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[00:00:12] I think for my writing, I am very affected by the weather and I kind of feel a little bit like it's Groundhog Day here. It's just every day is kind of...
[00:00:25] You need something to break up the monotony.
[00:00:28] Yeah, and to know what time in the calendar year, to know where I'm at. I feel like it brings up a lot of memories and nostalgia and just kind of taps me into my emotions in an interesting way.
[00:00:40] Which is harder for me to do here. But I also do love... I've become this person that loves the sun and the nice weather. So it's a weird balance.
[00:00:55] I mean, I travel enough where I'm still getting the seasons elsewhere, but I do miss that grounding feeling of the four seasons.
[00:01:06] Yeah.
[00:01:07] I made kind of the opposite journey. I'm from San Francisco area initially, and I've been out here, as I said, for like close to 20 years at this point. And I, you know, I just moved to my mom's coming to visit.
[00:01:20] And she's freaked out because she assumes that anything north of New York City is basically Buffalo. And since it's October, she's like convinced that it's going to be a blizzard. But I actually still, I still like the snow. I thought that would wear off at a certain point, but I still really, I like it. There's something nice about being cozy inside.
[00:01:43] Yeah, I miss it. I really, I do miss it. But then again, like I said, I like the sun. So I think it's just like, I'm never satisfied kind of an issue here that's going on.
[00:01:55] I think it's probably in a certain sense akin to being a professional musician in that, you know, obviously there are things to not like about it and you've got bad days, but there's a limited number of people that you can actually complain about. Because at the end of the day, you have to accept that you're lucky that you're in the position you're in.
[00:02:17] Yeah, definitely.
[00:02:47] I think like this time of year, October, November, I don't know when this will come out, but it's always the most nostalgic and like emotional for me. I feel I always feel the most tapped into things emotionally at this time of year. And I think I tend to write the most usually around this time.
[00:03:08] And I have found ways to do that living in Los Angeles. Like, I mean, I will say that there are seasons here. And I, I mean, I will say that it does get a little rainier and like colder and gloomy. But, but you know, there's, it's not like I'm from Minnesota. It's not, it's not like blizzard cold kind of a thing. But, but you know, I find ways to tap into it. I do travel a fair amount.
[00:03:35] I like to sometimes go to like, you know, I don't know how familiar you are with Los Angeles, but like there's Big Bear Mountain. I'm like, even like Joshua Tree. Like I'll just sometimes do little, like even one night, two night weekend, little getaways to try and carve out space to write and tap in.
[00:03:54] But I definitely think that like, you know, like the environment that I'm in plays a huge role. And in my, in my writing style, like the time of day, I think I, I tend to write better at night.
[00:04:08] Um, but this is all like, you know, stuff that I say, and then it might all go out the window. It's, it's really hard to predict these things. You know, you can have everything perfect and then just nothing comes.
[00:04:23] And I always say like, I don't know if I'm patient or lazy, but I think like, I know a lot of people that like writers that every day kind of are really regimented of like, I'm going to write every single day.
[00:04:36] And, you know, one out of a hundred songs will be great. And that's just what it is. And I tend to kind of wait until it kind of falls in my lap a little bit. Um, and I think I have actually a higher success rate doing it that way, but it doesn't, but I'm not coming up with as many ideas. Um, and I don't know if I'm working the muscle maybe as much as I'd like to be. Um, but it goes through phases. You know, this has probably been the last couple of years that I felt this way.
[00:05:05] I mean, I went to music college and when I was in school, it was like every single day I was writing. I mean, I kind of had to be.
[00:05:13] You had to.
[00:05:14] Yeah. So it, it fluctuates, but I think for the most part, I'm kind of like when it, when it strikes me, that's, that's the moment that I pick it up because I want to. And, and, uh, and the good songs are the ones that kind of demand that from you, at least in my experience. So, yeah.
[00:05:32] Yeah. It seems that like this particular set of songs or this particular song cycle.
[00:05:39] You was, is very much influenced by, by your life and what you've been living through recently. Once you,
[00:05:48] you know, once you've kind of honed in on that at that point, is it easier to start writing when you've got sort of like a rough idea of the kinds of songs you want to write?
[00:05:58] Yeah, it is. I think it's, um, especially for me, especially now in like the world we're living in where there just seems to be such, uh, like oversaturation or just so much extensive option.
[00:06:17] Like there's so many options, you know, I could make a song that sounds so many different ways in my home studio.
[00:06:24] Where do I put the music out? What's, you know, I have access to anything and everything at my fingertips.
[00:06:30] And that is very overwhelming to me and can be very paralyzing.
[00:06:36] I think it's very helpful to have limitations. Um, and even if they're just self self-made limitations, you put on, you know, you put in your own project in your own system.
[00:06:47] Um, and for me with this record, I had probably seven or eight songs and was listening through and realized there was a through line and that everything was kind of about the same thing from a different angle.
[00:06:58] So at that point it was like, okay, this is the story I'm going to tell what I'm missing.
[00:07:03] What are the emotions and the, and the, and the parts of the story that I think are important to tell that I haven't yet.
[00:07:08] And that like really helped me get over the finish line. Um, and if I'm, to be honest, if I'm not able to like have some sort of sense of what the messages or what the theme is or what the approach is, it's really hard.
[00:07:23] It's like having a deadline. If there's no deadline, you're never finished. Um, which is also why I think it's helpful to have a producer or a collaborator because people can kind of be the ones to be like, I think like this is finished.
[00:07:36] Um, but for me, like having the, the, the narrative in this record was extremely helpful because it, otherwise I don't think I would have really been able to zoom out and like see what was missing.
[00:07:48] You know, you know, the thing that I would liken it to, I've never put out a, uh, an album before, but the, the thing I would like in that sort of discovery too, is it's almost like a breakthrough in therapy, right?
[00:08:00] This like very obvious thing has been sitting in front of you the entire time, but you need a little distance to realize that, Oh, you know, everything I've been writing is kind of, you know, circling the same idea.
[00:08:14] Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I mean, having space is a good thing. Um, I remember with these songs, I had a bunch of ideas. I was actually, and then I went on tour and I was in the, uh, where was I in Germany with a good friend of mine.
[00:08:28] We were doing like a co headline thing and he was like, play me, you know, I know you're kind of trying to put an album together. Why don't you just play me the songs? We've got like a seven hour drive.
[00:08:38] So we just threw them after I gave probably a hundred disclaimers and, uh,
[00:08:45] I mean, that's gotta be like pretty uncomfortable, right? Just sitting there on a car ride, listening to your own music.
[00:08:51] Yeah. And there's nowhere to escape.
[00:08:53] Unfinished music.
[00:08:53] Yeah.
[00:08:54] Unfinished music that I've just like thrown together in various stages. And this is a friend who's a musician. So, and I, you know, really respect their work and, you know, and we're in a car and there's no, there's no distraction whatsoever. So, um, all we had was time. Uh, but, but we, you know, we, we listened through and he was kind of like, I, I think you really have great, like song seeds here,
[00:09:20] but you're kind of just vamping on the same idea over and over. And it was kind of true. Like I had a great idea and a great kind of whatever it might be, a melody, a lyric, but I just was kind of like repeating things.
[00:09:35] And he was kind of like, he gave me a suggestion, which was to get home and turn off my computer and just sit at the piano or pick up an acoustic guitar and just finish the song. Like I know a lot of musicians struggle with this, but like I, I have a studio space that I work in. And if I have a really good idea, I get really excited. So then I go straight to recording it. I'm like, Oh, this is so cool. This could be like,
[00:10:05] this, or this could be like that. And I want to capture this like initial spark. Then you start recording it. And then like four hours go by and you're like getting like a drum sample sound. And you're like so deep in the weeds of it, that the song is not even finished. Um, and so it, it is really, I think sometimes I avoid like sitting down just with the guitar or piano because it's actually kind of hard work, like sitting down and actually trying to write a thing.
[00:10:34] Once it breaks open, it's, that's that fun thing that happens. And it's like this, like out of body, like what is happening? The song is just pouring through me, but it doesn't happen often. And so everything around that's not that enjoyable for me. So I avoid that, but he kind of suggested just get home and don't turn anything on like, and just sit and play.
[00:10:53] Okay. So I did that and bagged a couple ideas, brought a couple brand new ones in. I borrowed one of his guitars, which was a baritone guitar that I would never normally play. But that really helps me get out of like a groove. Like if I'm, or get into a groove, get out of repeating the same kind of ideas over and over.
[00:11:14] Um, you know, I'm, I'm, I mainly play the piano. You can't detune a piano. So I'll oftentimes, I mean, you could, you couldn't necessarily want to.
[00:11:26] Yeah. And it wouldn't get too far from, you know, it would just be out of, out of, you know, it would just need to be tuned. It wouldn't be, you know, at least on a guitar, I can like really, there are endless options with how I tune it.
[00:11:38] And I don't know the theory of a guitar. I mean, I know that like the standard tunings, but I can just follow my ear and have no idea what I'm doing and just follow my, you know, my intuition with my ear.
[00:11:51] With the, with the piano, I tend to fall into the same shapes. I do that on the guitar as well, but at least if I have a different tuning, the different shapes are going to give me different, different sounds, different chords.
[00:12:00] So playing that baritone guitar opened me up. I wrote like two songs on that. Um, but kind of like to get back to your initial question, like,
[00:12:09] having the zoomed out thing of like, this is the story I want to tell was so helpful for me and like gave me such relief because I was like, okay, this is totally doable. Now I know where I want the story to end and I live through the whole thing. So I just have to decide what's, what's missing here, you know? And then it was just kind of like jigsawing it together. Really?
[00:12:29] You're a classically trained musician. You went to Berkeley, you know, I assume that means that, uh, that entails all the theory and everything else. And it sounds like in a weird, maybe funny kind of way that, that knowing the theory was almost a hindrance to your ability to kind of break out of whatever rut you were stuck in.
[00:12:56] Yeah. And I, I, I don't know if I'm, I know you talked to a lot of musicians and I don't think I'm the only one here, but for, for me, it's sometimes thinking most of the time thinking is not helpful when I'm writing. Um, um, and so trying to analyze what I'm doing, it's like, you have to know the rules to break them.
[00:13:22] I mean, when I first got to Berkeley, I was so overwhelmed because a, I can barely read music. So I felt terrible because I'm in these classes, my pro you have to pick a primary instrument piano. I stupidly picked piano, which I mean, I should have picked voice or something. Cause it's a little more like, you know, subjective or something, but piano, it's like, can you, can you play the piece or can't you? And I, and I was, you know, I can't, I can't sit down and play a jazz standard or
[00:13:51] read notated music. Like most of the piano players can there. So I just felt so bad. And it took about a year and a half, I think for me to like, get further into the songwriting major and start to realize that that was my strength and be around teachers that were like, you don't need to be able to do that. You're right. Your, your, your strength is writing songs.
[00:14:15] I was like, focus on that. Focus on just the storytelling. And, um, then I was like, okay, cool. I don't need to be trying to be learning what kind of a, whatever mixolydian scale. What, what am I, what chords am I borrowing from that? It's, it's like, so not a helpful way to be able to write a song. Um, in my, in my experience, I just get so caught up in like overthinking it.
[00:14:41] Um, so it's, it's also a strange thing to study songwriting. I mean, I think what made me better as a writer being at Berkeley was committing to writing, um, being in an environment where people told me it wasn't crazy to try and do this for a living. Like people saying you, you, you can make, you can make a living and you can do this. And there's no reason that you shouldn't. In fact, you should.
[00:15:09] Um, it's not, it's not, it's not crazy though. It is, it is an objectively crazy thing to do with your life.
[00:15:16] It is crazy. And it's really fucking hard. It's really fucking hard. I mean, it's, it's also, I guess, I guess the difference was, I wasn't being, um, I wasn't being like suggest, it wasn't being suggested to me to have a backup plan, which I actually do appreciate.
[00:15:37] Um, this is a really hard, really hard career and it's extremely demanding. But I think that growing up, uh, it was always, I mean, I was always playing music. I was always writing, but it was, it was always like, what are you, what are you going to actually do with your life?
[00:15:55] Um, and so I think I always knew this would be hard. And I also felt like there's no alternative really for me. Like, I know that this is what I'm, what I'm going to do with my life.
[00:16:08] But to kind of remove that, like, what else are you going to do? Question was really nice. And then of course, just being around players that were better than me really freed me up actually as a writer, because I felt like I didn't have to do as much and I didn't have to play as much.
[00:16:30] And I could just, I didn't have to work as hard, which is kind of nice. And I think one of the best things about good songwriting is the space and the silence in between the words and in between the chords.
[00:16:44] And I think that playing with players that were better than me allowed me to relax a little bit and not feel like I had to be constantly filling the space, you know?
[00:16:53] Berklee's a very prestigious music school. You know, it sounds like, um, at least in terms of kind of the more, uh, formal processes that you were, you were struggling a little bit that, you know, that you were struggling, as you said, with some of the theory as a, as a piano player.
[00:17:09] And I'm, I'm always kind of curious, like, what's your sense of how you got in? You know, what, what, what's your sense of what your strengths were at the time?
[00:17:20] Well, I, I, I auditioned with the original song that I wrote. I.
[00:17:27] So you got in as a songwriter essentially.
[00:17:30] Yeah. Yeah, I did. I think, you know, but you get around other players that are so good and you're like, why did I, why did I get in? Like, this isn't like, because especially when there's other songwriters that also can play.
[00:17:41] I mean, I can play really well, you know, I mean, I guess I can play well, but I can't, but it's just, it's my own way of playing. And I think you kind of get imposter syndrome when you're, I mean, I still get in all the time.
[00:17:53] Like it doesn't go away. I'm sorry to tell you.
[00:17:56] Yeah. Yeah. It's constant. I'm like, I'm a, I'm totally a fraud and everybody either knows it or is going to find out.
[00:18:04] Um, honestly, that's the hardest thing I think about like doing this is like, I mean, and maybe, maybe this is kind of like, this is an anything career, but it's just like you're, you're pinned up against other people all the time.
[00:18:19] And it's, it's so much of like that stuff that is the hard work. It's not really like, you know, the admin or playing the gigs, you know? Um, it's, it's like the inner voice kind of stuff. Um, but I will say with Berkeley getting in, I told myself, I did a year at the university of Minnesota.
[00:18:41] And then I transferred to, to Berkeley and I told myself that I wasn't going to go to Berkeley. I was just going to audition to see if I would get in, um, kind of as a way to be like, yeah, I don't, you know, if they, if they, you know, if they don't, if they don't accept me, I don't care anyway. I wasn't going to go.
[00:19:01] They need me more than I need them.
[00:19:03] Exactly. It's just, it was just a way for me to, you know, lower the stakes. Um, but I remember in the audition, they said, can you play, um,
[00:19:12] I think they said like, do you know, like music theory? And I said, no, I don't know anything. And they were like, okay, that's really, they're like, that's fine. Like we're, that's, that's okay. You don't have to, like, that's also what we, we like teach you that you don't have to know that now.
[00:19:28] And I was like really kind of just going on about how little I knew. And they said, well, can you play a C major scale? And I was like, oh, I can do that. That's so, okay. If that's the level we're at.
[00:19:39] So I think I was just talking myself down and I did know some theory. I just felt so intimidated by the whole, you know, like I was just so, there was no world in which I would get accepted. Like that was, that was where I was coming from. Yeah.
[00:19:54] It sounds like you were projecting more on it and that it was more important than maybe you were telling yourself it was because you were, you were giving yourself an out and you were giving yourself excuses.
[00:20:09] Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, the things that we do to convince ourselves of, yeah. So, but I, I mean, even when I did get in, it was a very long like deliberation.
[00:20:20] Um, I was hesitant because I also was in a band back in Minneapolis and that was a whole thing of like, do I want to leave the band? I mean, ultimately it was, I know a lot of like Berkeley alums, like leave or drop out and talk shit about it. But I actually really had an amazing experience at Berkeley.
[00:20:37] I just think it, it really helped me feel like a songwriter and artist and commit to doing this with my life. Um, so of course there are things about, about school and college that you're like, didn't love that, but I met amazing people and I think I, I got better. So.
[00:20:57] Do you find that generally, you know, when it comes to imposter syndrome and when, when it comes to you really getting stuck on the things that you don't know that that makes it difficult for you to put yourself out there?
[00:21:11] Oh God. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. It's, it's hard at the same time. I think that when I write something that I feel that feeling from, which is like the best feeling in the world when you write a song and there's just this, like that, like that, that is something. And I'm so excited by that idea. The best feeling when that happens, you know, people will ask me, especially with this record, which is very,
[00:21:42] very personal and vulnerable. Like how did you decide to, to come out with this? Like, this is so much da da da. Honestly, I didn't really ever think about it. It was just kind of like, well, this is a song that's really fucking good. I almost felt like I didn't write it. Like, it just kind of feels like this, it just comes down and then you are the messenger. And I'm like, well, I never even think should I, shouldn't I? It's just like, well, that has to, that's just now that's what it is. I'm the decision.
[00:22:12] It wasn't made for me. Like, for me, I, this, the decision was made for me. I had no say in the decision kind of a thing. Um, but of course, then I start playing these songs and I'm like, oh shit, this is kind of personal. You know, what have I done? Um, in terms of like when you're actually playing them in front of people?
[00:22:32] Yeah. I think when I first started playing before the single started coming out with this album, before there was kind of like a PR campaign, kind of telling the story a little bit, I was starting to play these songs. And so I felt like, I think the backstory is, is helpful.
[00:22:52] But you know, sometimes I'm playing in rooms that I don't think there are a lot. And I don't feel like there are a lot of people that probably has had this experience that I've had, or I play in Germany and Austria a lot. And there's like a language barrier. And I'm like, okay, I don't know if I say top surgery. I don't think anybody here is probably going to understand what I'm talking about.
[00:23:15] So then it's like, how much do I really want to handhold? Is this that critical, um, for people to, to know, but I, I, I feel like I want people to understand. And I think that's kind of the whole point of the whole thing is to, to have people understand. So I've found myself maybe over explaining, but if people, if people don't seem to know, I want them to, I want them to know.
[00:23:44] And yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:46] Well, you know, it's funny because obviously to a certain extent, you know, I would assume that the people who come out to your shows, I mean, it's a bit of a self-selecting crowd anyway. And, you know, and you're going out of your way, you know, I know that like, I was looking at the promotion you were doing with the record release shows and like, you're going out of your way to invite other like, you know, queer artists on there.
[00:24:08] So I have to imagine that like, there are a lot of people who have either had that experience or at very least like kind of know what you're going through to a certain extent.
[00:24:21] I think so, but there are also a lot of experiences where that's not the case. Like if I'm doing a house show in Bavaria, like no, and I do those, like that's not maybe going to be, but the thing is, is like, you also could argue that those are the, those are the reason, like it's even more important in those environments to say these things.
[00:24:43] Cause you just never know.
[00:24:45] Um, so I, I really kind of feel like the messenger and I feel like, uh, I am, uh, I'm kind of like the messenger in, in this, in this story.
[00:25:03] I know that my story is only mine, but this is something that, um, that the overarching themes, I know there, there are a lot of people that can relate.
[00:25:13] And, um, and I, I think that's part of the kind of the job title for me of like the music that I write and feeling like I'm writing my own story.
[00:25:25] And so the stories should be shared.
[00:25:26] For good reason.
[00:25:28] Most of the stories that revolve around this, this kind of thing are like, are, are tragic, but your story isn't a tragic story.
[00:25:36] And it sounds like it's a story of someone who figured out who they are and ultimately like it's, listen, it's a life altering decision, but you now recognize that you made the right one.
[00:25:49] Yeah.
[00:25:50] Yeah.
[00:25:50] I also think that there's something like, it's, it's not, uh, a tragedy.
[00:25:56] It's not, um, it's actually life affirming and the, and I don't feel like my experience ultimately like was, was too far from like a lot of themes that people go through in their life in different ways.
[00:26:13] I think that this is my story.
[00:26:16] Um, it, you know, it may in certain ways resonate with some people more than others, but a lot of the themes on this record, I think do resonate with people outside of just the queer trans community.
[00:26:29] I also think that like, I really wanted to make a point to focus on the process as opposed to like after the surgery, you know, like to me, you know, the final moment of this record is really like me getting wheeled into, into surgery.
[00:26:46] It's called the final tracks called anesthesia.
[00:26:48] And I, I didn't want there to be any inkling as to what that next chapter or moment would be like, because really to me, I think like this story wasn't about that part of it.
[00:27:00] You know, it was about getting up to that point.
[00:27:03] Um, and of course, like also there are, there are people that have been like, so now how do you feel?
[00:27:07] You must be feeling like everything must be amazing.
[00:27:10] And it's like, there's still a lot of shit, you know, there's still a lot of shit and I'm still like figuring so much out.
[00:27:16] But I think that like, there's also maybe not enough conversation around like the, like in between or the uncertainty or like the process.
[00:27:27] I think especially in like the trans community, it's like you transition and then you're this way.
[00:27:34] It's like this binary of like, you know, or like there's like the dead name and then the new name and then this and that.
[00:27:39] And I actually find it very interesting to like, kind of talk about and focus on and, and sit in the confusing process of it all.
[00:27:49] And I really wanted this record to like sit in that space, you know.
[00:27:54] Anytime you make a big decision, like again, in my life, it was like, yeah, living in the city for 20 years and then deciding, hey, I'm going to, you know, like just move into nature.
[00:28:04] Like, even if every sign is pointing to it being the right decision, if you're somebody, and I suspect you are like me, somebody who lives in your own head.
[00:28:19] You're going to, you're going to second guess it up till the point that it happens and probably, you know, from even, even afterwards, like it's kind of inevitable.
[00:28:30] Mm-hmm.
[00:28:31] Mm-hmm.
[00:28:31] And I think that I, I like to, in my writing, like talk through that uncertainty.
[00:28:41] A lot of my songs are like, maybe this, maybe that.
[00:28:45] I mean, like literally the lyrics, it's a lot of maybes in there.
[00:28:48] And I think that there's like something really interesting in that part of the decision making.
[00:28:55] And, and, and sometimes the maybes actually are, they're actually yeses or nos and you know it, but you're just, you're not at a point to be able to accept that yet.
[00:29:07] I mean, like the first song on this record is called The Truth.
[00:29:10] And, you know, there's a line that's basically like, the truth is I don't mean it, but I'm fine.
[00:29:15] Like, it's just kind of this thing of like putting on a front or, or making yourself, it's like me saying, oh, I don't even care if I get into Berkeley.
[00:29:24] It's like, I don't, I'm fine.
[00:29:27] Uh, either way, like, you know, you can.
[00:29:30] You're shielding yourself from potential.
[00:29:32] Exactly.
[00:29:32] Failure.
[00:29:32] Exactly.
[00:29:33] Exactly.
[00:29:34] And, and harm.
[00:29:35] And I think that like, that is, that was a lot of this story was me trying to tell myself or tell other people things.
[00:29:44] And at part, parts of the story, uh, I believed myself and parts of the story I didn't, you know, but, uh, it was kind of a windy road, honestly.
[00:29:55] Um, but it's always changing and, and I, I do for the most part now, I feel like I've done a huge thing for myself.
[00:30:05] And every single day I wake up and I feel so, um, grateful for the courage, the strength that I had and, and the people around me that offer me so much support in this, in this, you know, decision.
[00:30:22] I also am so grateful for the body that I have, that I chose to have, um, and everything that it took for me to get to that.
[00:30:31] Um, that's not ever, I don't think going to go away.
[00:30:34] I really don't.
[00:30:35] And that's an amazing thing.
[00:30:36] Every single day to have that feeling is amazing.
[00:30:38] That being said, there's still like stuff that I'm like, I don't feel like I've arrived.
[00:30:42] You know, it's not like everything's now peachy, peachy fine.
[00:30:47] Like, you know, but that's, that's the next record.
[00:30:50] But, you know, it's like, that's, that's also, that's part of life.
[00:30:54] You know, that's why I'm never going to run out of songs to write.
[00:30:59] It is funny that people view something like that as being a binary.
[00:31:05] People who should know better, right?
[00:31:07] People who should know that these sorts of things aren't binary.
[00:31:09] But that obviously, like, even, you know, even if you make the best decision in your life, like, you're still carrying all the other shit that you're dealing with and everything else you were dealing with day to day.
[00:31:19] Like, that doesn't suddenly go away because you've addressed this one part of your life.
[00:31:25] Right.
[00:31:25] Yeah.
[00:31:26] There's always stuff.
[00:31:28] I mean, but there are things that are heavier than other things.
[00:31:32] And this was a huge weight for a very, very long time that I wasn't ready to, to face or carry or talk about or tell people about.
[00:31:42] And this is all kind of, you know, this is one step at a time kind of a thing, you know?
[00:31:48] Was it shame or what, what, what was the fear of talking about this?
[00:31:53] I think there was shame.
[00:31:54] I think there was also a really, really big fear of being misunderstood of people, of people thinking like, like, it's almost like I want to be the one to have the time and space to figure these things out about myself without other people making assumptions.
[00:32:25] Or jumping to conclusions about me.
[00:32:28] And I kind of felt like if I even mention that this is something I'm considering, people are going to be 20 steps ahead thinking, okay, well, when is Sarah transitioning?
[00:32:40] When is this happening?
[00:32:41] When is that happening?
[00:32:42] And I, I just felt like I needed to know everything before I even talked to anybody about anything I was considering.
[00:32:50] And that's like such a weight to carry when, you know, you don't know where you want to arrive.
[00:32:59] And I still don't really know where I want to arrive.
[00:33:03] And, but I just think it's this fear of like being judged or misunderstood and what people think of you.
[00:33:11] I mean, that's like the most basic thing.
[00:33:12] And it sounds kind of like, you know, I want to sit here and be like, I don't give a shit what anybody thinks of me.
[00:33:17] But like, that's not true.
[00:33:18] You know, I, I, I think maybe I care a little less than I did a year ago.
[00:33:23] I mean, even the fact that I'm talking about this surgery, I told myself, I'm going to get this surgery and I'm not going to talk about it.
[00:33:31] That's what I told myself initially.
[00:33:32] I was like, I'm going to do this.
[00:33:33] Nobody has to know.
[00:33:34] And no one's probably even, even going to know, you know, like I'm getting this for me.
[00:33:38] So it doesn't matter what other people.
[00:33:40] It doesn't matter.
[00:33:41] I'm not doing this for anybody else.
[00:33:42] So why would I need to share it?
[00:33:44] I don't owe anybody.
[00:33:45] What changed?
[00:33:47] I think that I started, I, I, what did change?
[00:33:52] I think that I felt like, I think I remembered how desperate I was to see other people talk about their experience before I got my surgery.
[00:34:07] I mean, I was like looking for anyone I knew that had gotten top surgery and would talk about it.
[00:34:15] And after the fact, I was like, man, that really was something that I needed.
[00:34:20] So there's a lot that I can offer by just talking about my experience of this.
[00:34:27] It doesn't need to be everyone's experience.
[00:34:28] It can be my, my own.
[00:34:30] And I can say that I still don't know everything, but this is at least what I know for certain up to this point, what I've gone through and how I felt.
[00:34:38] Not to mention I had a record.
[00:34:39] So I was like, okay, well, I, I've got these 10 songs, you know, and this feels like a pretty like, you know, important like body of work to record.
[00:34:49] But if I record it, then I'm screwed.
[00:34:50] I gotta, I gotta release it.
[00:34:52] Um, but I think that the more I started to like share it, the more I realized how much people were supportive and receptive.
[00:34:59] And like, that was something that I desperately needed.
[00:35:03] And if I'm not willing to share, then I'm not giving people the opportunity to be able to show up for me.
[00:35:10] And so I think when I started to like, let that happen, I realized how desperately I needed it.
[00:35:16] You know,
[00:35:16] Does seeing somebody like Elliot Page in the world, does that move the needle for you?
[00:35:20] It does.
[00:35:21] That was just so long.
[00:35:22] Like that was so long ago.
[00:35:24] I feel like that they,
[00:35:25] I guess, I mean, yes and no.
[00:35:28] Right.
[00:35:28] I mean, in terms of like being, you know, really open about it, it's still now.
[00:35:34] Yes.
[00:35:34] Yes.
[00:35:35] No.
[00:35:35] And it's amazing.
[00:35:36] It's amazing.
[00:35:36] And that's like huge.
[00:35:38] I think I'm, I'm yes is, is the answer.
[00:35:42] But I think that like, when I talked about like looking for people, it was like people in my world that I knew.
[00:35:48] People that, um, like that I knew personally that.
[00:35:52] Like those were like stories and like people that were documenting like the process of like, this was my recovery.
[00:35:59] I was like, okay, wow.
[00:36:01] So they got through it.
[00:36:02] So like if they, if they, okay.
[00:36:04] So they said it was two weeks.
[00:36:05] Okay.
[00:36:05] If they can do it, then like, you know, stuff like that.
[00:36:08] And just like seeing the journey, like more up close in that way was like really, really helpful.
[00:36:13] It's surgery.
[00:36:14] I mean, it is surgery and surgery is, is scary.
[00:36:17] And there's a healing process like, like, uh, divorced of all of these other big ideas in the world.
[00:36:23] Like surgery is just a scary thing.
[00:36:26] I know.
[00:36:27] Especially for me.
[00:36:27] I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I like dare you to find someone that hates medical stuff more than I do.
[00:36:33] I mean, I, I like, I mean, I have like such bad white coat syndrome.
[00:36:36] I go into just like, you know, just whatever, get like, you know, talk about my vitamin B deficiency and I almost pass out.
[00:36:45] I just hate the doctor.
[00:36:46] So, uh, you know, that, that really was not an enjoyable part of the process either, but it was obviously unavoidable.
[00:36:55] And also I just want to like say to like finding the right doctor.
[00:37:00] I mean, it's like anything.
[00:37:01] It's like the logistics of anything is like, that's stressful enough.
[00:37:08] Like let's, you know, I get to the point of being like, okay, I am going to do this.
[00:37:13] And then I have to like find insurance.
[00:37:15] I have to find, well, I had insurance, but I have to find like a way that this isn't going to totally put me in tens of thousands of debt.
[00:37:23] But I have to like, I went to one doctor that was, I mean, I felt like I was like, like, I felt like my body was like a used car.
[00:37:35] And I was like going to like a car salesman.
[00:37:37] It was just like terrible.
[00:37:38] It was like, all right, flip through the pamphlet and just let us know what you want.
[00:37:42] And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[00:37:43] This is like not.
[00:37:45] So that almost totally derailed me from even getting it.
[00:37:48] I was like, all right, you know, I just went back in the car afterwards with my wife, like bawling.
[00:37:52] I'm like, forget it.
[00:37:52] Like this is not, if this is what this is, I don't, I don't, I can't endure this.
[00:37:57] And I ended up finding, I went to one more doctor and found an incredible surgeon.
[00:38:02] But like, there are just so many things in the way.
[00:38:05] And so like finding people in my network that would even be like, okay, this is the doctor I went to.
[00:38:12] Can't recommend them enough, you know, or like this is a huge, like a really great pillow to get after the surgery.
[00:38:18] Like stuff like that.
[00:38:19] I was just like, this so desperate for any kind of advice from anybody, you know.
[00:38:26] So that was, that was like a huge motivator for me to tell my story.
[00:38:29] The reason why, you know, bring up Elliot Page specifically is because there just aren't like, there aren't that many public examples.
[00:38:39] You know, we, you know, obviously like people have been talking about, you know, for better or for worse, people have been having these conversations.
[00:38:47] Um, but generally when people talk about transitioning, it tends to be in one direction.
[00:38:55] And I'm, I just, this is a big, huge question and probably one you can't answer.
[00:39:00] But like, what, what's your sense of like why the specific journey that you've gone through isn't discussed nearly as much as the other side?
[00:39:13] Well, I think that there's like a lot of joy in the other side.
[00:39:18] And so I think that there's a lot of focus on like trans joy of being in a body that you feel aligns with, you know, how you've always felt about yourself.
[00:39:31] And that's not to be, you know, discredited or, or, you know, like, I don't want that light to go out at all.
[00:39:39] I think that's very important too.
[00:39:41] And that's also something that makes people very uncomfortable.
[00:39:43] Um, and people don't, you know, a lot of people don't want to see that, but I think that there may be more focus on that than the process itself.
[00:39:56] I also would probably, I mean, I'd like to think that there are a lot of people out there that are talking about this, but maybe it's just not from like the mainstream masses.
[00:40:10] A lot of light is, is put on it.
[00:40:14] Um, but I think that like people get through this and then they don't really want to talk about it.
[00:40:19] It's a really like not a very pleasant time, you know?
[00:40:22] And I think that like when you're, when you're past it, it's much more enjoyable to focus on feeling better about yourself than like sitting in this confusing, messy, shameful part.
[00:40:39] Um, but.
[00:40:40] I mean, you've sort of like, in a sense, you've kind of doomed yourself to.
[00:40:43] Yeah, right.
[00:40:44] As long as you're promoting this album specifically, like, you know, and this is the case with any, any creative thing.
[00:40:51] Well, certainly any piece of music, like you're going to be playing these songs over and over again and you're going to kind of be, um, processing these feelings like night in, night out to a certain extent.
[00:41:05] Yeah, but there is, there, there is hope at the end of this record.
[00:41:10] And I think that there's beauty and hope in even like the parts of the record that feel really, really like difficult.
[00:41:17] Um, I also, I, I think that like this, this part of like the process for people, I think is the part that is, has the ability to really push people to do what they want to do the most.
[00:41:38] As opposed to like, like, like, like being able to capture the whole process of like beginning to tell somebody something that you're really, really feeling shameful about.
[00:41:50] And then seeing how that can transform into your own, um, self worth and confidence and, um, kind of like reclamation in a way.
[00:42:04] And I, I think that like, if people can sit down and like, listen to this record, I hope that they might be able to like, see that, that process, if they start it, it's like a domino effect.
[00:42:18] And it really, at least for, for me, it really was like, I tell one person and then I feel so supported.
[00:42:27] Like, of course, you know, you tell people that you, you are close with and that you feel like you're safe with, but like that support was something, like I said, I really did not know how desperately I needed to be held.
[00:42:41] And so when you start to like, share something that's really, really vulnerable, and then you feel that sense of love and support, like it, it just pushes you forward in a way that you maybe wouldn't have been able to do if you had, had you not taken that first step.
[00:42:58] So I, I really hope that people can like, hear and see that throughout this record of like, this tiny little moment that kind of snowballs into something much, much greater that, you know, changed my life.
[00:43:12] Yeah. I mean, in a certain sense, it, it must even be harder though, to tell the people that you are really close to, to, you know, that you, I mean, especially with your partner, you know, of, of just like, Hey, I don't, you know, I'm, maybe I'm not exactly who I thought I was.
[00:43:28] And like, we need to have a conversation about whether you're still okay with that.
[00:43:36] Yeah, that was the hardest that, that and my parents, those were the hardest ones, but my wife was the first person I, I brought this up to.
[00:43:45] So I think that, you know, just the fact that these words had never even come out of my mouth.
[00:43:50] I mean, I like literally hearing it out loud was just like the most out of body experience.
[00:43:55] Um, but there's like a fear of like, they'll never see me the same way.
[00:44:00] They won't love me the same way.
[00:44:01] Um, this isn't what they signed up for.
[00:44:05] There's a lot, there's a lot to it.
[00:44:07] Um, but like, uh, I, I can't like, I can't imagine what it would have been like if, I mean, I, I think it was like, there was no more waiting.
[00:44:25] I think I had to, I had to share it.
[00:44:28] It was like, I was writing songs about this and like not sharing them with anyone, not playing them.
[00:44:34] And I wasn't even consciously writing about this.
[00:44:36] I just would like, the words would just kind of like get seeped into like kind of random ideas.
[00:44:43] I had of just like, I don't feel good in my body, my body.
[00:44:45] And it's just like, at some point you just, you can't live like that anymore.
[00:44:50] You just have to let somebody in.
[00:44:53] Um, so I, every single person I told, I felt about 20 pounds lighter, honestly.
[00:45:00] And then I got to a point where I started to actually get so excited to share this with people because I felt like my friendships and my relationship to my partner and my parents got so much stronger.
[00:45:12] It was like the greatest gift, um, to share this with someone because I was letting them in, in a way that they wanted to be able to have, like I said, they wanted to be able to have the opportunity to show up for me in that way.
[00:45:28] And, uh, I feel like so close to so many of my friends in a different way than I probably would have if this hadn't happened.
[00:45:38] You know?
[00:45:38] It must not have felt quick, but in hindsight, how quickly you go from feeling like you can't tell the person, you know, you're, who you're married to, to like, oh, you know, here's, here's a picture of me with, uh, with my shirt off on Instagram, you know, for like, for random fans on the internet.
[00:45:57] Like, it seems like once you, once the seal was broken, like you went for it.
[00:46:02] Yeah.
[00:46:03] Yeah.
[00:46:04] I did.
[00:46:04] I did.
[00:46:05] I, I, uh, you know, it, it didn't feel quick, I will say.
[00:46:11] Um, but, but it's like anything then when you, when you start to like get sort of to the other side of anything, it's like the, the difficult time kind of just feels like it was just a second.
[00:46:27] Um, so I'm glad that that's kind of my takeaway now, but I know that in the middle of it, it didn't feel quick.
[00:46:33] Um, yeah.
[00:46:35] When you think about the fact that it's a continued journey, but that, you know, like we were saying, you don't do this one thing, it doesn't fix everything.
[00:46:45] And that, you know, through, for the rest of your life, like there are things that you're going to be figuring out and you're going to be continuing to evolve.
[00:46:53] And, and I wonder if that, if there's a way in which that's kind of a hopeful thing, knowing that maybe this is a journey that you never get quite to the end of.
[00:47:05] It is, it's hopeful in that like, I feel like I will always have things to, to write about and things to reflect on.
[00:47:16] I also, I really find the most strength in being vulnerable and like sharing your uncertainties and insecurities.
[00:47:31] And, um, and I've also found that that's, like I said, like the greatest gift of like having meaningful relationships in my life.
[00:47:40] And so I feel lucky that I get to do this for a living because it forces me to constantly be reflecting on my experience.
[00:47:51] Um, although it sometimes can be, uh, exhausting.
[00:47:56] Um, it, it does like allow me to always feel like I'm striving to like grow as a person, learn more about myself and strengthen my relationships with people around me.
[00:48:10] Um, it gives me hope in that way.
[00:48:14] Um, and it also, it's, it's interesting to be able to reflect on songs and, and moments in my life through, through my songs and find different ways to relate to them.
[00:48:30] Even now it's been a year and a half, I think, or maybe, yeah, a little, no, I don't know, two years.
[00:48:37] I can't even remember, two years since my surgery.
[00:48:39] And now I'm playing these songs.
[00:48:41] I'm in a very different place.
[00:48:42] It's easy to step back into the mindset of when I wrote them, but I'm now hearing things in a totally different way.
[00:48:49] I mean, I have a song on the record, the title track, When I Get Through, which is to me the most transformative song on the record.
[00:48:56] And that is about this, this surgery and seeing the future of what, what could be for myself and, and being able to actually see that for the first time.
[00:49:05] But I'm also playing that song right now.
[00:49:07] And, uh, I've close friends in my life right now that are going through a separation and I'm, and I'm hearing this song and I'm thinking about them.
[00:49:15] And I'm thinking about them seeing like, when I get through this, like, what does the future hold for me?
[00:49:20] Like this whole new world could exist.
[00:49:22] And like, I, you know, it's just, it's just crazy to me to see how these things can be interpreted in different ways and, and connect you with people.
[00:49:32] Um, so I feel, I feel lucky to be, to be able to be the messenger.
[00:49:37] A year and a half, two years is not a long time.
[00:49:39] And, um, I'm sure I'm not the first person to tell you this, but like, you've got a remarkable amount of insight into this.
[00:49:48] Thank you, Brian.
[00:49:49] Thank you.
[00:49:50] I don't know.
[00:49:51] I, maybe, maybe I do.
[00:49:53] I mean, it's just my own story.
[00:49:55] So, uh, everyone knows their own story.
[00:49:57] You're very pragmatic about it, you know, and, and, and you're able to, to, to sort of like examine it to certain.
[00:50:04] I mean, obviously you're, you're, you're still living through it, but, um, but you've given yourself some distance to be able to, to, to look at this process and, and, and you, and you speak about it very well.
[00:50:19] Thank you.
[00:50:20] Thank you.
[00:50:21] Well, it's, it's like, uh, I'm, I'm grateful to be able to have the opportunity to talk about it.
[00:50:26] Uh, I think some, some people don't want to, or some people just want to talk about like the process of just like the technical side of the music or the, you know, how, you know, how did you decide to approach the song this way?
[00:50:41] And so it's nice to have the opportunity to be able to talk with people about the, the actual story and what this, you know, what the experience was like, um, that sparked the songwriting.
[00:50:52] Thank you.