Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
[00:00:12] I was very, very, um, you know, I would say unhealthily work a
[00:00:20] hollock like in my, um, 20s. I had no real other interests than comics and cartoons.
[00:00:32] And around 30, I crashed in some kind of depressiony way. I think I was
[00:00:41] kind of burning it on both ends a little too long. And so I had to kind of kick
[00:00:47] myself back on my feet onto my feet as they say, and um, uh, now I, I hope I have a
[00:00:58] pretty, um, healthy relationship with it. I do think that there is something, um,
[00:01:05] crazy, making about comics that there's been there is an actual, um, you know,
[00:01:12] the cliche is a little true of like someone making their own worlds and their
[00:01:18] little boxes and, um, staying in there. And, uh, but making, um, the animations
[00:01:25] which are, um, collaborative social projects, um, I think has helped me not go crazy.
[00:01:32] But I don't, uh, you know, kind of a round of, I, I, I, um, I, you know, being productive
[00:01:42] or not, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I think of being productive
[00:01:45] and productive and said try to think of like, my, my, you know, doing the healthy amount
[00:01:51] of things in the day and not going crazy. There's a certain amount of drive.
[00:01:57] I think a lot of people have in their 20s, especially is their first trying to establish
[00:02:02] themselves when, when you and I first met, we were both in New York City. I think that
[00:02:06] probably factors into it a lot for a lot of people in terms of making that transition.
[00:02:12] And I guess finding a more healthy balance in your life. What was that process like?
[00:02:18] Well, um, like I said, I kind of crashed there for a bit. Um, I think it was that,
[00:02:24] you know, I, I, when I, not that I looked back on it too much, but, um, you know,
[00:02:30] I did a book called Doctors and it's drawn in this kind of way that I think
[00:02:36] feels like there's kind of a sludgy depression there just in the drawings. Um,
[00:02:44] and I, I had never really, um, experienced that before and got to experience it.
[00:02:51] I did not, did not like it. But, uh, then around that, this was like 2014.
[00:02:58] I mean, I, I got a fellowship at the New York Public Library where I work started working on what later
[00:03:04] became disciplined. And that honestly, I mean, it's really, um, it was fantastic.
[00:03:11] I, I think I talked about the last time I was on this, um, um, on talking to you.
[00:03:16] Because I, it was like I had a job and I commuted to, um, the Brian Park Library every day
[00:03:24] and I worked on my book and I read and I, and, um, you know, I needed that kind of structure
[00:03:32] at that moment. Um, and I was around other people who were really interesting
[00:03:38] and, uh, that, that really helped. And, you know, the animations really helped me now as I've
[00:03:43] been in more of, they've become more and more, um, elaborate and, um, more and more
[00:03:51] social and, um, meaning that they require talking to other people and, uh, and meeting
[00:03:59] people that I wouldn't normally, um, get a chance to meet. Um, and so doing that for the past 10 years,
[00:04:06] um, in a bigger way, uh, has helped me. So I kind of break up the day like I wake up and,
[00:04:12] and I wake up early and I work on my stuff before anyone's awake and my comics and, and then
[00:04:19] lunch happens and, and then usually an afternoon is more when I talked to other people.
[00:04:24] But I got the sense that maybe my entire high school was perhaps less collaborative
[00:04:31] and maybe not even as collaborative as a lot of animation projects end up being in the end.
[00:04:36] But it, it sounds like you've transitioned to a place where you're working more closely with people at
[00:04:42] every step of the process.
[00:04:46] Yeah, I mean, it's comical to describe those projects as large scale productions because they're
[00:04:50] very small compared to other animations. Um, and cryptos who actually had fewer people working on it than
[00:04:57] the high school thinking, um, but all of the people were worked on it for longer and were
[00:05:03] deeper into it than high school thinking. I feel safe to say that. Um, but, uh,
[00:05:13] uh, they, yeah, they're not at the scale of most animated movies at all, but there's,
[00:05:17] but it's like being in a band, you know, it's, it's a, it's a band,
[00:05:23] Jane Emily and DJ, they're all here working on things.
[00:05:29] Um, then there's a, there's an editor composer, um, actors, um, you know,
[00:05:36] it's a producer, Kyle, um, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a band.
[00:05:43] You described the process of working a doctor as you, you said the art was,
[00:05:49] sludgy. It does that refer to the actual, like the way it came out or just the process of making it.
[00:05:56] That's what I see when I see it when I look at it. I think, oh yeah, I was impressed.
[00:06:02] That's what I, you know, for that book. So, um, um, um, you know, that, that,
[00:06:11] that's just the word I used to describe that very thick, that very thick line.
[00:06:18] But that book was made in a, um, kind of bonkers way where the page pages is different scene and,
[00:06:27] um, so, and a lot of the kind of key images in it are like random kind of clip art,
[00:06:36] looking things that I collized into a story. So it's sort of like a, and the stories about,
[00:06:46] um, bringing people back from the dead and it kind of not working, um,
[00:06:52] meaning they can successfully bring someone back from the dead, but it, it affects them up.
[00:06:57] I don't know if I can curse on this. Um, so, you know,
[00:07:03] I think it, it definitely goes with the story of that book and that's kind of how each of everything
[00:07:11] that I've done has kind of come about is that a story idea will, um, suggest the way of drawing.
[00:07:18] Um, but you know, there's the X-factor of where you are at that time in your life.
[00:07:24] And, um, you know, I think like blurry, it, I don't know, but it, it, I feel like it.
[00:07:32] Like, hang, I, this is a blurry, to, you know, again, this is from my perspective. So some,
[00:07:39] you could correct me if I'm out. But you know, to me this is not a,
[00:07:44] this is not a, a, a mist and traffic book at all. This is like a very people liking book,
[00:07:51] even if the people do things that you don't agree with,
[00:07:54] I, I feel like the book feels like you're hanging out with these people and that you like them.
[00:08:01] And, and so, um, that's what I sense when I look at it, you know, even just that the end pages
[00:08:08] are all the characters faces. And, um, what they're doing is dictating, you know,
[00:08:16] the, the angles of the drawing and it's about looking at people and all these kind of
[00:08:22] scenes. And so I think I, I think it, the mean, um, glow from the book is some kind of,
[00:08:35] uh, enjoying spending time with these people.
[00:08:38] Even the synopsis kind of gets at this that there is a,
[00:08:42] there's a banality in a lot of the things that the scenes revolve around in this book.
[00:08:49] Um, and I get this sense such as because you're tapping into everyday life and there's obviously just a banality in everyday life.
[00:08:57] Yeah, you know, the, um, I, I had a,
[00:09:03] I, I, I, a zone when it, when I just try to describe it in my sound like I'm being self depicting that,
[00:09:10] but not, you know, I thought can it be a little funny, but not very funny.
[00:09:18] Like the whole, the whole thing, the premise being built on these microscopic moments of doubt or microscopic questions,
[00:09:29] you know, do I choose this shirt or that shirt? These glasses that, you know, what flavor of ice cream?
[00:09:34] It's all like a little funny and things are well, but it's not, it's not a comedy.
[00:09:41] And similarly, I thought it should be a little dramatic, but it's not enough to be a drama.
[00:09:49] It's just a zone and the zone is pleasing.
[00:09:54] That was the hope.
[00:09:56] And that as you read it, you're like, oh, I guess this is just some rambling, um, yeah,
[00:10:02] but all thing, oh, this character is waking up. They're going here, they're picking, they're getting their coffee,
[00:10:09] you're like, oh, I guess this is just nothing. There's no structure to it. It's just like some, um, automatic writing and then somewhere in it,
[00:10:19] you're like, oh, wait, actually this is all very structured.
[00:10:23] And then by the time you get past a halfway point, you're like, this whole thing is like,
[00:10:30] I thought if you get to the halfway point of this book, ideally the latter half is, yeah, I'm super enjoyable because you're,
[00:10:40] you're it's all one long kind of zoom out from the latter half and you're kind of hanging through these things that seemed
[00:10:49] but all at first, but are kind of part of this bigger satisfying structure.
[00:10:54] It's interesting to hear you say that perhaps this is something that you had consciously thought about since the beginning,
[00:11:02] that the process of discovering the, um, the form that the book takes is part of the enjoyment and reading the book.
[00:11:14] Yes.
[00:11:15] Yeah, because you don't I mean, I, you know, it's an unusual trip.
[00:11:24] So I, I even thought about, um,
[00:11:29] I spent a, I wasn't sure to put character guides in the book because without the character guides,
[00:11:36] you're really thinking this book could just follow anyone. Why these people?
[00:11:41] Yeah, um, but, but I thought, you know, give people a break.
[00:11:47] The character guides got to help help you and help you kind of know what the book is about or what it,
[00:11:55] what it's going to be. I think is useful.
[00:12:00] Yeah, the, the, and, and, you know, again, it, because there's that structure part of it that,
[00:12:08] but ideally, what is satisfying is that you like these people, you know, interested in them.
[00:12:14] And then especially when you get in the latter half, you're like, how are these people going to actually connect as they seem so random?
[00:12:23] And then when they each have heard the story from the previous person, it's nice, I hope,
[00:12:31] because there's never like a one to one take away.
[00:12:33] You know, it's not like, oh, everyone in the latter half of the book is deciding one thing.
[00:12:39] And you're just seeing that one thing ripple out.
[00:12:42] It's more like, oh, all these people are kind of responding to the same things that we just read in different ways as it relates to them.
[00:12:51] So, uh, but if it, because if it was all just, uh, some weird, like, ulipo, like, puzzle,
[00:13:01] then I would, then it feel to me that's not as interest, enjoyable really.
[00:13:09] Then, you know, the emo part of like liking the characters and, and, um, enjoying hanging out with them
[00:13:17] and it not being some weird puzzle game from the author.
[00:13:22] You brought up doctors because in a lot of ways, this is the, and tithesis, um, in a very,
[00:13:30] like large and abstract way in that this had to be very structured.
[00:13:35] I mean, this seems like the kind of book that you had to spend a fair amount of time
[00:13:41] drafting and pre-gaming and doctors was really, it was so page-to-page that it was almost improvised.
[00:13:51] Well, you know, a lot of it sort of tricks to make it look that way because since I could drift with,
[00:13:58] because all the panels are done this drawn at the same size and blurry,
[00:14:04] I could re-draw things, move things around, add things.
[00:14:10] So I was drawing things in the first half of the book as I was figuring out what was happening in the latter half.
[00:14:16] It's a filmmaker trick really when he get down to it.
[00:14:19] Yeah, I mean, you know, the, the, that's all, you know, if you make movies,
[00:14:28] you know that you are going to redo the first 10 minutes of the movie in the last 10 minutes of the movie.
[00:14:35] You just know that.
[00:14:36] And, you know, when you start shooting, you know, that's going to happen and that always happens and why is that?
[00:14:43] Because usually at some point the movie says what it's going to be and you have to listen to it.
[00:14:52] And usually at that point there's a bit of, it's the best feeling because now you know that,
[00:15:00] oh, I thought I was making move about this but actually it's about this.
[00:15:03] So now it means that the ending has to be this or this character needs to be this way.
[00:15:07] But also it's a bit of a malin polyps feeling usually because you're like, oh, okay, this movie isn't going to be a cure up, you know, it's going to be.
[00:15:18] It's going to be this other thing, you know, like there, so the,
[00:15:26] um, yeah.
[00:15:28] I mean, I kind of, I can't make is like that.
[00:15:30] I don't, yeah, they're just different.
[00:15:33] It's a, you know, my books are, um, and I've said this many times but there, you know, they're like, my books are collages and, you know, comics are collages that you read.
[00:15:46] Their collages with like rules of moving from that for left hand corner to the lower right, like there, but they are collages.
[00:15:54] And the movies are, um, I think also collages where at some point it tells you, you need score here.
[00:16:04] You don't, this is, you, this actually, this is not supposed to be funny in this moment.
[00:16:09] It's supposed to be XYZ.
[00:16:14] Specifically in blurry, how did the beginning and the end change?
[00:16:20] Well, I, I guess the, you know, I, I, I, I don't know, I feel like I'm, I mean, I can say, but I feel like it's kind of blowing it.
[00:16:34] Oh, yeah, I mean, we can, we can skip the end if you don't want to give any spoilers.
[00:16:38] That's totally fine too.
[00:16:39] You know, the, the person who kicks it off is in some ways the most bland.
[00:16:49] The person in the book and that was, um,
[00:16:57] I thought for a long time that that was a mistake.
[00:17:03] Because beginning and then are the most important.
[00:17:07] But, um, then I was like, oh, he's someone who's kind of questioning who he is.
[00:17:14] That's sort of behind, you know, am I the kind of person who would wear this kind of dresser or not?
[00:17:21] This person says I'm like this.
[00:17:23] Am I like that?
[00:17:24] I don't remember being like that.
[00:17:28] So when I figured that out, when I'm like, okay, this person, that's the question in this person.
[00:17:33] I thought that that's appropriate to kick off this book.
[00:17:38] Because all of these people are, he's the bookend to all these other people and he's kind of wondering what he is,
[00:17:45] what his identity is in a very,
[00:17:48] maybe not identity, his personality.
[00:17:51] Like, oh, you know, he meets someone that said, oh, you used to be really crazy.
[00:17:54] And he's like, I don't remember.
[00:17:56] I don't think I was ever crazy enough.
[00:18:00] But, and then he has this brother who he's ambivalent about, who looks a lot like him.
[00:18:13] And I mean, I can feel like every giving away the book, but I felt like an ambivalence towards your sibling would be worth exploring
[00:18:27] because you can, because the, you know, it's hard to do in the book or movies not caring so much
[00:18:35] because it would mean the reader, the viewer doesn't care.
[00:18:38] But you could have a dramatic moment like a wedding or people kissing in the person wondering, how much do I care?
[00:18:46] Doesn't seem like I care very much.
[00:18:48] I thought that would be, you know, different that that would be powerful or good or a good idea.
[00:18:56] I can't remember what the book spells us out, but they're like effectively twins, right?
[00:19:01] They've got different facial hair, but they, as you said, they look almost identical.
[00:19:08] And that, I mean, obviously this isn't, it's hard to get a control for this kind of thing,
[00:19:17] but presumably if there's somebody out there who you grew up with who looks like you,
[00:19:24] so much of your identity is probably based around the differences between you and that person.
[00:19:32] Right. You know, it's also, it's also a kind of a graphic thing, not to be, to make it sound too dumb, but, you know, like it's the same drawing repeated.
[00:19:50] I was reading some of the interviews that you were doing around discipline and, oh no.
[00:20:00] No, no, no, no, no, no. It strikes me.
[00:20:03] I think it was an interview that you did with the LAA review books, but that, so I'm going to paraphrase you and correct all the things that I get wrong about this.
[00:20:15] But that, that effectively like part of what broke that book open for you was finding something that you could zoom in on and finding a little bit
[00:20:28] of the everyday life in this much larger thing. I mean, you know, you were taking on religion and a sense, but also the Civil War, which is, you know, as epic as worse get.
[00:20:45] And it was a struggle for you until you figured out how you could almost attack it on a smaller scale.
[00:20:57] Well, the, I don't remember exactly what I said, but the, you know, the main idea was that it was a Quaker book and I know what that's like.
[00:21:11] So that kind of grounded me meaning I know what it's like to be in Quaker meeting houses and I grew up with all of that and then in rich men dig up.
[00:21:20] So, you know, I think especially for people who maybe aren't don't live in rich men Virginia, it seems weird to be interested in the Civil War, but since I live here, I grew up here, it's like it feels weird, it's like all around.
[00:21:37] So, the, it felt like this thing was, and then Quaker is during the war at that time was such an unusual situation.
[00:21:49] And so many Quakers fought that I don't, you know, so the, the, but I mean, you know, I, I, that book, I, I think,
[00:22:09] the fact that blurry is basically staying staying in doubt for, you know, the whole book.
[00:22:19] Probably is because I spent years kind of thinking that the discipline book was a bad idea.
[00:22:26] And you know, I would quit it like I think I quit it for a whole year.
[00:22:33] I had done a section and I ran in Sammy Harkham's Creamers or got nine.
[00:22:42] And like I turned it in and that that came out, you know, a long time after I turned it in and I, and I remember thinking, you know what, if it's just in that anthology, those whatever 20 pages, that's okay.
[00:22:54] Like that's cool. It's okay if there's no book, but the, but then when that came out I looked at us like you know, I, I made, I was like these pages, I was happy with the pages that ran in there and I thought, you know, I think I could get it together and look at what I have and rearrange the things and,
[00:23:14] and but a couple of the, you know, there are so many hangups with that book. I mean, one was that.
[00:23:23] And I think it was a good, it was a good.
[00:23:29] I, I probably shouldn't even say good. It was the only decision I had with, I, I limited myself to what is was, was written by people in that time.
[00:23:41] And I used different people, they're writing, but I didn't want to put 20, 17 thoughts into the heads of those characters.
[00:23:52] I wanted to go by what they wrote and what they wrote was confusing. We don't really know exactly what a lot of them were thinking.
[00:24:00] So just that decision was odd, but I thought that it was the right one and it helped me figure out how to do that book.
[00:24:10] Because, you know, as a reader, you want like it's like, like, you know, like James Cameron said if Titanic he was like, instead of looking at what he says is like, instead of looking at how characters were different in the past.
[00:24:27] Because I wanted to focus on how they were the same, you know, meaning it would be much more relatable.
[00:24:34] But as I research this thing, it just felt more alienating and different.
[00:24:41] And so, you know, that book reflects that.
[00:24:45] And then also I could, especially near the end of working on that book, I could tell that people wanted people, meaning whenever I would show people the book, they kind of wanted it to,
[00:24:58] to kind of explain like, well, how progressive workplaces at this time, like what were their thoughts about these things and they were so.
[00:25:10] I had no interest in trying to do that.
[00:25:16] And they were so a different and different ways, you know, some things that sound incredibly.
[00:25:26] Not progressive in other ways they work progressive and so there was a mixture of things that's in their writing and I don't you know the whole thing is confusing.
[00:25:36] So the book kind of is a product of the research.
[00:25:45] But I, you know, I stand by spending so much time and I, and I learn.
[00:25:55] I know it's like corny to say but like I kind of like I learned a lot making that book.
[00:26:01] And I really learned a lot making clue doing the clue mini series for IDW.
[00:26:07] So I also still think about things that I kind of picked up doing to end that one.
[00:26:16] I'm curious what this are, I mean for you know, for people who don't know it is it's clue as include the board game and that's that was kind of foundation for it.
[00:26:25] What were those, what were those learnings in that process?
[00:26:30] Well, one I it was done monthly and I wanted to do a monthly like I wanted to kind of know what it would be.
[00:26:42] You know, to be like Steve Dick, I would have to crank out a bunch of pages in a month.
[00:26:50] So so I forced myself and kind of what I learned is if you do you keep if you are operating.
[00:26:59] Just trying to get the pages done, you can come up with a lot of stuff crazy stuff and that's why I think a lot of those.
[00:27:09] You know, you see this.
[00:27:12] Like you'll look at some, you know, what was the giant gorilla comics that Steve Dicko drew? I can't remember.
[00:27:19] Or go or something. I can, you know, one on time up, you know, these are just like crazy images and you're just like, well, he that's kind of draw crazy stuff that you're cranking it out and you're really tapped into something.
[00:27:35] I also have to.
[00:27:37] It feels way weird to say credit because I don't know if he wants the credit but you have time I kind of got that gig through Tom Ceeoli because I had done covers for gobats.
[00:27:49] And so I do W sent me a list of properties like are you interested in any of these and I was like, clue.
[00:27:55] But Tom Ceeoli asked me to do those and I thought that Tom Ceeoli's Transformers or CSGI Joe series was totally incredible and like really really bizarre and fun and it was kind of weirder because it was these properties.
[00:28:12] Like, and I think that clue is like, I don't consider it to be side. I think it's no one's asking you but the,
[00:28:25] I'm happy with that book. Like I feel like it's very me. It's not like a job and it might be even weirder that it is inside of this board game.
[00:28:38] It's also funny just that it that those characters are funny the world is funny.
[00:28:45] But I had to, you know, I had to think like a couple of things were like, I need a scarlet backstory right now because I have to draw it and you're like, well, I guess she's this, you know, she's a serial killer then you just kind of come and stuff thing.
[00:29:00] And then, and then you're like drawing a page you're like, well, this joke isn't really funny but it is a joke that I had, you know, a lot of dealing use paper comics feel like that when you read the collection, you're like, well, that's not like really funny but it is a joke.
[00:29:16] Like they did come up with something that day. So there's a bit of that.
[00:29:21] I often wonder, you know, if if I just lived in a different time and meaning that these kind of jobs were more available. If I could kind of be having the same thing that's in me the same interests.
[00:29:38] But it being channeled into, you know, and all tweakly newspaper strip or whatever or, you know, a monthly mainstream comic or something that it would just be a different form if the, um,
[00:30:07] the, uh, I'm sure, um, you know, an artist is who they are and sometimes sometimes that the form that it takes can still carry the same spirit. Different form same spirit.
[00:30:27] I think it was a comic journal review of Blurie goes into a little bit. He basically asks an open question of whether there was intention behind making this book more accessible than, then some of your other work which again like ironic you know given that you as you said, you know, you did a clue series for, for ID W is that.
[00:30:54] Is that something that you're consciously considering when making something?
[00:31:03] I've been so wrong on this issue that I have stopped trying. Yeah, you know, I, yeah, I've been very wrong on this and, and so, um, you know, Jane, my wife, she's always like,
[00:31:26] just do what you want to do because you never know like it's, I, I end time wrong on other people like or meaning out some book that I'll read.
[00:31:39] I've got a kind of no idea why anyone likes this. It's very popular.
[00:31:44] All I've learned is that there's it's not a, there's no one to one.
[00:31:55] You know, quality to popularity,
[00:32:02] you know, for every thing that you think might be popular that something breaks the rule and you can't guide yourself on.
[00:32:15] Acceptions to rules and, you know, there are things that seem popular that are there are things that don't seem that are there everything in between.
[00:32:30] And I honestly feel like, especially now my job is just what can I, what is exciting enough to me that it will actually power through doing it.
[00:32:48] Because they've actually, they've weirdly gotten harder and taken longer, which is a bummer because I feel like I'm, and cartoons.
[00:33:02] Yeah, and I, you know, other people have they've gotten older have said similar things.
[00:33:10] And, you know, it's a bummer because I feel like I'm better at them now.
[00:33:15] But I've just seen how they go wrong.
[00:33:19] I've had enough, you know, we did the voice recordings for my new movie.
[00:33:26] And I was just so racked with anxiety more than the previous movies, just because I've now done, I've now been doing it for so long that I've seen how all the ways it can go wrong.
[00:33:39] That when when I started I didn't have that feeling and with the book production similarly I've now done so many books that have had mistakes.
[00:33:48] That that when it comes to just like kind of the production around it, I'm like extra.
[00:33:58] I don't know, extra full of like the you know I bottomless, I don't, bottomless was never very popular compared to.
[00:34:13] But it was popular for me, it felt popular for me.
[00:34:18] But I didn't, I don't the first book that I thought I had readers was new school because doctors, I mean not a body world and bottomless group,
[00:34:29] body world was serialized on my website, bottomless, you know, came out a long time after I've been just drawing it and they were just.
[00:34:37] The, the cover is for bottomless for the first.
[00:34:41] Drawings that I did they were like my only idea for the covers state I didn't have you know blurry I worked with Joe Kaskler and we did 10 million different cover ideas.
[00:34:53] I'm exaggerating of course, but you know we batted around for a long time and and we'll talk to the to the editor at New York Review and kind of went to you know bottomless wasn't like that.
[00:35:04] But you know, and new school.
[00:35:08] So that was kind of for some of them and my only thought when I thought I had readers was like oh they liked me doing my things.
[00:35:17] And then when that book came out it kind of seemed like oh no they don't they don't actually.
[00:35:23] I'm very happy with that book but it didn't seem popular.
[00:35:31] But the you know who knows the relationship also between the author and the reader is not.
[00:35:42] It's nothing to pin ones ego on or pin ones career on or it's just it's in a more fist thing that.
[00:35:55] It's yeah I mean it's the you.
[00:36:00] The authors now you bathe is like this blame that they hold in a candle like and I think it's the.
[00:36:09] The tar cops game movie right where he like I think it's.
[00:36:13] The message or something where he's trying to hold the candle in the wind storm that's the authors.
[00:36:21] The listful.
[00:36:24] Now you get there.
[00:36:25] That's obviously there's there's something pure and assuming that there's nobody there is who's going to read it but it's.
[00:36:35] It's not really possible to stay pure and innocent in that way over over a long period of time what's interesting.
[00:36:43] To hear you say though is.
[00:36:47] Again as as you've moved towards more collaborative projects in terms of of movie making you know obviously movies have to be collaborative to a certain extent.
[00:36:59] A big part of collaboration is learning how to trust the people that you've surrounded yourself by and and understand you know remember why you chose those specific people for those specific tasks so it's.
[00:37:14] In a sense it's kind of funny to hear that the two of the places where there's doubt popped up were with the voice acting and in both movies you've got these you know.
[00:37:24] These incredible actors and then sort of the designer the production as you're working with these large publishers who are really good at their jobs but it's.
[00:37:37] I really got to clarify I don't doubt them.
[00:37:42] I doubt me in the you know or like are we doing it correctly it's not it's definitely not that.
[00:37:50] I didn't mean to imply that I that those actors are I was more like I've just can I get what I.
[00:37:59] Yes all it's all me and also just to cut you know to especially when you think about the the reader reaction or is this thing more commercial or not you know movies are a total mine fuck in that.
[00:38:16] I think that's a lot more than a book because you'll do screenings and you're like this one everyone laughed and same movie.
[00:38:26] Screening they all hated it you know and and you're like well what you know whatever you what is this thing that I made you know it that you have to.
[00:38:40] You have to.
[00:38:44] Yeah again it's you have to kind of sort of figure out how to roll with it maybe I'm kind of reading too much into this but is there a sense in which because the these people that you're dealing with are.
[00:39:00] You know such professionals and such so good at their job that some imposter syndrome creeps in for you.
[00:39:07] I had that when I started especially because I hadn't gone to film school.
[00:39:16] But not now I've actually even though I've only I mean I.
[00:39:22] Having made two independent animated movies kind of counts as a lot because there's not many and not anyone makes one but you know now I'm working on my third and I did a series and all this stuff so I don't I don't have that anymore I've been doing it for long enough.
[00:39:37] But I definitely had that when I started but you know something that you kind of figure out is like.
[00:39:47] Okay you're the expert on your thing.
[00:39:52] So and then also.
[00:39:55] Everyone is different some actor wants some actors want a line reading are there ones don't and you don't know until they are there.
[00:40:05] You know a great some actors come in and they they kind of it's they kind of want to do it seven different ways and.
[00:40:19] And you find the character in the editing room and then other people will be like well I know my character my character says it this way.
[00:40:28] And they only they really only give you a couple versions of that one red way.
[00:40:35] And that's what you have.
[00:40:37] And you can that so you know they're just different and kind of you must have there must be lessons there that you took just as far as.
[00:40:49] Craft and trusting yourself and not just trusting the process but being open to different processes in the creation of something and again dealing with these professionals who.
[00:41:01] Have very different approaches but all.
[00:41:05] Deliver a good product at the end of the day.
[00:41:09] Yeah I mean there's a whole section in blurry that is.
[00:41:16] You know the documentary director who's kind of racked with doubt about whether or not to include like a little 20 second.
[00:41:26] Peace in the movie and I've seen that I don't I don't make documentaries but you know Kyle my producer and I've worked with other producers that.
[00:41:34] And I've made documentaries so I've gone to like a lot of those documentary test screenings.
[00:41:41] And with the documentary especially you're shaping truth you're shaping what people perceive to be like the history of an event and so you know.
[00:41:54] And it's edited and it's written and so you can like take out someone's whole life from an important event.
[00:42:03] If it if it is too confusing for the other elements in the 90 minutes that you have.
[00:42:10] So yeah that kind of rolled into.
[00:42:15] And as you're talking about the.
[00:42:18] Documentary film process and and the ways in which it's peripheral to what you do but also parallels some of what you do.
[00:42:29] I'm wondering specifically about the character of Christy and her story.
[00:42:35] How much of yourself you saw in her own sort of professional journey.
[00:42:43] Yeah, you know she make you know she's a not she's a YA author and the book but she doesn't start as a YA author really right.
[00:42:54] But I think I think her half is sort of common or I don't you know I think.
[00:43:02] Maybe even if someone's first book published is one of those YA books they may be injured college wanting thinking about being a different kind of author and then something.
[00:43:15] Kind of draws them to writing in the notebooks.
[00:43:22] Yeah, I have to say you know like in the book like this you have a bunch of characters and I'm supposed to like love them equally or something but after the books come out I after the books come out I like check in on Christy.
[00:43:37] And feel like I'm like did I get that part right and I don't know I have like some kind of extra anxiety around her.
[00:43:43] And it must be because she's an author she makes books too and so it's maybe a little extra personal although the other characters are you know the other characters are personal but there was some like things in particular where I felt like I like broke.
[00:44:03] Some author rule you know like thought like she looks at author photos and author bios and books and those kinds of things that.
[00:44:14] I feel like maybe authors aren't supposed to talk about blurbs you know like.
[00:44:20] Blur it's like if a blurb if a book is where it's usually like you know they were friends or so they have something you know it's like this things that it seems like you're not supposed to say.
[00:44:34] If there's something that you know that it seems like you're not supposed to say that's usually something to put in the book that's it.
[00:44:42] That's specifically so much of that is based on her relationship with this other author.
[00:44:51] Yeah, but yeah I mean and you know there's something kind of funny about because there's so many YA graphic novels you know when I know people who make those in there really good at them.
[00:45:04] And but yeah she and also she's this successful author you know and.
[00:45:10] That feels like something that you know all people have written about but it's.
[00:45:18] Kind of I don't know I just thought I had like ideas for kinds of themes that I thought would be worth doing.
[00:45:27] And she you know and she doesn't know what part of it she doesn't know what book the right and.
[00:45:36] Yeah, I always think you know War Hall War Hall paid someone the the guy who was the producer on the Paul Morrison movies.
[00:45:48] War Hall hired him to tell him what the paint and like the latter.
[00:45:53] Some of his last years and I just find that to be very funny and also interesting and.
[00:46:06] She's looking for some guy then side of herself to tell her you know this is the book idea to do not this other one and that's her doubt.
[00:46:16] That is very relatable. I assume for you because that's something that we keep.
[00:46:22] Coming back to.
[00:46:25] I think largely and and intentionally but I just throughout the.
[00:46:31] The entirety of this conversation the idea of.
[00:46:36] Structure as being.
[00:46:39] A necessary part of the creative process whether it be you know the deadline of doing a daily comic whether it be that period in your life or you got a you know got a job and.
[00:46:53] Had an actual set schedule or if you're working with existing IP in terms of clue.
[00:47:01] It seems like you.
[00:47:05] In a sense thrive when there is there are some constraints.
[00:47:12] Yeah, it's good to kind of know.
[00:47:16] You know, you can break the rules when you are in them but there's something very.
[00:47:23] I'm.
[00:47:26] Helpful about.
[00:47:29] That that you know that.
[00:47:34] The for me my inner guide of whether or not it's a book or cartoon I want to make is it has to seem like something that only I would do and that you know that's a basic one I think most authors would agree with that.
[00:47:50] But then the second one for me is it has to seem like part of it is why would anyone do that.
[00:47:57] It doesn't seem like a good idea.
[00:47:59] You know, so if it's too locatable as if though if the intention of it is too locatable okay it's to be funny it's to be scary.
[00:48:10] It's to be this or that one of those things if that is pinned down then the then the project becomes less interesting because part of it is while I'm drawing it I have to kind of be wondering why.
[00:48:23] Why would I spend so many years on this doubt book you know like what is there in it that is interesting and so.
[00:48:34] That helps power it.
[00:48:38] And cryptos is like that too you know like the it's cryptos is it's not.
[00:48:44] It's not really a parody of Jurassic Park it's sort of a parallel movie it's not really scary it's not really funny it's not really a parody of an action movie the allegory of it doesn't make any sense it's not like a one's one allegory to anything.
[00:49:02] You know it's kind of but it has to be in some kind of in between space where you where it's the same as the four years or however long you know to.
[00:49:16] To being stay interested in it.
[00:49:21] And I think some people will think well that's just being difficult you know why be so confusing but I find that it's more interesting more engaging to be.
[00:49:34] To have that space in it like it's it's more worthwhile or something.
[00:49:39] I mean obviously you've done sure it works but you're drawn to really I mean this is another really long book in terms of comics.
[00:49:48] Well part of that is that I like that kind of manga thing of you know seeing you know that you read it quickly that the scenes are kind of decompress I like that but then I also like.
[00:50:01] When something is inside another thing and you're like okay this could be a little short story but instead it's kind of like like you're you know I like looking at a panel in a comment.
[00:50:16] And maybe more than looking at a painting or like a still and a movie more than a photo that is like an intentional thing and you're like well why is that and then and it's because there's something usually a little like.
[00:50:33] It doesn't have all it have all of the pressure that the.
[00:50:41] Pretentious power that you have to shoot into one thing because it's just part of this other thing that it's just getting the job done to say what's going to happen you know like 1010 is a great example.
[00:50:54] All these doing is communicating what's happening in that one frame but you could take a 1010 panel and blow it up the size of a wall as I've seen in you know museums looks fantastic.
[00:51:08] Great it's got everything it's got depth and drama and if he tried to put all the depth and drama into a single image it may be wouldn't arrive so.
[00:51:20] You know there's like I want me it you like you'll have a little idea and you're like well I could fit it.
[00:51:25] Part of this other thing and would actually be more satisfying that it isn't so.
[00:51:30] Highlighted as its own stand alone.
[00:51:35] Booker comic you know there's parts of blurry that you could take out a 16 page section of something in a subway.
[00:51:42] You could take out and do is a mini comic but I thought it was kind of cool that it's like a little hidden in on the way to this other thing.
[00:51:51] You alluded to this a little bit before but in terms of blurry.
[00:51:56] You know as you said that the two of the guiding factors for you are that nobody else would do this which I completely understand but when referring to this book what is the what is the why would anyone do that aspect of blurry.
[00:52:16] Because I think what I said before that it's not really scratching a funny it or a drama it that it's a bit like an ambient album that's maintaining a tone of doubt.
[00:52:35] I'm sure other people have.
[00:52:39] Dived into doubt in their own ways but I thought that sustaining kind of that.
[00:52:49] Question for so long would be doesn't you know.
[00:52:56] It's not.
[00:52:57] I don't you know I think it's in that gray zone like I was talking about like.
[00:53:08] I don't you know I don't know it's not if that it's not teaching someone anything it's it's.
[00:53:17] Yeah I mean that's part of it is that you can't like articulate why.
[00:53:24] Why someone would do it you know discipline I think that was also part of it that you think that a book about Quakers.
[00:53:32] In that time would be would teach somebody something but that book.
[00:53:37] There's not teach anybody anything.
[00:53:41] And at least not intentionally.
[00:53:44] So you know maybe I.
[00:53:47] Maybe I've got that one but the you know I'm just saying it's like it's good it's a it's got some.
[00:53:58] Some.
[00:54:00] Yeah question mark in it again you know in sort of reading some of the recent interviews and reviews that you've done I.
[00:54:10] Somebody I can't remember who but compared and I think it was blurry to a Kelly right card her latest movie showing up which.
[00:54:22] I think is an interesting and apt comparison from the standpoint that.
[00:54:29] I think what you're getting at to certain extent is almost like a like a feeling and that's what the best art is that's what you know really great movies are that's what she does really well.
[00:54:42] Yeah you know there in some cases there isn't really even a plot it's just you watch this and you have an experience and you.
[00:54:49] You have this sort of difficult to describe feeling around it.
[00:54:59] That's cool you know I'll take it sounds great you know that the um.
[00:55:06] This isn't really related to that but I thought that that movie did.
[00:55:11] The showing up movie did a great job of communicating.
[00:55:15] I mean artists relationship to other artists.
[00:55:20] In a way that I hadn't seen before on screen which is that there.
[00:55:27] That there is competition but they also.
[00:55:32] Love each other that in the the end of that movie.
[00:55:37] She's they we get that they compete but they love each other too and I feel that.
[00:55:45] With my in my world and I thought you know usually in a movie they would either have them.
[00:55:53] Be buddy buddy or like they would choose one they would choose one angle but they they actually coexist.
[00:56:00] And and it's touching that they coexist you know like it's better that that they're taking that these things that would seem to not be able to go together do go together and that.
[00:56:13] You know I love this cartoonist while I'm also trying to you know.
[00:56:20] Make my books and make better books and like we're all kind of pushing each other forward and but it's you know it's a touching cool relationship that.
[00:56:34] I'm grateful.