Episode 683: Michael Des Barres

[00:00:12] Well, here's the thing. I don't have expectation. I don't believe in it. I never have. Even as a kid, even at 18 years old, you know, doing a nude musical in London. It's a very odd thing. You know, I didn't know my parents. I went to this dreadful boarding school for years, you know, without knowing them. And I really just learned to deal with the moment, you know. I was like Krishnamurti, but with iMake.

[00:00:41] You know, it's a very difficult thing to explain, but it's pretty simple.

[00:00:48] One of the things I was doing in the lead up to this was listening to some relatively recent interviews you did and you were on Pamela's podcast and I guess she actually introduced you to Krishnamurti in the first place and it sounds like there was just a kinship there if that's how you were already living your life prior to crossing paths with him.

[00:01:07] Yeah, I mean, I was into Krishnamurti. But you see, what is hilarious about, not hilarious but extraordinary is Miss Pamela, the queen of the groupies and this sort of androgynous queen with eye makeup and will fuck anybody, you know, or whatever. And it wasn't as simple as that because it was a character that one was playing. And yet what the journalistic look at it was of the drama and the suspense that I was giving out.

[00:01:36] You know, I played the part of a singer. That's all I've done, you know.

[00:01:41] So then when she came along, this incredible woman, this sexy, brilliant woman who has written six books and they're magnificent as you may or may not know. And we got into Krishnamurti. But we were also into everything else that was happening. You can't go to Rodney Bingenheimer's restaurant and talk about Krishnamurti. It was able to stop. You know, that's probably not going to work.

[00:02:03] But that was, that is, and we still, and my wife you just met, they're great friends too, you know. And it's, yeah, Krishnamurti changed my life as did, you know, Muddy Waters.

[00:02:18] I'm fascinated by this idea of playing a character. I've heard a lot of people describe what they do that way. At a certain point, if you inhabit a character for long enough, don't you start to become that character?

[00:02:32] I've had a lot of characters, you know. I was doing 21 Jump Street and the power station at the same time. So I had to be on top of it and remember who the hell I was, you know, pretending to be, you know. And I've never stuck with one personality. I've just tried to get away from more thinking.

[00:02:54] You know, I don't think about it too much. They say to me, well, you've got to write a book. I said, this is the last thing I'm going to do is write a book.

[00:03:02] You think I want to talk about my mad father who went to jail and my mom, you know, is a lunatic and a stripper and, you know, people saw my, presumably my documentary and that's enough for me.

[00:03:12] I'm not going to sit around and write my past about my past. I'm too interested in with you right now. I mean, that's what's important. It's not important to know how what I did with Jimmy Page, you know, I mean, unless you ask me. If you ask me, I'll answer any question, you know, but I don't, you know, dwell. I'm not a dwell.

[00:03:37] The documentary effectively came about, of all people, J. Elvis Weinstein from Mystery Science Theater fame directed it, but it came about because somebody approached you and asked you to do it. And the only way that this portrait of you really could have happened was from a third party.

[00:03:56] Absolutely right. He didn't really know me at all. You know, I was, you know, the actor and he was on the other side of things. He was the writer and he wanted to write a book about me. And I said, don't write a book about me. Get the right. You know.

[00:04:10] I'm pretty, damn it. Put me on camera.

[00:04:12] Yeah, put me on camera, the visuals, you know, because I told the truth and I had a great time and I always seem to have a great time with whatever goes down.

[00:04:20] See, I was thinking about when, you know, before seeing you, you know, what I have to say. Well, what I have to say is what you ask me. There's nothing I want to say, particularly, you know, I'll talk about anything.

[00:04:37] But I've done this so many different times with people and they're either 80% just rock fans and they just want to hear about plant or something.

[00:04:49] And then that's just bores the shit out of me, you know. And I'm too busy for all of that stuff.

[00:04:56] But I'd heard about you and your vibe here and I thought, well, we can talk about what's happening in the moment.

[00:05:03] You know, things come. If you ask me a question, it'll come to me. But I don't dwell on live aid, you know.

[00:05:10] Yeah, I was going to say there are organic ways to talk about Robert Plant, I suspect.

[00:05:14] For you with that experience, I assume that you have since watched the documentary.

[00:05:19] What was it like seeing that picture of your life like that?

[00:05:25] Gorgeous. What a stunning bloke.

[00:05:29] You're talking about you specifically, yeah.

[00:05:31] I'd sleep with him. I'd have him.

[00:05:34] Yeah.

[00:05:35] You know, yeah, it was great. I mean, I never watched it while he was creating it, you know, for seven years.

[00:05:42] We were at that.

[00:05:43] Seven years?

[00:05:44] Yeah.

[00:05:46] Because he was working his ass off. I was working very hard.

[00:05:49] And it took about seven years for him.

[00:05:52] He's a really wonderful man who really wants to get it right, clearly.

[00:05:57] You know, but it was a long time coming. And I was so excited about that and remain so. And I loved Josh. And it was great to watch it. I thought it was funny. But it's also, you know, it was about my life. You know, I wasn't skipping or leaving anything out. You know, everything that I wanted to say, I said.

[00:06:19] You must have led a pretty good life if all of your exes are in there saying nice things about you.

[00:06:25] That's so brilliant. That's an absolutely wonderful observation. And yeah, I've been lucky. All three women, incredible women, really. I mean, Miss Farmer, forget about it. Britta, amazing. So smart and loving.

[00:06:39] And, you know, I've been with her for 16 years. And we've been really happy together and made a beautiful home for us, you know. But I really try and stay here right now, you know. It's the old Christian Murthy thing, you know, of just staying here in the moment and that's enough, you know.

[00:06:59] I gave up saying I wish. I wish I hadn't done that. I wish I had done that.

[00:07:08] In terms of regrets.

[00:07:11] Dangerous place to go.

[00:07:12] Easy level, you know. I wish we could do that again. You know, it's a very dangerous opening sentence, you know. I wish. So I try and stay away from that, you know. Because I've had just this extraordinary life, you know. It's a movie. It really is what happened to me.

[00:07:29] The boarding school years, you know.

[00:07:32] You know, where I'm being picked on by these conservative, sort of upper class homosexual maniacs, you know, were very good at soccer.

[00:07:44] Basically, what you're saying is British boarding school is everything you think it is.

[00:07:48] Yeah. Everything, every movie you've ever seen, yes. And worse. Because of the incredible insufferable aristocrats, which I was, you know, and my dad, you know, and all of that.

[00:08:01] And I never, ever thought about the marquee vibe. I've only done it because it's funny, you know. And then the station, I think, to call myself the marquee MDB, it's hilarious, you know.

[00:08:13] But I figured as a DJ, you had to come up with something, you know what I mean. But the schools themselves, I, you know, I just was so disgusted by the class system.

[00:08:26] Because all of my heroes at that time were from, like, you know, the East End. They all talked like this.

[00:08:31] You know, Stevie Marrier, like Mick Jagger and Keith. Well, I don't know. You know, but what I was dealing with at the schools.

[00:08:39] Now, look here, Michael. I think that your cricket, your cricket abilities are very, very, very uncool. You know what I mean?

[00:08:49] And I couldn't live in that world, you know, that ridiculous aristocratic world. I wanted to get into the streets and in the gutter where I belonged.

[00:08:57] So it was always going to be music and acting for you?

[00:09:01] Yeah. Yes. But then again, you see, I have a different view of acting.

[00:09:08] Because I have stopped acting. Otherwise, I'd be acting for you, you know.

[00:09:14] You can turn it off, just like you could turn the characters off, you know, when you're interacting in different situations.

[00:09:20] Well, that's dangerous. That's like saying, oh, I can have a little bit of coke.

[00:09:23] Okay.

[00:09:25] You know.

[00:09:26] I'll be all right. And then two weeks later, you're, you know, dead.

[00:09:31] But, and it's 43 years since I had a drink or any drugs, you know, so.

[00:09:36] But no.

[00:09:37] You can't do, you can't have a little bit of anything at the end of the day.

[00:09:41] No, I've never had a little bit of anything. I've always had a huge bite out of that apple cake.

[00:09:46] You know, I mean, I either go all the way or I don't go that way at all.

[00:09:52] Let's try and stay right here with you and, you know, amuse you and also, you know, hopefully be truthful and new for you.

[00:10:02] You know, I'm sure you, you go laborious interviewers and ease, you know, you must sometimes go, oh, I can't be bothered with this shit.

[00:10:11] This is actually, believe it or not, this is a thing that I do for fun.

[00:10:15] I actually lose money on this podcast.

[00:10:17] So, you know, it's the thing that keeps me.

[00:10:20] That's good.

[00:10:20] You hear a lot.

[00:10:21] You learn a lot.

[00:10:22] You want to learn.

[00:10:23] You're in an educative consciousness, you know, and as am I.

[00:10:28] I read a lot.

[00:10:31] But, you know, it's been an amazing journey for me because I was thinking the other day, you know, what is a star?

[00:10:37] How would you describe a star?

[00:10:39] I suppose somebody who's reached a certain level of fame and notoriety.

[00:10:45] You think that's good?

[00:10:46] I've heard a lot of horror stories.

[00:10:49] Would you want to be a star?

[00:10:52] I think that it largely depends on what you are famous for and if you're able to do things on your own terms.

[00:11:00] I don't think that everybody, I don't think everybody necessarily comes out on the other end of fame worse for wear.

[00:11:09] But it seems like more often than not, that's the case.

[00:11:13] No, that's beautifully put.

[00:11:16] Do you think there are any stars left?

[00:11:19] Yeah, sure.

[00:11:20] Who?

[00:11:21] Who?

[00:11:22] Taylor Swift.

[00:11:23] Taylor Swift is a star?

[00:11:25] Would you disagree?

[00:11:28] Well, I don't believe in the whole notion of galactic titles, you know.

[00:11:36] I think, and this probably sounds so lame, there are people all over the world helping other people.

[00:11:43] And it's one thing to give $5 million to wherever she gives them to.

[00:11:48] But it's another thing to see those people who work and laboriously for the poor and help people.

[00:11:57] And there's no cameras around a star.

[00:12:02] And I've been writing a piece about that.

[00:12:05] There are no cameras around a real star because a real star to me is a shining bright star, somebody that helps people.

[00:12:12] And there's no money involved.

[00:12:16] There's no documentary involved.

[00:12:19] There's none of that or prizes for being who you are.

[00:12:22] Imagine getting a prize for who you are.

[00:12:25] You know, like a human award.

[00:12:28] You know, it just seems to me such a sort of a childlike world.

[00:12:34] Sure, but you've been famous for most of your life at this point.

[00:12:37] So you have embraced fame to a certain extent.

[00:12:39] I don't embrace it.

[00:12:41] I, you know, I live with it.

[00:12:45] I mean, even at this stage of the game, I cannot go out there without somebody putting a gun in my face.

[00:12:54] And say, Murdoch, your time is up.

[00:12:58] And, you know, or something.

[00:13:00] Then I go.

[00:13:04] That television show I was on 40 years ago.

[00:13:07] You said, I mean, you led with somebody putting a gun in my face.

[00:13:11] About telly, about the television.

[00:13:14] You're, I'm live on television every day somewhere.

[00:13:19] Syndicated.

[00:13:20] Yes, syndicated.

[00:13:21] I've done 100 and what is it?

[00:13:22] 120 different episodes of nonsense.

[00:13:26] You know, Melrose Place and all of that stuff.

[00:13:29] MacGyver, all of those shows.

[00:13:31] 21 Jump Street, me and Johnny.

[00:13:33] I remember the first episode we ever did together.

[00:13:35] You know, all he wanted to do was play guitar.

[00:13:37] Oh, you know, and I see in him a true artist that was treated badly.

[00:13:44] You know, treated very bad.

[00:13:47] Because once you, if you get, if you get that high, there's no air, man.

[00:13:52] No air up there.

[00:13:54] Coincidentally, I spoke with Mike Campbell recently from the Heartbreakers.

[00:13:57] And that video into the, he was talking about that video, I think it was into the Great Wide Open,

[00:14:01] where Johnny Depp effectively plays him.

[00:14:04] And he sort of plays out that journey of the young star becoming a rock star and his downfall all over the course of two and a half minutes.

[00:14:14] Yeah.

[00:14:15] And Johnny Depp's an incredible artist, a great actor.

[00:14:19] And, you know, the creation of Jack Sparrow is something else.

[00:14:22] But I knew he was special.

[00:14:23] I remember we were up there.

[00:14:25] Jonesy came with me up to Canada, Vancouver, where we shot all of that stuff.

[00:14:30] And I was playing a killer or a club owner or something.

[00:14:34] And I was in my, you know, what do they call it?

[00:14:38] Like the dressing room.

[00:14:40] But it's a, what do they call them?

[00:14:42] You know.

[00:14:43] I mean, there was trailer.

[00:14:45] Trailer.

[00:14:45] And Johnny comes in and it's Steve Jones.

[00:14:49] Now, if Orson Welles had come in, he wouldn't have experienced it.

[00:14:53] You know what I mean?

[00:14:54] I mean, Steve Jones of the Sex Pistols.

[00:14:57] And he went bonkers, you know.

[00:15:00] And he was so exhausted because it's exhausting doing those shows, you know.

[00:15:05] And he fell asleep.

[00:15:08] And Jonesy, who does not like to be, you know, worshipped on that level, unlike, you know, most people.

[00:15:15] And Johnny fell asleep and he looked at him and goes, he's fucking gorgeous.

[00:15:22] I fell over with glee.

[00:15:25] Here's a Sex Pistols looking at this beautiful young man whose life was just insane where it went, you know.

[00:15:33] And I thought right there, this is dangerous.

[00:15:36] This guy is too beautiful.

[00:15:38] He's delicate, really, to get through this, you know.

[00:15:42] And so he created a Johnny Depp in order to deal with, you know, what he had to deal with.

[00:15:49] Can you recall a point in your life where you've had a similar reaction to meeting somebody where you were genuinely starstruck in that way?

[00:15:58] No, I've never met anybody that really, that I looked forward to seeing, you know.

[00:16:05] I think everybody's a star and, you know, shining bright because there's a goodness in them.

[00:16:17] The one person who I've worked with, it was a great question, no one's ever asked me that, is Gabriel Byrne.

[00:16:24] And Gabriel Byrne is a poet, an Irishman of tremendous brilliance of how we live our lives.

[00:16:36] And I did a movie with him 20, 30 years ago.

[00:16:40] We've been friends, maybe more.

[00:16:41] I can't remember.

[00:16:42] It was with Steve Martin, a movie.

[00:16:46] And we were stuck in Atlanta, Georgia, which is a great place to get stuck in.

[00:16:50] But depends on the time of year, I would say.

[00:16:52] Yeah, right.

[00:16:52] And the time of day, you know, you're up at four in the morning and getting on a horse.

[00:16:58] And he couldn't ride a horse.

[00:16:59] There's a million stories there.

[00:17:00] But he, I've always stuck to him, you know, whenever anything's gone that I just cannot figure out, I'll call him.

[00:17:09] He's got this soft, like, Irish voice.

[00:17:11] And, Michael, what I'd say to you is just sit back, relax.

[00:17:16] Acceptance is the key.

[00:17:18] That would be the way to go with this.

[00:17:19] Just accept it, accept it.

[00:17:21] Michael, don't get, you know, don't think it's something that's going to kill you.

[00:17:25] It's not going to kill you.

[00:17:26] It's going to change you.

[00:17:27] You know, and he's wonderful sort of that timbre of his voice, that Irish poet vibe was just so incredible.

[00:17:35] And whenever I do need to hear from somebody, a good friend, I'll call him and he'll answer, you know, and that helps.

[00:17:43] But that's right.

[00:17:45] I don't know if you've been through therapy at all.

[00:17:48] Oh, yeah.

[00:17:49] A funny thing about, you know, when you actually bite the bullet and start doing it, that how much of it is just conversational and confessional.

[00:17:59] And hearing that conversation with him, he's telling you things you already know, but you still need somebody to tell you those things.

[00:18:08] That's right.

[00:18:08] You're exactly right.

[00:18:10] It's underscoring what you already know, but you forget because you're scared.

[00:18:13] And it's fear that takes it away.

[00:18:15] And you're absolutely right about that, you know.

[00:18:17] I mean, with my therapist, we talk about, you know, movies or something.

[00:18:21] And, you know, it relaxes me.

[00:18:23] And then we'll get into whatever is on my mind at that time, you know.

[00:18:28] Yeah, I think it's very important to go to have therapy.

[00:18:31] You know, it certainly helped me.

[00:18:32] And that began because, you know, when I quit coke and all of that 43 years ago, I would go into these rooms and it was amazing.

[00:18:42] You know, one felt part of something that was right of helping each other.

[00:18:47] Then you go out in the street and it's completely different.

[00:18:49] People want something from you.

[00:18:50] But in there, people want to give you something about themselves.

[00:18:55] And that was great.

[00:18:56] It changed, though.

[00:18:57] I stopped going into AA because it almost became a nightclub.

[00:19:01] In what sense?

[00:19:02] The drug would be not doing drugs and the pride.

[00:19:12] You know as well as anybody, you know, I stopped drinking about a little over five years ago.

[00:19:17] And you know as well as anybody, as we said, you know, you don't do moderation.

[00:19:21] And you know as well as anybody that that energy has to go somewhere.

[00:19:25] Yeah.

[00:19:26] Where did it go for you?

[00:19:28] Well, it went into the work.

[00:19:30] You know, I was working 20 hours a day sometimes.

[00:19:33] You know, the work of an actor is very, very difficult.

[00:19:36] It's why I stopped.

[00:19:37] It was because here I am in this coach, you know, waiting, you know, with a gun and tight pants and black leather coats.

[00:19:45] And waiting to go kill somebody for hours.

[00:19:49] And then I'd go in and kill them and go back.

[00:19:53] That's not living, you know.

[00:19:55] And theater.

[00:19:56] I loved doing theater when I was a kid.

[00:19:58] You know, that's how it all started.

[00:20:00] Andrew Lloyd Webber came.

[00:20:02] You know, I did this musical.

[00:20:03] I don't know if you know this story.

[00:20:05] But I did this nude musical in London.

[00:20:07] I was like 19.

[00:20:08] And it was fantastic.

[00:20:11] It was a New York show.

[00:20:12] And they wanted an English cast.

[00:20:14] And I sang in it.

[00:20:15] And Andrew Lloyd Webber came to that thing.

[00:20:18] He was writing Jesus Christ Superstar at the time with Tim.

[00:20:22] And he was doing it at the time.

[00:20:23] And he was looking for singers.

[00:20:25] So he comes to the musical.

[00:20:27] And he comes backstage.

[00:20:28] And he says, you know, would you come and sing these demos?

[00:20:32] Which I did.

[00:20:33] And you had Ian Gillen from Deep Purple, who had a beautiful voice.

[00:20:36] Really, really stunning singer.

[00:20:38] And he was there.

[00:20:40] And he was in Deep Purple and Purple Records.

[00:20:42] And Andrew knew Purple Records.

[00:20:44] And he took me to Purple Records.

[00:20:45] And I got a record deal.

[00:20:46] That's how it happened.

[00:20:47] You got a rock and roll record deal through Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[00:20:50] Yeah.

[00:20:51] Michael Debar, Superstar.

[00:20:53] Here's one anecdote.

[00:20:54] Not even an anecdote.

[00:20:56] But one piece from your history that I am really curious about.

[00:20:59] I don't know if anybody ever asks you about this.

[00:21:00] But I noticed this in your bio that you were into Sir With Love?

[00:21:10] Yeah.

[00:21:10] How old were you?

[00:21:13] I was 16.

[00:21:15] 16.

[00:21:15] I mean, that must have been an incredible experience at that time.

[00:21:18] Well, yeah.

[00:21:19] I mean, I'd been in boarding schools from 8 to 16.

[00:21:21] I never went home, you know, because there was no harm.

[00:21:23] So I stayed in the thing, in these big colossal sort of mythological buildings in Lancashire.

[00:21:30] You know, cold and dark and Wuthering Heights.

[00:21:33] And I thought, fuck this.

[00:21:34] Dickensian.

[00:21:35] Yes.

[00:21:39] Sure.

[00:21:39] And so I'd leave at 16.

[00:21:44] You're not meant to leave at 16.

[00:21:45] You're meant to leave at 18 and then go to a university.

[00:21:47] But I couldn't take it.

[00:21:49] I just could not take it.

[00:21:50] I was obsessed with the Muddy Waters and all of the usual blues guys that everybody, you know.

[00:21:55] And I loved all of that.

[00:21:57] And I really wanted to sing so bad.

[00:22:00] And I also thought that, you know, because I was vaguely cute, that I could, you know, do some acting.

[00:22:08] And I went to a drama school and they let me in.

[00:22:11] I had no money, no parents, nothing.

[00:22:14] And I got a job working backstage at the Royal Shakespeare Company with doing the props, right?

[00:22:19] So I'm two weeks into drama school and James Glabel, the director of the movie, came to the drama school to pick out kids for that classroom with Sydney.

[00:22:31] Poitier, who was the greatest person I ever met.

[00:22:34] And there we were.

[00:22:35] And he said, all right, get in with the hair.

[00:22:37] He's got bangs.

[00:22:38] I mean, I had that whole look, you know, very early.

[00:22:41] Like a mod?

[00:22:42] No, not mods.

[00:22:43] Not mods.

[00:22:44] No, I was never a mod.

[00:22:46] I was never a mod on a scooter.

[00:22:47] I was always, you know, a transvestite.

[00:22:53] You know, it was androgyny.

[00:22:56] You know, it was more.

[00:22:58] Even at 16.

[00:23:00] Especially, yeah, at 16.

[00:23:02] I read all the, that whole bohemian world for me, Oscar Wilde.

[00:23:07] And, you know, that's what I enjoyed.

[00:23:11] That and Chuck Berry, you know, this curious equation of Oscar Wilde and Chuck Berry.

[00:23:17] Sort of happened.

[00:23:18] And the clothes thing was androgyny.

[00:23:20] And I met this girl, my first wife called Wendy.

[00:23:23] And we wore the same clothes and the same hair, same makeup.

[00:23:27] And made each other up and all of that stuff.

[00:23:29] And this is like late 60s.

[00:23:31] This is 65, 66.

[00:23:33] And I got in a movie.

[00:23:35] And there was Sydney.

[00:23:36] And I spent more time with him than anybody did.

[00:23:40] Because I wanted to know.

[00:23:41] He was the biggest star in the world.

[00:23:43] He was a black guy, you know.

[00:23:45] At that time, I guess he was coming to dinner, to sit with love.

[00:23:48] And there's a third one that he did.

[00:23:50] And he was huge.

[00:23:51] But more than that, he was so Krishnamurti.

[00:23:56] You know, he was so peaceful.

[00:23:58] He was zen.

[00:23:59] He was very zen.

[00:24:01] That's the word.

[00:24:01] He was very zen.

[00:24:03] And I wasn't.

[00:24:04] And, you know, I learned an enormous amount from him.

[00:24:07] You know, because the kids were so close together.

[00:24:11] What, four or five months together?

[00:24:13] There was a lot of shenanigans going on.

[00:24:15] But I was really listening to what Sydney taught me.

[00:24:20] Which was how to act.

[00:24:21] And mainly, the main thing that I learned from him is don't.

[00:24:27] Don't act.

[00:24:29] Be.

[00:24:31] It's not acting.

[00:24:33] It's happening.

[00:24:35] And I thought, well, that's easy to say, though.

[00:24:37] He says, don't ever say that again.

[00:24:39] Don't ever say that again.

[00:24:41] You're being.

[00:24:42] Just because somebody says action, it means nothing.

[00:24:46] And when they say cut, it means nothing.

[00:24:50] You are that person.

[00:24:52] And I understood what he said.

[00:24:54] You know, I understood.

[00:24:55] In hindsight, it's, I think, a real testament to him as a person that, you know, he met this foppish 16-year-old British kid and had time for you.

[00:25:07] He had time for everyone.

[00:25:08] It's just that I grabbed him and just tried to get as much information.

[00:25:14] But you know what else happened?

[00:25:15] And I've never told anybody this.

[00:25:18] After Sidney, after the movie, I became obsessed with, you know, the yardbirds and that whole world and the clubs.

[00:25:27] And I did a movie with Tony Curtis.

[00:25:31] I did exactly the same thing with Tony Curtis, who was completely the opposite of Sidney Poitier.

[00:25:37] He just wanted fun.

[00:25:38] He just wanted the girls.

[00:25:39] He wanted the drugs.

[00:25:40] He wanted to, he wanted, he's this gorgeous superstar.

[00:25:44] America in London, you know, so people would go crazy for him, you know.

[00:25:50] And so I got a lot out of him, too.

[00:25:53] I loved Tony Curtis because I'd just been with this saint.

[00:25:58] I mean, the saintly man is what he was, you know, who wasn't looking at the young girls.

[00:26:02] Girls, you know, it was like he was focusing on the fact that he was being, you know, educating these young people.

[00:26:09] I mean, he's really into it.

[00:26:11] And Curtis was just there for fun.

[00:26:13] You know, I remember one thing.

[00:26:15] We were all playing kids and he was playing a little child.

[00:26:18] And he had this beautiful watch on.

[00:26:20] And the director said, Tony, please take the watch off.

[00:26:23] It was like a billion dollar watch.

[00:26:25] Takes it off.

[00:26:26] And he threw it at the, he said, you have it.

[00:26:29] It's a gift.

[00:26:30] He was that kind of guy from the Bronx.

[00:26:33] And so I, the saintliness of Sidney Poitier and the absolute gypsy lover boy from the Bronx.

[00:26:41] The devil and the angels on your shoulder.

[00:26:43] Yes, yes, yes.

[00:26:46] Precisely.

[00:26:46] The devil and the angels.

[00:26:48] That's exactly it.

[00:26:49] I never thought of it that way, but that's exactly right.

[00:26:52] Both sides of the coin, you can't lose.

[00:26:55] At the time, it sounds like you were, I think what now we would call maybe gender fluid is maybe an accurate term.

[00:27:02] You know, in the living situation that you were in, you know, with your father and going to boarding school.

[00:27:09] Was that, was that a point of contention for you?

[00:27:13] It was a lot.

[00:27:14] It was really just, you know, I was quite acute.

[00:27:18] And therefore these boys would, you know, I had been through a lot.

[00:27:22] Let's just put it that way.

[00:27:23] I had been attacked and treated really badly by these young aristocrats in these boarding schools.

[00:27:33] I don't think I have to explain that to you.

[00:27:36] You could use your own imagination of that.

[00:27:40] When I got to London, all of the gay managers and agents and stuff wanted me to.

[00:27:45] Because I'm literally wearing makeup way before David did or anybody did, you know.

[00:27:52] And that was a problem.

[00:27:57] But I always had Wendy by my side, you know, who was my first wife.

[00:28:01] But there was a lot of that then, you know.

[00:28:04] I could, you know the names.

[00:28:05] I'm sure you're rock and roll, sort of know about that.

[00:28:09] Especially that era, because it began there.

[00:28:12] And there was a lot of gayness and a lot of issues that I had to deal with in many, many ways.

[00:28:18] Let's put it that way.

[00:28:19] So much of this new album is glam.

[00:28:22] I mean, really like kind of beginning to end.

[00:28:26] So clearly that's continued to be, I mean, I guess that's, would you say the defining era for you?

[00:28:32] Yeah.

[00:28:33] This is the reason I did it.

[00:28:35] Because rock and roll is dead.

[00:28:37] Do you know any bands that you like?

[00:28:40] I do, but none of them are on the radio.

[00:28:43] Well, that's my point.

[00:28:44] I am on the radio every day for three hours.

[00:28:47] So I thought, okay, 1970 to 1976.

[00:28:53] I'm going to do an album on that, the suite.

[00:28:57] David, of course.

[00:28:59] T-Rex.

[00:29:00] Did you see the list of the songs that I'm doing?

[00:29:04] I heard the T-Rex songs.

[00:29:05] Well, I'm a huge fan of them.

[00:29:07] How great do they sound?

[00:29:08] We did that whole thing in 12 hours.

[00:29:10] I mean, it's a fantastic thing.

[00:29:12] You know, I was with, I literally had dinner with Mike Chapman last night who did the suite

[00:29:18] and did mud and did all the bands.

[00:29:21] And he said, you know, Michael, I was playing this to my wife yesterday.

[00:29:25] And it's fantastic what you've done with it because it was just guitar, bass, drums and me.

[00:29:30] There's no effects.

[00:29:32] See, so the reason I wanted to do it was say, well, if I can do anything, because I can do

[00:29:36] anything I want at this stage of the game.

[00:29:38] You know, I don't need them.

[00:29:39] I don't need anything from anybody.

[00:29:41] I've got it.

[00:29:42] And so what happened was I thought, well, if that time is dying, I'm going to go back

[00:29:48] and I don't care who buys it or how good it sells.

[00:29:52] I want to go back and let people know that they can go out and play guitar, bass, drums.

[00:29:56] And, you know, you don't need these synthesizers and these things.

[00:30:00] And, you know, your voice is treated through a machine.

[00:30:02] And I could hardly hear myself for two years because, you know, it was so difficult, you

[00:30:08] know, to actually hear yourself.

[00:30:10] There were no monitors in those days.

[00:30:11] I'm always curious.

[00:30:13] You know, this isn't just one or two covers.

[00:30:15] This is an album worth of covers.

[00:30:19] The process of, yeah, the process of reinterpreting a song, you know, like the T-Rex song is,

[00:30:25] I would say, pretty, pretty loyal, pretty faithful to the original.

[00:30:28] But there's a Sex Pistol song that kind of takes it in a fully different direction.

[00:30:35] What is the process for you?

[00:30:37] And how do you make sure that you kind of, I guess, serve the song, but make sure that

[00:30:45] it's not just a carbon copy?

[00:30:47] Well, I'm doing these songs in my way.

[00:30:50] So you're stuck with that.

[00:30:52] You know, when you've got only a minority of instruments and just one singer, then you're

[00:30:58] going to, you're going to, they're all going to sound the same, you know, because most people,

[00:31:02] when they hear any kind of music, they don't, they don't listen to the lyric.

[00:31:05] They don't understand.

[00:31:07] It comes as it comes.

[00:31:09] But what I chose, you know, I took a long time in doing all of that and, you know, putting

[00:31:14] Bowie in there, T-Rex in there, in Rod in there, Jagger there, Keith there, all of the

[00:31:19] people that I was informed by are very different.

[00:31:24] Mark Bowen, you know, was very sort of magical and sexy.

[00:31:32] And Bowie was this almost, not impotent, that wouldn't be the word, but alien, alien from the

[00:31:41] world and something different.

[00:31:43] Bowen was from a forest.

[00:31:45] Bowie was from space, but it sounded the same.

[00:31:50] It had the same effect.

[00:31:51] Bowen is fascinating.

[00:31:53] Well, for a number of reasons, but one of them, and I heard you say this on one of the

[00:31:59] podcasts, I can't remember which one it was, but you saw T-Rex when they were Tyrannosaurus

[00:32:03] Rex.

[00:32:04] Well, not only that, I knew him, you know, Mark Feld, because we'd go for auditions as little

[00:32:12] models, you know, and with a suit, the short hair.

[00:32:16] You know, he was in John's Children.

[00:32:17] When he was in John's Children, he was just a regular bloke.

[00:32:20] And then I didn't see him for a few months, you know, because he stopped going to these

[00:32:25] auditions and I was still doing that actor vibe.

[00:32:27] So I go to the roundhouse, whatever it was called.

[00:32:30] And there I am with Wendy and we're there.

[00:32:35] And she's got a boa on, right?

[00:32:39] So, and there he is sitting cross-legged with Steve Peregrine Took, who was the conga player,

[00:32:45] because he just had a conga player and he's cross-legged.

[00:32:48] And I have never seen an audience so excited and quiet.

[00:32:55] This guy, you know, he would sing these incredible melodies and his amazing Tolkien-esque words.

[00:33:04] And he was this pixie, he was a hobbit, but like a sexy hobbit, you know.

[00:33:12] And I thought, this is Frodo in drag?

[00:33:14] What the fuck is this?

[00:33:15] You know, with a boa.

[00:33:16] Well, I thought, you know, and I went out and I said, you look just like me.

[00:33:22] I said to him, you know, because we were in all of that gear.

[00:33:25] And anyway, you know, and he became the biggest thing ever for a short while.

[00:33:32] That's the terrible thing.

[00:33:36] Bowie kept going, you know, and in the end, or at least from the middle to the end,

[00:33:43] he was doing whatever he wanted.

[00:33:45] He was singing whatever he wanted.

[00:33:46] He was writing whatever he wanted.

[00:33:48] Whether it's not, I mean, he could care less.

[00:33:50] He's worth $200 million at that time.

[00:33:52] But Mark was an unbelievable guy, magical guy.

[00:33:57] My friend, B.P. Fallon, who was our kind of like conciliary on a rock and roll level,

[00:34:02] brilliant guy, Irish, he believed that Mark was a magician because he'd gone to Paris.

[00:34:09] Do you know about this?

[00:34:11] He went, do you know the story?

[00:34:12] Went to Paris.

[00:34:14] And he was like, you know, this guy, beautiful, same, but goes to Paris.

[00:34:19] And two weeks later, he comes back.

[00:34:21] And he was in a different form and place and wrote all the great songs at that time.

[00:34:27] And B.P. Fallon told me, you know, he met with a wizard.

[00:34:31] There was a wizard in Paris, which is a great title, let's face it.

[00:34:35] Part of the reason why I bring them up specifically, and having seen them when they were Terrence,

[00:34:39] R.S. Rex, you know, as you're saying, wrapped attention in the audience.

[00:34:44] You could hear a pin drop.

[00:34:45] And then they make what I think is one of, and it's not discussed a lot, but one of the most

[00:34:51] interesting and dramatic transitions in rock and roll into T-Rex.

[00:34:57] I mean, it's an incredible transition.

[00:35:00] Yeah, it is.

[00:35:01] I think for two reasons.

[00:35:02] One, if you're at the roundhouse and you're cross-legged on the floor, you're not going to have a big audience

[00:35:07] because they can't see that.

[00:35:09] Yeah, it's as simple as that.

[00:35:10] Yeah.

[00:35:10] So then he stands up, and then he stands out, and everybody else stands up.

[00:35:16] And he writes a song in a groove that really requires electricity.

[00:35:22] The electric church is suddenly there in front of him, and it grew.

[00:35:26] You know, it wasn't immediate at all.

[00:35:28] You know, but he had that conga plan.

[00:35:31] And then the drummer came along, and then, you know, it really became a rock and roll band.

[00:35:38] And Tyrannosaurus Rex, he was very, very, very clear about, do not change the name.

[00:35:44] We are not Tyrannosaurus Rex.

[00:35:46] And they said, well, Mark, I'm afraid we can.

[00:35:50] Too many syllables, Mark.

[00:35:52] Yeah.

[00:35:54] Because the audience started getting bigger and bigger and bigger, you know.

[00:35:57] He said, well, I could afford to buy.

[00:35:59] Because it was all money.

[00:36:00] We didn't have any money.

[00:36:03] So, you know, although my father had left me money, I have to be honest.

[00:36:08] But the, and he was still in jail.

[00:36:10] God bless him.

[00:36:12] But Mark grew into this beautiful God, but it was a short-lived thing.

[00:36:17] It's very, it's a sad story, dude.

[00:36:20] It's a sad story.

[00:36:21] Get it on.

[00:36:22] He did get it on.

[00:36:23] And then it fell off.

[00:36:24] We discussed earlier trying to live your life as much as possible without regrets.

[00:36:29] And I think a big part of that, too, this is something that I've battled with that points in my life.

[00:36:34] The realization that because I put myself in a position where I surround myself with very talented musicians and artists, a lot of them become successful.

[00:36:45] And it's important, but I've found it difficult in my life to be happy for them and to not harbor a little bit of resentment for people when they get popular.

[00:36:59] It's fear.

[00:37:01] It's fear that they're not going to be there for very long and it's going to disappear.

[00:37:07] That's what you're seeing and that's what you're feeling because obviously you care about us human beings.

[00:37:15] And you can see that they're faking it because Hollywood and all of that or whatever, whoever you are, that's why I really love Keith and Mick because what they've done in terms of age.

[00:37:27] You know, so if this Andrew Watt album wasn't very good, so what?

[00:37:33] You know, they wrote Satisfaction.

[00:37:35] You know, they can play it every night.

[00:37:37] If Shakespeare, if Hamlet can be played every night, then you can hear Satisfaction every night.

[00:37:41] So I think a lot of people, not those two, are scared of not being at the height of the thing, you know, and enjoying and being very happy that they got that to happen to them.

[00:37:54] And now they're doing something else, you know.

[00:37:57] And usually what they do, and this is why I don't want to write a book, is they go into writing a book and they're reliving something when they could be living in another way.

[00:38:06] I mean, nobody's ever thought about that.

[00:38:08] I tell people, you know, you don't have to write a book to be loved.

[00:38:13] You love yourself first, you know.

[00:38:17] Some people obviously, you know, Pamela seems like somebody who has the drive to do that and has something to say.

[00:38:23] She was a writer right from the beginning.

[00:38:26] She never, you know, we met when we did a movie together in New York and she hated acting, you know.

[00:38:33] Because Zappa and that whole world were so in the moment.

[00:38:37] Things had to happen.

[00:38:38] There was no script to the GTOs, you know.

[00:38:42] Girls together outrageously in the late 60s.

[00:38:44] Oh, my God.

[00:38:46] And you think it's kind of funky now and sexy now?

[00:38:50] Ridiculous nonsense.

[00:38:51] These girls would stand naked on Sunset Strip with a boa and high-heeled shoes.

[00:38:57] And who cares?

[00:38:58] They did not care.

[00:38:59] Jimmy Page cared.

[00:39:01] But, you know.

[00:39:03] And I think that the bravery of Miss Pamela is that she's not an actress.

[00:39:07] She's a writer.

[00:39:08] It's interesting to hear you discuss Los Angeles in that time.

[00:39:12] And I, you know, was not around at the time.

[00:39:16] And I've heard a lot of people discuss this in different ways.

[00:39:20] It's always interesting.

[00:39:22] I think, you know, Hunter Thompson did a good job describing it.

[00:39:26] And obviously, people will point to, like, the Manson murders as this turn from the 60s into the 70s.

[00:39:33] And in a conversation that I heard you have recently, you were discussing that a little bit and the role that the change of drugs played in that, too.

[00:39:42] Could you really feel in the moment that things had changed that dramatically?

[00:39:46] Yes.

[00:39:47] And it was drugs that did it.

[00:39:49] Because all of the, you know, the 60s was marijuana and the 70s was cocaine.

[00:39:54] And you can really judge it that way.

[00:39:56] I believe in this one happened to me.

[00:39:58] Although I never smoked prod.

[00:39:59] But I smoked hashish.

[00:40:01] I liked the hashish thing because it had a sort of a rock and kind of a wit to it.

[00:40:08] But, you know, the 70s was fantastic.

[00:40:12] It was absolute, you know, a paradise of sexuality.

[00:40:18] You know, there were no gods at the Whiskey O'Gogo.

[00:40:21] There was no security at the gigs.

[00:40:24] Nobody can understand it when I say that.

[00:40:27] But I'm sure you can understand it.

[00:40:30] Because when you've got that barrier between you and that audience, it's a show.

[00:40:35] When you've not got that barrier, it's not a show.

[00:40:38] It's a party.

[00:40:39] And that's what our gigs were.

[00:40:41] Silver, you know, they were the best gigs of my life.

[00:40:43] It certainly wasn't Live Aid.

[00:40:45] You know, it was the best gig of my life.

[00:40:48] That was hilarious.

[00:40:49] I know you kind of cheekily said, you know, we wouldn't talk about Live Aid.

[00:40:54] But hey, since you brought it up, let's discuss specifically.

[00:40:59] Like, I can't imagine.

[00:41:01] I've been in front of small crowds of people.

[00:41:04] I've been on television.

[00:41:06] That's a very different experience.

[00:41:08] I can't imagine, especially Live Aid, the disconnect that you have not only from the audience, but from the band members.

[00:41:16] It seems like it's really isolating.

[00:41:17] It seems like an incredibly difficult situation to perform in.

[00:41:23] Easy, easy, easy.

[00:41:27] Easy, easy.

[00:41:28] I was so worked out.

[00:41:31] I had such a fantastic body.

[00:41:33] And my head was thick and gorgeous.

[00:41:35] And I had the most exquisite clothing on.

[00:41:38] And I could give a fuck.

[00:41:40] I'd only been there three days.

[00:41:43] Robert Palmer left it.

[00:41:45] And they got me.

[00:41:47] Because if checkered past me and Jonesy's band, we opened for Duran, right?

[00:41:51] So they said, well, let's get in.

[00:41:53] And I was in Miami with John Johnson, you know, because I did a few of those with him.

[00:41:58] And he's an old friend, blah, blah, blah.

[00:42:00] And then I go to New York.

[00:42:01] I had three days.

[00:42:02] I had to learn 30 songs in three days.

[00:42:06] And, you know, and I had obsession.

[00:42:07] It was like number one everywhere, you know, at that time too.

[00:42:11] So I thought, this is so great.

[00:42:15] If Madonna's bracelets can't stop shaking, then I can go out and do anything I want.

[00:42:22] From the nerves.

[00:42:23] Yeah.

[00:42:24] She was terrified.

[00:42:26] As was everybody.

[00:42:27] That's why it was so, you know, a lot of them didn't play.

[00:42:30] It wasn't like the Zeppelin's greatest moment, you know.

[00:42:33] You know.

[00:42:35] And it was difficult for a lot of people.

[00:42:37] They were terrified.

[00:42:37] We only had three songs.

[00:42:38] Bill Graham was screaming at everybody.

[00:42:41] You know.

[00:42:42] I mean, and I would.

[00:42:43] And there's a fabulous photograph of him.

[00:42:45] Got his finger in my face like this.

[00:42:48] And I'm just laughing my ass off.

[00:42:50] Because what can I lose?

[00:42:52] You know, during the six months, I'm going to make a fortune.

[00:42:56] And there's nothing to be upset about or frightened about.

[00:42:59] I never got frightened.

[00:43:00] Even on stage when I was a kid in the theater, I couldn't wait for that curtain to open, which is a good title.

[00:43:07] There wasn't a sense, though, that this can make or break me, depending on how I perform.

[00:43:11] I didn't sing like that.

[00:43:12] I've never thought, like, I promise you, you know, make or break what?

[00:43:17] What would you describe the make or break?

[00:43:19] Your situation was different because, you know, again, you said, like, there was already some money there.

[00:43:24] And the Animotion song came out, so you were getting the royalties.

[00:43:28] But just, you know, at a certain point, you want some success because, you know, we live in a capitalistic society.

[00:43:35] And it's part of survival.

[00:43:38] Well, yeah.

[00:43:40] I mean, I've never been bereft of money, you know.

[00:43:43] The thing about that is if you get taken seriously, you're doing something wrong, is my view.

[00:43:55] You're there to have fun.

[00:43:58] It's fun to play in front of, what, two billion people and to say that you did it, you know.

[00:44:05] And stardom, you know, I don't consider myself that at all.

[00:44:09] Oh, I've just worked really hard and had a great experience.

[00:44:13] And, you know, I've got a terrific wardrobe and a lovely house.

[00:44:16] And, you know, there's no percentage for me.

[00:44:21] 60% famous.

[00:44:23] You know, it doesn't come into my consciousness.

[00:44:26] I think you touched on something really interesting there, the idea of taking it seriously.

[00:44:31] Because at the end of the day, this is something, again, I think about a lot with my own career and the things that I've been able to do.

[00:44:39] You know, I have bad days.

[00:44:41] We all have bad days.

[00:44:43] I can't really complain because I know a lot of people have much more difficult days.

[00:44:48] But at the end of the day, when you look at it really abstractly and you distill it down, it's an incredibly silly thing that you get to do for a living.

[00:44:59] Yeah.

[00:45:00] I understand.

[00:45:03] I have been very lucky.

[00:45:05] I think any pain that I feel is for others.

[00:45:12] And I drive through L.A.

[00:45:15] Very rarely do I go around in L.A. anymore.

[00:45:19] We're just in London.

[00:45:20] We're thinking of moving the whole shebang over to London because L.A. is like a movie set of a dying city.

[00:45:31] It's incredibly sad to see people in that state.

[00:45:34] Precisely the word.

[00:45:36] And there are these people lying on these blankets on the sidewalk.

[00:45:41] And it breaks my heart.

[00:45:43] It breaks my heart to see that.

[00:45:49] Do you feel that there's something, you know, given the, again, I don't want to say fame, but given the luck and success and all of the great things that you've had in your life, is there something that you can do to help others?

[00:46:04] Oh, I do.

[00:46:05] You know, I do.

[00:46:06] You can imagine on social media, people ask me, what the fuck am I going to do?

[00:46:13] What am I going to do?

[00:46:14] How do I do?

[00:46:14] How do I get anywhere?

[00:46:16] Of course, I'm asked that every day a hundred times.

[00:46:19] How do I get to somewhere where I can be acknowledged as being terrific?

[00:46:23] I said, well, first of all, you've got to be terrific.

[00:46:25] So how are you going to do that?

[00:46:27] What are you going to be terrific at?

[00:46:29] And then when there's a pause and they don't know, then I'll realize that they'll never be terrific.

[00:46:34] Because if you don't know what terrific is in your world, you ain't that terrific.

[00:46:40] So I say that to them.

[00:46:43] I say, you can't even tell me what you want to be terrific at.

[00:46:46] What you're saying to me is, when am I going to be loved?

[00:46:50] Who's going to love me?

[00:46:51] I'm tearing up now.

[00:46:54] I get that a lot.

[00:46:55] And it really, really hurts me because they don't understand for the most part.

[00:47:00] And I'll say, I love you.

[00:47:02] There are people that love you.

[00:47:04] Everyone will love you if you love yourself.

[00:47:07] Love yourself enough to be loved.

[00:47:09] I say it every time on the radio.

[00:47:12] And I know this sounds like kind of weird, you know, because, you know, I'm also into

[00:47:16] Alistair Crowley, but that's another trick.

[00:47:19] But when on the radio, you know, they're so sweet to me.

[00:47:23] And they say, what do I do?

[00:47:25] I say, what do you, you know, and then you go through the whole thing about what do you

[00:47:28] want to do?

[00:47:28] Do you want to be a circus tiger trainer?

[00:47:31] Do you want to be a dentist?

[00:47:32] You know, find something.

[00:47:34] Find something that you'd be good at.

[00:47:37] And you'll be a happy, you know, man, woman, and everyone in between.

[00:47:41] Yeah.

[00:47:42] Well, Alistair Crowley was nothing if not into feeling good.

[00:47:48] Well, by being bad, he felt good, which is a great title.

[00:47:53] Is that a Paul Watchers song?

[00:47:54] I don't know.

[00:47:55] But yes, I'm curious.

[00:47:58] So, so let's end on this so that we can make it like a big and you can take all the time

[00:48:02] you need on it because I'm going to try to ask like a big final question.

[00:48:06] But yeah, when you hear people talking about addiction, you know, they talk about filling

[00:48:11] a hole in their life.

[00:48:13] Right.

[00:48:13] And that seems to be, that relates, I think, exactly to what you just said and people seeking

[00:48:20] out fame to fill that hole like that they have.

[00:48:24] In terms of your own journey with sobriety, you know, we talked a little bit about where

[00:48:33] did you redirect that, that energy, but what did you find in life to, to, to sort of fill

[00:48:43] that hole that was being occupied by drug and drink?

[00:48:48] It's a great question.

[00:48:50] Beautifully put.

[00:48:51] It's very easy to answer it because there's a hole in your life and you, you can't find,

[00:48:57] you can't find yourself in love with yourself.

[00:49:02] And I don't mean egoically.

[00:49:04] I mean, you have to know what you want to do and what will make you feel good when you

[00:49:10] do it.

[00:49:10] So therefore, if you're on drugs, how can you, because, you know, you can have the most

[00:49:16] spiritualized person in the world who will, after three hours of being in somebody's house

[00:49:21] and there's no more coke left and they turn into a lunatic, you, you realize that that's,

[00:49:26] this is a dreadful thing.

[00:49:28] Now I saw that at many times.

[00:49:30] That's what struck me was what I'm, I'm, I'm snorting something that's going to make

[00:49:36] me feel like me and, and be fabulous or wonderful for 20 minutes.

[00:49:42] It's an absurdity.

[00:49:44] You know, the drug world is an absurdity and anybody doing it is out of control.

[00:49:49] The reason is though, I believe that why you get to that position is because you don't

[00:49:54] love yourself.

[00:49:55] You don't give a shit about yourself.

[00:49:57] You don't know what to do with yourself.

[00:49:58] Even if you're the best tight walker in town, you're going to fall off one of these days

[00:50:02] and that's in your head all of the time, as opposed to somebody who is very, very confident

[00:50:07] and will never fall off that tight rope.

[00:50:10] And I never fell off that tight rope.

[00:50:11] I've, I've, I've slipped and hung onto it.

[00:50:14] It's funny, you know, but I got back on the rope and back and, and went into the whole

[00:50:22] thing about, I don't want to escape.

[00:50:24] I want to do the opposite of escapism.

[00:50:27] I want to be in the moment right here, right now with Christian Modi's whole thing.

[00:50:32] You know, there's no yesterday, there's no today.

[00:50:34] There's just what we've got right here.

[00:50:35] And I've seen it in others.

[00:50:37] I've seen the most talented people in the world, you know, these wonderful different rock

[00:50:43] and rollers, Brian Jones being the epitome of that, you know, I mean, losing the consciousness,

[00:50:49] losing it, losing this, losing that.

[00:50:52] Sid Barrett.

[00:50:53] Sid, I mean, and it's not just rock and roll, you know, it's, you know, the Irish bass player,

[00:50:59] what was his name?

[00:51:00] You know, wonderful.

[00:51:03] Phil Lennett?

[00:51:04] Yeah.

[00:51:04] And I've known all these guys, you know, and I've seen them at that peak when they're out

[00:51:08] there in the middle and they're playing and they're beautiful and they're doing what

[00:51:11] they love.

[00:51:12] And then afterwards they're in the dressing room and they just, you know, they turn into

[00:51:15] another creature.

[00:51:16] Well, that is no good.

[00:51:18] You have got to be the same person wherever you go.

[00:51:20] And that same person has to be loved by you.