Episode 686: Kenny Wayne Shepherd

[00:00:12] We were just out for four dates, so my hands are all in shape. So there's no need to rehearse or practice because I just did four in a row. So it's just a matter of like, you know, it's a different tour, so a different wardrobe, different equipment. Yeah, and then just trying to sort. Really priority number one for me is making sure everything is sorted with my family at home before I leave for a month.

[00:00:38] You have six kids, is that right?

[00:00:41] Mm-hmm.

[00:00:43] And every time I talk to somebody who has, every time I speak with a touring musician who has kids, they always tell me that in a weird way the pandemic was kind of a blessing, you know, because they actually like got a chance. And that's gotta be one of the most difficult parts of your job is you just don't get to necessarily be around like other parents.

[00:01:09] Well, I think it's up to up to the individual to figure out how to make the most of whatever opportunities you've been given, whether it's family time or time on stage, right? Or entertaining the people. So, um, I mean, yeah, it can be like, for example, I'm going to miss my daughter's 17th birthday this month because I'll be out on tour. But this is the lifestyle that I've chosen. And, uh, my family has grown up with that. And they don't take it personally. And they don't take it personally. And they don't take it personally. And they don't take it personally.

[00:01:39] And we make up for it. Like we make up for it on the front end or the back end. So it's like, we will celebrate her birthday. She knows that I'm not choosing to miss out on her birthday, but I'm doing my career, which is, you know, it's my obligation, both to my fans and I have an obligation to my family.

[00:01:55] So I try and fulfill both those as best I can and strike the right balance between my family life and my professional life. And I think we've, we struck a really good balance. My wife and I put our heads together early on and we, we tried different things like certain amount of weeks gone, certain amount of weeks home and figured out what really seems to work for us.

[00:02:14] In a sense, like being forced to be home that you were able to really spend a lot of quality time during, during the pandemic. I mean, specifically.

[00:02:22] Oh yeah. That was great. Now I think it's kind of like, uh, it was great for family time. Uh, I'm not saying it was, yeah, taken as a whole, probably not the best thing, but yeah.

[00:02:34] But it just kind of depended on how you dealt with it, you know, and how you chose to, how you chose to deal with it with your family, which was everybody's own personal choice. We chose to, uh, take the opportunity to give our kids as many lifelong memories as we could.

[00:02:52] So, you know, I've never had that much time off in my life, like since I was a teenager. So to have essentially two years off, almost completely under uninterrupted. Um, there was a lot of opportunity there for us to, you know, spend together as a family and do things.

[00:03:13] So, you know, we went, uh, like at one point, you know, we went, uh, to Sedona and went and stayed out in the desert and went hiking. And then we went, stayed in the Smoky Mountains.

[00:03:23] And, you know, we went to our place in Louisiana and stayed there for, you know, a month. And then we decided to move to Tennessee and, you know, like all these adventures along the way. Um, which I think, you know, when my kids are older, they'll look back and they'll go, man, you know, look at all these cool things that we did. And a lot of it obviously was outdoor stuff. Um, but we, I feel like we, as a family, we made the most of the time that we had been given.

[00:03:50] Yeah. You said you hadn't had that much time off since you were a teenager. And I think that really puts things into perspective. You've got one of those jobs and this is, I think, pretty rare with most people that you've been doing the same thing professionally since I, before you could actually like drink in the clubs that you were playing in.

[00:04:13] And was there ever, was there ever a time when you gave consideration to maybe taking some extended time off?

[00:04:23] Well, I did take some time off. Let's see. It must've been 2003, between 2003, 2004. I took the better part of six months, nine months off, uh, just to kind of like for myself, you know, to get my kind of just recentered.

[00:04:43] Um, you know, I grew up like in the industry as a teenager and, um, you know, in the beginning it was like, uh, all I did was tour. We did like 250 shows a year for like five years straight.

[00:04:56] You know, I would sleep in my own bed, maybe three weeks out of the year, which was like, fine. It's like, I didn't have a family. I mean, I didn't really have any reason to be home. My, my only purpose was to get out there and make music. And that's all I really wanted to do anyways. But, you know, after a while, you know, five years straight of that, um, six years straight, it started to, and the lifestyle, you know, staying up late, you know, sleep, sleeping in or, you know, uh, getting on this plane, that plane and drinking and partying.

[00:05:26] And doing all the things that you're supposed to do when you're a musician, it seems like you're, you think you're supposed to do all this stuff. And that stuff kind of caught up with me. And so I just needed to take a break and kind of focus on myself.

[00:05:40] So for me, that was a nine month. Ooh, that was about a nine month period. And, um, and I made a, right. I started making the fourth album, the place you're in, um, which was basically a straight hit rock record. And that also there was a lot going on for me at the time. And that was the first album that I stepped up and sang lead vocals on almost the whole record.

[00:05:58] And, uh, so a lot of changes were happening personally, professionally, stuff like that. And I think I came out the other side of that whole experience, like a much better person.

[00:06:07] Especially doing what you do for a living and especially that timeframe. Um, it has to be a difficult decision to make, to take time off because.

[00:06:20] You know, in, in one sense, the worst thing you can do is kind of lose that momentum that you spent your early years building up.

[00:06:28] Yeah.

[00:06:29] Was that, was that a fear at all at the time?

[00:06:33] Well, I mean, it was a thought, but it wasn't like I was going to go disappear and, and move to another part of the world. And like, you know, uh, but, but I knew that I had to like, I just couldn't live at the pace I was living.

[00:06:46] You know what I mean? Um, and so in order for there to be a future for me and my band, uh, then I needed to, I needed to kind of reassess like how things were happening and, you know, how I was living my life.

[00:07:01] And, you know, that was the point that I decided to get, I got sober. I stopped drinking. I haven't had a drink or any, anything in my system stronger than Advil in 21 years.

[00:07:10] And so, uh, I just felt like, you know, change needed to happen and that was, there was no future if that didn't happen. Right. And so that's pretty much everything else was secondary. Like, you know, whether or not, uh, there was as much momentum to come back to or not didn't really matter at that point.

[00:07:31] Because the only thing that mattered was, is that I had some adjustments I needed to make in my life in order for me to continue.

[00:07:37] I quit drinking myself about five years ago and it not that much in my life has changed because of it. But, um, one of the things that did is I, I, this is obviously not at all equivalent to what you do, but in terms of like getting up in front of people, even like singing karaoke, it always helps for me to have a little bit.

[00:07:56] In my system to kind of break those, those nerves, but obviously.

[00:08:02] Liquid courage.

[00:08:04] Yeah. I look at courage, but you cross, you know, you can cross that threshold into having had too much. Um, and what you do is, is very technical. What, what impact did drinking have on your ability to perform?

[00:08:17] Uh, I don't think it had much to be honest with you. I think if anything, it, it, it, it had the potential to hinder my abilities. I feel like I'm, I'm a far better player now.

[00:08:27] Uh, than I ever was then, you know? Um, I mean, I don't think I ever got, I don't think I ever got on stage and embarrassed myself, you know, but I mean, I can look at, I can, there's just a level of awareness, a different level of awareness or a lack of awareness back then.

[00:08:43] Like I was watching some old video on YouTube the other day, like super old back when I was drinking and stuff. And just the tempos that I'm starting the songs at are just so off from what they should be.

[00:08:55] Whether one song is like super slow and it's like, Oh my gosh, how did, how did I ever think that that was, that that sounded right? You know?

[00:09:03] Uh, or maybe another one is like super fast and super rushed and there's no, you know, the pockets missing. And, and so, but I don't think I ever got up and like, you know, did anything completely ridiculous or embarrassed myself or my craft.

[00:09:18] But like, there's nothing impeding my ability to focus a hundred percent on the moment and what I'm supposed to be doing now. And so I think at that, with that in mind, I'm able to fulfill my fullest potential.

[00:09:33] I assume a lot of that too, is there's just looking back on your early career. There's just the benefit of decades of hindsight of doing this professionally that, you know, regardless of whether or not you're drinking, it's really easy to be critical of your past performances.

[00:09:53] Well, yeah, of course. I mean, we're always our own worst critic or elite. We should be if we strive for, to be the best we can be. And I don't, you know, I'm easy on myself. Um, you know, I don't sit there. You can't live in the past and you can't live in the future. The best we can do is live in the now. Right. And so, uh, I'm pretty good at that. I don't have a lot of regrets. I actually, I don't really, I can't think of any, because like, if I thought I regretted something, I came to terms with that and just realized that was a part of it.

[00:10:24] It's not healthy to dwell on that stuff.

[00:10:27] Yeah. So, you know, I can look back and I go, Oh my gosh, that's, you know, geez, like, but, but then I, in the same breath, I'm like, Oh, but it sounds so much better now. And that's what it took to get me where I'm at today. Like, you know, so that's fine. And thankfully, you know, it's like there was no harm done along the way, really. So, uh, it's all good. I have to say that for me, I, I don't, I think a lot of people don't musicians in particular, they drink, they use it.

[00:10:53] That stuff is like, um, it's, it's like to, to help them loosen up.

[00:10:57] Like a lubricant.

[00:10:58] But they think it's going to make them creative. But the problem is a lot of guys get into music, drinking and partying and doing drugs or whatever from the get go. So then when they're faced with the idea of trying to make music without that stuff, it can be really scary because they don't think they can do it without it.

[00:11:15] But like, you know, I got on stage first time I got on stage, I was 13 years old. I had never been drunk or done any drugs or anything like that. So I knew that the benefit of knowing, like, I've done this before without any of that stuff. So I have no doubts that I'm capable of doing it without that stuff.

[00:11:32] And so my life, and I feel like I'm just so much more able to be present and I don't have to, like, I just know that, like, I'm not going to go and do something, you know, tonight or tomorrow, assuming that I don't choose to drink.

[00:11:49] Like, I'm not going to, there's no wreckage that's going to follow me into the next day. You know what I mean? And yeah, I mean, like, I don't know. I mean, there's bands getting in fights on stage, you know, there's a lot of it.

[00:12:05] Who was that? Somebody just the other day.

[00:12:09] James Addiction.

[00:12:10] Yeah. So, I mean, as making the rounds, it's like, I don't know. I mean, I know Dave. Oh, I knew Dave.

[00:12:18] Dave Navarro. Like, you know, we would kind of frequent some of the same spots in my early days of living in California. Nice enough guy. I don't know anything well enough about any of those guys to try and act like I know what's going on.

[00:12:33] But, like, I don't know Perry Farrell, but does he drink? Does he party? I don't know.

[00:12:41] I certainly know there have been times he did. But watching that video, I mean, you're right. I don't have that kind of insight either.

[00:12:48] But it's like, Dave does exactly what one should do in that situation. Like, he comes off very well.

[00:12:55] He's like, what? He's like, what's that? What's going on, bro? You know? And I mean, rightfully so.

[00:13:03] But, like, regardless of what's going on with those guys and their band, like, that's – I feel confident nothing like that's going to happen on my stage.

[00:13:11] Just because everybody in my organization is, you know, either sober – most people are sober – you know, or they just don't participate, you know?

[00:13:20] And everybody's married and has families. And we just live – relatively, as far as rock bands go, we live a relatively boring rock star existence because it's a very family-friendly atmosphere.

[00:13:32] And we just – I mean, I got all that stuff out of my system early, you know?

[00:13:36] And – but, yeah, not drinking, not doing drugs. It eliminates so many opportunities to have to, like – for things to go sideways.

[00:13:46] And then you have to go clean up a mess, you know? And I just don't have to worry about that now.

[00:13:50] Another thing that seems to help with bands or groups of musicians who play together for a long time is really establishing what the dynamic is.

[00:14:02] You know, obviously, it's your name, although you are largely playing with the same group of – groups of guys.

[00:14:09] I've read some interviews that you've done, and it seems like you're good at deferring to people's expertise in terms of, like, horn players on these last two records.

[00:14:20] You're not a horn player, so, you know, kind of trusting the process a bit.

[00:14:25] But bands seem to function much better when there's a dynamic in place, when it's clear who's doing what, you know, who's sort of writing the songs, who's, in a certain sense, steering the ship.

[00:14:39] Yeah. It can be, yeah. I mean, to be honest, I mean, at the end of the day, I'm the one that signed the record deal.

[00:14:48] You know, when I was 16 years old with the record company.

[00:14:51] And, you know, we put the band together.

[00:14:53] I wrote the songs, produced the albums.

[00:14:56] You know, I didn't sing, you know, for several years.

[00:14:59] I mean, I sang one song on my first album.

[00:15:01] I sang background vocal.

[00:15:01] I wasn't the lead singer in my own band, but I was the force behind the band, behind the songs, behind the music.

[00:15:07] Like, you know, all the parts.

[00:15:09] I mean, everything that basically makes my band what it is.

[00:15:14] You know, it's a collective effort.

[00:15:16] But it's like being the head coach, you know, or being the quarterback.

[00:15:20] It's like somebody's driving the machine, you know.

[00:15:23] And ultimately, that's always been me.

[00:15:25] And I found, like, I had actually a different experience for the first time in my entire career.

[00:15:30] I had a side project with Stephen Stills from Crossbills & Nash and Barry Goldberg.

[00:15:35] And we put together a band.

[00:15:37] It was the three of us.

[00:15:37] And it was called The Rides.

[00:15:39] And it was a blues rock band.

[00:15:40] And we did two records and three tours.

[00:15:42] And that was the first time I've ever been part of a band where it was like everybody, every founding member of the band, which there was three of us, had a, what do you say, an equal say in what goes on.

[00:15:56] In my organization, I'm always open to people's suggestions or ideas or whatever because I surround myself with incredibly talented people, you know, because they help make me even better at what I do.

[00:16:10] So I value their opinion and I value their input.

[00:16:14] But at the end of the day, I'm the one making the final call.

[00:16:17] But that was the first time in The Rides where I had been in a situation where it's like if I wanted to make a decision, I had to also, like, get, you know, at least one of these two other guys to agree.

[00:16:27] Now, given we pretty much were all on the same page with everything, so it wasn't that difficult.

[00:16:32] But I could see how, like, back in the day, if you're in a band and everybody's an equal partner and you add, you know, substances, you know, clouding people's, you know, judgment and inflaming people's moods and stuff.

[00:16:49] I mean, it can just complicate things.

[00:16:50] That's why you see these legendary bands that have these feuds that last decades and decades and they're bitter and it's like, but a lot of stuff was just drug-fueled, you know, activity that, like, if they had been in a different state of mind, a lot of that baggage wouldn't have probably actually exist, you know.

[00:17:07] But it is what it is.

[00:17:09] But, yeah, at the end of the day, my business model has always been, like, I want to hear everybody's input for sure, but at the end of the day, I'm going to make the decision that I feel is best.

[00:17:19] And it makes it a lot easier because there's no politics.

[00:17:22] There's no having to negotiate.

[00:17:24] Steven Stills is a really interesting, for, I assume, countless reasons, person to be in a band with.

[00:17:31] But one of them, you know, given his history in bands, Buffalo Springfield, Crosby, Stills, and Ash, like, he's been, I think he's been through the ringer and he's worked with, obviously, some difficult people.

[00:17:42] And there have been times when they were and weren't together.

[00:17:48] He must have had really good insight into those kinds of dynamics.

[00:17:53] Well, absolutely.

[00:17:54] I mean, it was fascinating, actually.

[00:17:57] Like, I hear a lot of stories from him, and, I mean, I always loved being around people like him.

[00:18:03] I mean, most of my career, I was always the youngest guy in the room.

[00:18:07] I was always the youngest musician.

[00:18:10] So I always knew that there was so much to learn from these people who had been doing it longer than me.

[00:18:15] And the same was true when working with Steven.

[00:18:18] Even though our relationship is more like he's a big brother and I'm a little brother.

[00:18:24] And we really have that kind of brotherly love for one another.

[00:18:28] But, like, you know, I still look up to him and his experience and, you know, who he is and what he's accomplished and what he's done.

[00:18:36] And so in the studio, I was, like, literally taking notes and watching and, you know, paying very close attention to the ideas when he would bring something forward, you know.

[00:18:46] Because, like, he comes from an era where those guys were, like, pioneers.

[00:18:50] They were, like, record-making pioneers back then.

[00:18:53] Yeah.

[00:18:53] And they taught themselves how to do all that stuff.

[00:18:56] And then, yeah.

[00:18:57] I mean, I'm sure he had different dynamics in his previous bands, right?

[00:19:01] I mean, probably very famously known dynamics.

[00:19:04] I haven't read any of those guys' books.

[00:19:07] So I don't know the ins and outs of it.

[00:19:09] And you always hear one side of the story anyway when you're reading his book.

[00:19:13] But, you know, I could see that it was definitely an adjustment.

[00:19:19] Like, you know, our new dynamic as a band was a little bit of an adjustment.

[00:19:23] It wasn't something he was used to.

[00:19:25] But same for me.

[00:19:27] It was an adjustment for me.

[00:19:28] Saying you were the youngest person in the room most of the time is almost underselling it.

[00:19:33] But, again, when you're, like, 13 or 16, and certainly in cases where you're playing with, you know, Stills or B.B. King, you know, obviously very seasoned musicians.

[00:19:45] When you first came along, did you feel like you had something to prove?

[00:19:53] Not really.

[00:19:56] I did feel like that something, not with everybody, like, B.B. King was incredibly welcoming.

[00:20:04] I mean, you know, of course, he's the king of the blues.

[00:20:06] He has nothing to prove to anybody.

[00:20:07] Yeah, sure.

[00:20:08] I mean, he was the least egotistical person I've ever met, especially for being a household name around the world, right?

[00:20:17] Incredible example for somebody like me, a young, impressionable guy aspiring to do what he's done.

[00:20:26] But there was, like, yeah, with other musicians, you would just kind of notice.

[00:20:33] I mean, there was this unspoken, there was a vibe there where it was like, yes, obviously this guy's skeptical.

[00:20:41] He's, I'm going to have to prove myself to him, but my intention wasn't set to go out and just prove myself to people.

[00:20:49] My intention was to just do what I love to do and play music.

[00:20:53] And in the process of doing that, I was able to prove myself to these people who had this skepticism towards me because I was young and doing this kind of music.

[00:21:05] So, but it was there, but it wasn't on my behalf.

[00:21:08] Certainly not.

[00:21:08] Now, when I got my first album and I recorded that record, you know, nobody knew what to expect.

[00:21:15] I was like an unknown artist.

[00:21:17] I was, you know, like the majority of the world had no idea who I was.

[00:21:22] And then I wasn't a lead singer.

[00:21:24] I was the namesake of the band, but I wasn't the singer.

[00:21:27] And I was like, you know, 17 when I recorded it, 18 doing blues, blues rock.

[00:21:32] You know, it had been five years since Stevie Ray Vaughan had passed.

[00:21:36] There was a big void, but like nobody had come along.

[00:21:39] You know, are they going to accept me?

[00:21:41] Because he's obviously a big influence on me.

[00:21:44] You know, there were so many question marks.

[00:21:47] And then, you know, we had some success.

[00:21:49] We had some real success, like sold half a million copies.

[00:21:52] Album went gold.

[00:21:53] First single went up to the top five on the rock charts.

[00:21:55] And then, so then in the transition from the first album to the second, I did have the mentality.

[00:22:02] And you would hope that like somebody young, I mean, that's what you want from youth, you know, is this like determination and this kind of like, I don't know, just like, but I had the, I made the transition from like, okay, now I know I have an opportunity here.

[00:22:17] And I am going on this next album.

[00:22:19] I'm going to prove to everybody why I deserve to be here.

[00:22:24] Right.

[00:22:24] Because there was a lot of people, well, you know, he's young.

[00:22:27] Can he, can he sustain it?

[00:22:29] Is it just hype?

[00:22:30] You know, have they just done a good job of hyping them up?

[00:22:33] So like, you know, when you have all these questions thrown at you and this, you know, people like on, hmm, I don't know.

[00:22:38] Well, then you go, oh, no, I'm going to show you like, you know, I've earned this and I've, and this is why I'm earning it, you know, and this is why I deserve to be where I'm at.

[00:22:49] And so, and I think we firmly established that with the success of the second album.

[00:22:55] And, and then, you know, it's just been a gradual release over the years of any kind of need to prove myself.

[00:23:03] You know, I've been doing it 30 years now and it's like, really like once that's gone, that's good for like the fire that you need to like get out there, you know, and just bring that kind of determination, that fire and that young feisty attitude to the music.

[00:23:18] But like, there's also something to be said for like getting past that and then just being able to like not feel like you have to prove anything and just make the music for the sake of the music, you know, a hundred percent.

[00:23:30] Maybe early on, again, I doubt, I'm certain this isn't an issue for you anymore, but there always seems to be this idea of authenticity around the blues and what is and isn't authentic.

[00:23:45] Was that, was that sort of part of that, that kind of not struggle, but that, that attempt to really establish yourself?

[00:23:54] Well, the thing is, is like, I mean, it's all subjective.

[00:23:59] It depends on who you're talking to.

[00:24:00] I mean, to this day, there'll be people that are blues purists that will tell you that Kenny Wayne Shepherd is not blues artists, you know, or that.

[00:24:08] You weren't born in Mississippi in 1850.

[00:24:10] Yeah.

[00:24:11] Yeah.

[00:24:11] You know, it's like if I'm not doing, you know, every song is not a one, four, five, you know, shuffle or this or that, and it doesn't have this exact format and sound like that and look like that, then you're not blues.

[00:24:26] And that's fine.

[00:24:27] You know, it's like, that's, that's their opinion.

[00:24:29] And, and there's plenty of music for those people out there.

[00:24:33] And we even make very traditional blues music as well.

[00:24:37] But from the get go, I mean, I've never, blues is like my first musical love.

[00:24:44] So like why it's always in my conversation and it's always in my music, but, but like the music that I made from day one has never been a hundred percent traditional blues, you know?

[00:24:54] And, uh, that's never necessarily been my goal, but my goal has been to always share the message of blues music and to always give credit to the artists that inspired me to do what I do.

[00:25:10] And the 99% of those artists are blues musicians, you know, and those are the people that inspired me to make the music that I do make, whether it's traditional blues or contemporary blues or rock or whatever.

[00:25:24] I, I've always, it's been my message to give credit where credit is due and to hopefully turn younger people on to that genre and to those artists, which then in return helps continue, you know,

[00:25:38] the cycle of keeping the music going and infusing with new young talent, new life into the genre, you know, for sure.

[00:25:48] That same group of people who are critical, are they also maybe the ones who push back when you want to do something that's more kind of like fully rock?

[00:25:59] Absolutely.

[00:26:00] But most of those people don't like me anyways.

[00:26:03] Right.

[00:26:04] Like those people that like, but I do because I don't fit the, I don't fit the bill.

[00:26:10] Yeah.

[00:26:11] I'm not.

[00:26:11] So it doesn't matter.

[00:26:13] Like even if I played absolute traditional blues, a hundred percent, those certain people are just never going to accept me as a blues musician because like, because I am me and that's fine.

[00:26:25] Like that is absolutely fine.

[00:26:28] And those people are doing good work in their support of the artists that they believe fit that description.

[00:26:38] You know, they are supporting the people they deem worthy of being labeled a blues musician.

[00:26:44] And that's fine because everybody needs an audience to play for.

[00:26:48] And there's more than enough fans in this world because everybody, you know, I mean, everybody on the planet has a potential to listen to your music.

[00:26:57] So there's more than enough fans to go around.

[00:26:59] And you know what?

[00:26:59] There's some of my fans that don't maybe not necessarily want to listen to, you know, really stripped down acoustic blues all the time either.

[00:27:09] They love hearing me push the boundaries.

[00:27:12] My greatest example early on in my life was Jimi Hendrix.

[00:27:16] He's the perfect example, even more so than Stevie Ray Vaughan to me, of a guy that was fundamentally rooted in the blues and what he did, but took it and did so much more with it and took it into so many different directions.

[00:27:32] And that was, that was like, I was like this, that gave me permission.

[00:27:37] I was like, yes.

[00:27:38] And you look at Billy Gibbons and you look at Stevie Ray Vaughan and like so many guys since then.

[00:27:42] It's like, you know, I say every night, it's like nothing, not what we do.

[00:27:46] What we do is not always traditional blues, right?

[00:27:49] But the blues is the foundation of every single thing that we do.

[00:27:53] We start with the blues and then we go from there.

[00:27:55] And that's what I believe makes my music.

[00:27:58] It sets my music apart from some other artists.

[00:28:01] It's just like, because we're constantly trying different things and we're constantly trying to break new ground and make different sounds and bring a fresh approach.

[00:28:10] You know, starting with blues music first.