16:37] with like 20 guitars and bring all that kind of stuff

[00:16:40] and now, you know, you really have to strip down

[00:16:43] like because they charge you so much

[00:16:47] for bringing everything or we rent the stuff

[00:16:50] when we get there.

[00:16:51] But and just all the waiting,

[00:16:54] you know, it used to not be so many,

[00:16:57] I don't know if it's the climate change

[00:16:58] just because more people are traveling

[00:17:00] and are both or whatever

[00:17:02] but you know, the flights get so delayed

[00:17:05] and you spend half the time sitting in airports

[00:17:10] and waiting for misconnections and things like that.

[00:17:15] So yeah, it's kind of crazy.

[00:17:19] The travel now is crazy.

[00:17:23] Do you feel like the band just like,

[00:17:26] I guess kind of creatively or like in terms of

[00:17:28] you coming together and putting out an album

[00:17:31] going on tour that you've,

[00:17:34] that you're pretty locked into a cycle at this point?

[00:17:40] I don't know. It's different every time.

[00:17:45] I mean, there's, you have your certain rituals

[00:17:47] and things to keep yourself sane.

[00:17:50] Like everybody, you know,

[00:17:53] we'll meet together and have dinner sometimes or things

[00:17:56] but everybody disperses and kind of

[00:17:58] sometimes checks the city out on their own.

[00:18:02] Somebody's into used books or used records or whatever.

[00:18:06] But yeah, it's just,

[00:18:10] so you have that but it's always different

[00:18:12] and the different tours you do.

[00:18:15] Like in America, it's kind of different than

[00:18:17] when you're in Europe and things.

[00:18:20] So you think you're going to be locked into something

[00:18:25] and then never, you know, those funny little plans

[00:18:28] that never were quite right.

[00:18:31] That comes into the picture where it's like

[00:18:33] it's just thrown for a loop at every second.

[00:18:38] Obviously there was,

[00:18:40] there actually have quite a few years between these last year

[00:18:43] records. I assume that COVID probably played a big,

[00:18:45] a big part in that delay.

[00:18:50] Yes. Yeah, that was, yeah, that was why.

[00:18:54] It was a while.

[00:18:55] Just sort of broadly speaking in terms of,

[00:18:58] I guess sort of being creative and collaborating

[00:19:01] between the lot of you,

[00:19:03] what did that look like during that period?

[00:19:07] Jonathan and I would get together a lot when we could

[00:19:11] but then a lot of times there was big breaks in that

[00:19:14] which was good in some ways

[00:19:17] because we could reflect on what we had done

[00:19:21] or like work on the next step

[00:19:23] or work in song kind of like in groups

[00:19:26] with the songs

[00:19:29] which we've kind of always done anyways.

[00:19:33] But this was kind of like, you know,

[00:19:36] before it's kind of self-imposed

[00:19:39] and this was like imposed by other forces.

[00:19:43] So you had to work,

[00:19:44] instead of kind of making your own schedule

[00:19:47] it was a schedule of one you could do it

[00:19:51] but we were, when we couldn't get together

[00:19:54] physically we were doing stuff like this

[00:19:57] where we were just talking

[00:20:01] doing stuff on Zoom

[00:20:03] or, you know, talking to the other guy

[00:20:07] because Jesse plays with us

[00:20:09] and he's in Midlake.

[00:20:11] He's from here, he's up from here

[00:20:13] and from Woodstock but he, near Kingston

[00:20:17] but he lives in Denton, Texas

[00:20:19] because he plays with Midlake

[00:20:20] and so, yeah just talking with him

[00:20:24] and he got here as much as possible

[00:20:27] and played live with us

[00:20:28] but then there was a couple songs

[00:20:31] where we set him the tracks

[00:20:33] and then he recorded down there in Texas

[00:20:37] so yeah it was, you know, all over the floor

[00:20:39] doing things in different ways

[00:20:41] as much as we could get it together.

[00:20:46] We obviously talked about this a little bit

[00:20:47] at the top in terms of, you know,

[00:20:50] the importance of production

[00:20:51] and the importance of studios

[00:20:53] especially in kind of the formation of the band

[00:20:56] but at this point in the process

[00:20:59] you know, I think you, I assume you and Jonathan

[00:21:02] especially are pretty locked in

[00:21:03] but how important is it to get everybody

[00:21:07] in a room playing together?

[00:21:10] I think it's really important because

[00:21:13] with us

[00:21:17] we just, we love, we like that contact

[00:21:20] of playing together and having

[00:21:24] and feeding off of each other

[00:21:27] and so when you're doing it remotely

[00:21:30] it's harder to really lock into that

[00:21:35] energy and also just, you know

[00:21:38] do things on the fly or shout out

[00:21:40] suggestions and things like that

[00:21:43] and kind of figure it out as you're going along

[00:21:45] so it's like, it's pretty important

[00:21:48] for us to kind of be together

[00:21:52] in the room doing it.

[00:21:54] You made it sound earlier like in kind of normal

[00:21:56] I guess non-pandemic times that it's like

[00:21:59] that putting an album together is almost like

[00:22:01] a very like deliberate process

[00:22:03] that the two of you sort of decide

[00:22:05] that this is the time to start

[00:22:07] putting down songs.

[00:22:09] Yeah, we do, yeah

[00:22:12] we do that at least, you know

[00:22:15] and see what comes out of it.

[00:22:16] Sometimes just that, the push to just start

[00:22:20] to just start putting stuff down to tape

[00:22:24] or, you know, to tape or

[00:22:26] to the computer or to Pro Tools or whatever

[00:22:28] but we still do use tape and stuff

[00:22:31] but yeah I mean just to get that ball rolling

[00:22:35] and then you might not use what you first start doing

[00:22:38] but it gives you the idea

[00:22:40] it's done the road to that getting

[00:22:43] you know doing what you end up

[00:22:46] the final album that comes out

[00:22:50] is all in that road

[00:22:51] of discovery.

[00:22:54] It must be an interesting part of the process of

[00:22:57] writing those songs as you said

[00:22:59] almost writing like too much for the record

[00:23:01] and then starting to see

[00:23:05] these themes emerge

[00:23:07] I mean here it's really obvious right

[00:23:09] you know I mean not to put like too fine

[00:23:11] a point on it but that this is a product

[00:23:13] you know you mentioned

[00:23:14] loss and loneliness and trying to make sense of the world

[00:23:17] of very much of the current moment

[00:23:19] but is there ever a case where

[00:23:23] you started writing something

[00:23:25] a theme has emerged and you've kind of

[00:23:29] I don't know maybe figured something out about yourself

[00:23:31] or where you are in life that you didn't necessarily realize

[00:23:34] until you started that songwriting process

[00:23:37] I think that happens

[00:23:39] I think that happens all the time

[00:23:42] it happens all the time

[00:23:46] especially yeah with the lyrics

[00:23:49] you know Jonathan writes a lot of the lyrics

[00:23:52] and he might not talk about

[00:23:55] that aspect of

[00:23:57] of his life that deeply we'll talk about

[00:24:01] other things like the Buffalo Bills

[00:24:03] or you know the Yankees game

[00:24:06] or hockey or something but then

[00:24:08] when you hear this and these lyrics

[00:24:10] you're like okay he's opening up and talking about this stuff

[00:24:15] and that's what I'm kind of feeling too

[00:24:20] and then you make the music

[00:24:24] from there

[00:24:26] I don't know Jonathan is kind of like the director

[00:24:29] and I feel like the cinematographer

[00:24:31] I try to frame it for him

[00:24:34] and put it down

[00:24:38] you know get a good

[00:24:40] perspective on it and bring it all into focus

[00:24:43] a bit so we work well

[00:24:46] like that together

[00:24:47] you're just describing like such a classic dude thing

[00:24:51] of you know we get together we talk about the Yankees

[00:24:54] we talk about football

[00:24:55] and then under like the current is all of this like loneliness

[00:24:59] and despair that we won't address head on

[00:25:02] yeah

[00:25:06] pretty much yeah

[00:25:08] this case specifically like that is

[00:25:11] that's such an essential part of like that friendship

[00:25:14] specifically in that partnership but I assume

[00:25:18] like music having been such a

[00:25:20] an important part of your life for so long that

[00:25:25] you must just find yourself

[00:25:27] relating to other people through music in that way

[00:25:30] oh yeah

[00:25:31] yeah definitely

[00:25:35] yeah relating on that other unspoken

[00:25:39] level

[00:25:41] of music as communication

[00:25:45] where you're you know have to

[00:25:48] yeah necessarily say it with words

[00:25:51] it's in the feeling and

[00:25:53] in the color of the music

[00:25:56] and yeah

[00:25:57] I don't know yeah a lot of times I mean

[00:26:00] we finish each other's sentences or when we're working with Jesse

[00:26:04] and things which

[00:26:07] just describing what we want

[00:26:09] him to play you know it's like

[00:26:13] that a lot very

[00:26:16] intuitive for us

[00:26:17] I think to a certain extent this is probably overstated

[00:26:20] but you know there's a reason why it is

[00:26:23] the parallel between being

[00:26:26] abandoned being in a relationship

[00:26:28] in terms of like what you do say and what you don't say

[00:26:32] but it's always remarkable to me

[00:26:35] when

[00:26:38] people I mean obviously a lot of its luck

[00:26:41] a lot of it is working really hard but like finding

[00:26:44] that creative partner

[00:26:46] that the two of you

[00:26:48] I mean you know the band but the two of you especially have been able to stick it out

[00:26:53] for as long as you have what do you

[00:26:54] why do you think that is

[00:26:58] I don't really know I mean we were

[00:27:02] we have this we have a lot of the same

[00:27:05] likes

[00:27:08] going but you know football and hockey

[00:27:10] and things like that but

[00:27:14] but growing up in the 70s

[00:27:17] just a lot of the

[00:27:19] you know even beyond music

[00:27:22] we both were teenagers and loved the Blade Runner movie

[00:27:26] and we didn't know each other at the time but

[00:27:27] that was when we met each other we were talking about just that film

[00:27:31] and Star Wars and stuff like that

[00:27:34] pop cultural moments that we both liked

[00:27:37] and then you know the musical things

[00:27:39] like

[00:27:40] you know finding like Sonic Eats at the same time

[00:27:45] or Velvet Underground or Neil Young and things like that

[00:27:49] and the music that our parents you know

[00:27:51] his parents listen to a lot of Broadway tunes

[00:27:54] and stuff like that so did mine so we had like those

[00:27:57] kind of connections too and so

[00:28:01] yeah that stuff runs deep I guess

[00:28:04] I've always been of the opinion that like

[00:28:07] that stuff isn't superficial because there are certain

[00:28:11] things that draw us to

[00:28:13] similar things but

[00:28:16] but also just in terms of you know having collaborated

[00:28:19] with somebody for that long

[00:28:23] there's a certain amount of

[00:28:25] I guess having to kind of

[00:28:28] to put your ego aside

[00:28:30] in order to continue to have like such a fruitful relationship

[00:28:35] yeah and the trust I guess

[00:28:38] over the trust over the years

[00:28:40] to put that trust

[00:28:45] and know that

[00:28:47] you know when you do put your heart on your sleeve

[00:28:51] or whatever that it's going to be taken

[00:28:54] it's going to be taken seriously

[00:28:57] and worked on

[00:28:59] and yeah

[00:29:01] not cast aside

[00:29:04] it's a hard thing to do it's a hard thing to be

[00:29:06] you know especially like somebody

[00:29:10] drew up I mean obviously punk can be very earnest but

[00:29:13] you know

[00:29:15] it can be hard to put yourself out there

[00:29:19] and to be vulnerable in that way and so almost like

[00:29:23] to not worry about feeling like

[00:29:25] corny in the process of doing that

[00:29:28] yeah yeah exactly

[00:29:33] yeah I think a lot of that too

[00:29:35] was just like the

[00:29:38] some of the

[00:29:40] literature and stuff we were into like the beat generation

[00:29:43] and stuff where

[00:29:46] you know Neil Cassidy

[00:29:49] and Jack Kerouac

[00:29:52] and you know

[00:29:54] a very dude

[00:29:57] bros or whatever but then

[00:29:59] also there's you know that other level of

[00:30:03] hey we're going through this on the road and we're kind of like

[00:30:05] you know it's going through this life together

[00:30:09] and so there's the bomb there

[00:30:12] like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

[00:30:15] kind of thing of you know

[00:30:18] you got each other's backs through the thick

[00:30:21] and thin of the robbery

[00:30:24] you know

[00:30:26] the heist

[00:30:27] I don't know if it's

[00:30:34] after the second record

[00:30:36] you know when you kind of go into

[00:30:39] direction and your lead singer leaves or

[00:30:42] you know

[00:30:45] maybe those two records right there

[00:30:47] were received as well as

[00:30:49] you had hoped was there ever a point in there when it

[00:30:52] wasn't clear whether you were going to keep doing this

[00:30:57] yeah I think well yeah

[00:30:58] during Deserter songs we thought that was kind of like it

[00:31:02] they're kind of like well this is

[00:31:05] probably the end so let's make this

[00:31:07] the best you know thing

[00:31:10] we can kind of do and just go for it

[00:31:13] and so I think

[00:31:16] Deserter songs kind of came out of that

[00:31:19] it was maybe despair

[00:31:22] but also like throwing caution to the wind

[00:31:25] of like who cares this is

[00:31:28] this is it and so

[00:31:32] yeah it was kind of born of that I think

[00:31:34] but then it became this you know

[00:31:37] then it became the most successful so then we were like

[00:31:39] well now what do we do

[00:31:42] that's interesting so Deserter songs and that really did change

[00:31:46] the tide for you in a major way

[00:31:49] that was a result of

[00:31:52] like having nothing to lose almost

[00:31:55] yeah exactly

[00:31:58] you said it

[00:32:00] when time does come to record the next record

[00:32:04] and you've already gone for broke like what does that conversation sound like

[00:32:10] yeah I don't know

[00:32:12] well

[00:32:14] we did all this dream right after

[00:32:17] and that one was pretty was very successful too

[00:32:20] but I don't know we just kind of like

[00:32:22] we had this renewed invigorated

[00:32:27] that just came now

[00:32:28] yeah we didn't really even think about it as much as like

[00:32:31] we started writing those songs kind of on the

[00:32:34] on the road when we were touring with Deserter songs

[00:32:39] because we did

[00:32:40] we toured a long time for like a couple years

[00:32:43] so we were sort of getting restless on the road

[00:32:46] and we started writing some of those songs

[00:32:49] like Dark Is Rising and Hercules

[00:32:52] and a lot of that album like While On The Road

[00:32:55] so yeah that

[00:32:58] we just kept on keeping on

[00:33:01] can you kind of point to like what it was

[00:33:04] specifically with Deserter songs

[00:33:06] where things really clicked like what it was

[00:33:10] that you tried that you hadn't tried before

[00:33:14] with Deserters I think

[00:33:16] we had on Cio on the other side

[00:33:19] we had started to do

[00:33:23] work in different ways

[00:33:25] of I think there was like influences

[00:33:28] of doo-wop and jazz a bit more

[00:33:33] and just different kind of

[00:33:35] American music and stuff

[00:33:39] but with Deserters

[00:33:41] I think it was more realized

[00:33:43] and doing like the strings

[00:33:46] and wanting to do

[00:33:47] at the time we were during

[00:33:51] like before Deserter songs we had this little band

[00:33:55] up here in Kingston

[00:33:56] just for fun and it was called Earth To Chat

[00:34:00] and it was a bunch of friends of ours

[00:34:02] and stuff and we'd get dressed up like the Rat Pack

[00:34:05] and we'd do these tunes

[00:34:06] do like Sinatra and Tony Bennett

[00:34:10] like standards and stuff and have fun with it

[00:34:13] and that actually

[00:34:15] just doing that

[00:34:18] led us to this other way of songwriting

[00:34:20] this kind of different way of songwriting

[00:34:23] but then adding in our stuff

[00:34:26] with the noise and the production and things

[00:34:28] and so I think Deserter songs in a way

[00:34:32] was a combination of that

[00:34:34] of doing that project

[00:34:38] That's where horns and jazz

[00:34:40] I know you're a Claire net player that's where all that starts

[00:34:43] filtering into the group

[00:34:44] There had been glimpses of it

[00:34:49] I think on your self-esteem

[00:34:50] and bow season things

[00:34:53] but it became refined

[00:34:56] and came into focus with Deserter songs

[00:35:01] Did you ever feel competitive with the lips at all?

[00:35:08] Not really

[00:35:09] Not really

[00:35:10] I don't think

[00:35:13] maybe Jonathan might have

[00:35:15] I don't know if this is something you can relate to

[00:35:20] but something like I've been trying to get better at my life

[00:35:22] is just being happy about my friend's successes

[00:35:25] not tying to begrudge people

[00:35:30] That's not an easy thing to do

[00:35:32] Yeah

[00:35:33] I think we both

[00:35:37] wish each other the best

[00:35:40] in both bands

[00:35:43] One of the last shows we played

[00:35:46] before Covid

[00:35:48] it was with the lips down at Levitation

[00:35:51] in Texas and that was like

[00:35:53] this great show

[00:35:56] we had this great memory of that

[00:35:57] and then a few months later

[00:36:00] we're in lockdown and stuff like

[00:36:02] what the hell's going on now

[00:36:03] but yeah, we're still great friends

[00:36:09] with Wade and talk to him a lot

[00:36:11] I think there's room enough

[00:36:17] for everybody

[00:36:19] Is it clear every time

[00:36:22] an album comes out that there's going to be another one?

[00:36:26] You never know

[00:36:28] No, I don't know

[00:36:29] You plan on it but

[00:36:34] in this crazy world

[00:36:38] we hopefully

[00:36:40] there'll be another one

[00:36:42] You never know what the hell's going to happen

[00:36:55] Wash your gumballs down the drain

[00:36:56] We're gonna leave this city

[00:36:58] Gonna hop a train tonight

[00:37:00] Got a one-way ticket

[00:37:02] When the moon is shining bright

[00:37:04] We're gonna leave this city

[00:37:06] Catch the Hudson Line

[00:37:08] You know I love this city