Episode 688: Anna Butterss

[00:00:12] I'm from Nashville. I've been in Nashville for the last two weeks doing a run of shows at the Ryman with Jason as well. We do it every year, like eight shows. So just finished that on Sunday.

[00:00:21] It's kind of a casual, cool thing to just drop in a conversation.

[00:00:26] Sorry. Sorry. That's what we're coming from. It was fun. I did it last year. I joined him last summer. So the Ryman run last year.

[00:00:39] He's been doing it for like 10 years, I think. But I was very new to the band last year and it was pretty stressful having to learn a bunch of new songs. But this year it was much more chill, which was great. I felt much better about it.

[00:00:54] Are you in the band? How does that work? You're officially a part of it? No? You're shaking your head.

[00:00:59] I'm in the band, baby.

[00:01:00] I'm in the band.

[00:01:00] You are in the band. That was a positive. It's so funny. It's like one of those things, you know, I was like, oh, you know, I'll do some light Googling and do some research on what I'm doing.

[00:01:09] Some Reddit posts.

[00:01:10] Yeah. Well, I realized, I thought it was obvious at a certain point because, you know, we did some new band photographs and, you know, so there's like a picture of the band that, you know, a picture of me and everyone else all over the place.

[00:01:23] And I didn't kind of realize that people were still, I guess we never officially announced it.

[00:01:29] But, but, but yeah, no one else has been playing bass for over a year. So it's just me.

[00:01:34] What does that mean in a situation like that where, you know, it's a musical project that's obviously like very sort of attached to his name? What does it mean to be a part of that band?

[00:01:44] Yeah, it is interesting. It's kind of like, it's kind of a middle ground between like it being, I don't know why the example that springs to mind is the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

[00:01:53] But, you know, it's, it's.

[00:01:55] You're in LA.

[00:01:57] I guess I'm in LA. Yeah.

[00:01:58] I'm always thinking about Flea, like just a little bit, honestly.

[00:02:02] Yeah. So it's, you know, it's not like that kind of equal membership.

[00:02:05] We all make decisions, you know, it's, it's still like his band, but it is, it is much more of a band than the other two is that I had been doing, which is, which is very much, it's like Andrew Byrd and whoever his band happens to be or Jenny Lewis, stuff like that.

[00:02:20] You know, whether, whether they're changing the band a lot. I mean, this band, the other guys, Will Johnson joined at the same time as me, but the other guys have been there for between 10 and 17 years.

[00:02:32] So it's, it's, it's very much, it's very much a band, but yeah, he's, you know, it's, it's, he's writing the songs.

[00:02:38] Um, yeah, so it's, it's kind of in this kind of interesting middle ground. It's, it's, um, but it's, it's cool. It kind of works for me. I don't, you know, I don't think I have the capacity right now to, to commit myself just to being in like one band, uh, you know, at least a band like that, that's playing so many shows, but, but it works quite well for, for me to not have to write the music and just get to play.

[00:03:05] I assume that he tours pretty frequently though. Does that not take up a lot of your time?

[00:03:10] Oh, it certainly does. Yeah. It takes up a lot of my time, but it's, you know, I don't have to make any decisions about anything, I guess like emotionally, it's not a lot of, I don't have to think about it that much other than like being there playing the shows.

[00:03:24] I don't have to write any music. I don't have any like, you know, financial stake in it and in a way, you know, it's not like, yeah, it, yeah, it's a little, it's a little different, I guess.

[00:03:38] It sounds like it's a case though, where that kind of the rest of your schedule in a sense kind of revolves around the decisions that Jason's kind of making on his end as far as touring.

[00:03:49] Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's my, yeah, that's like, I've committed to being in that band that is kind of, um, yeah, everything else does kind of go around that. Um, you know, and it's, it's, I'm still kind of figuring out how to fit in my other projects.

[00:04:06] Cause I do have, you know, some, some other things going on, but, um, but, you know, at least he schedules, Jason's team scheduled things pretty far in advance.

[00:04:15] So, uh, it's nothing's really been dropped on me last minute, which is, which is helpful. And then the other projects I'm playing in, you know, the other members also doing a bunch of other things.

[00:04:26] So it's always going to be a bit of a juggling act trying to, trying to play shows with SM, SML, for example. So, you know, it's hard.

[00:04:32] But I'm always curious about kind of the, the, the machinations. Um, how, how do you prioritize, you know, and do you need to carve out a certain amount of time per week or month or year to do things that are just purely you?

[00:04:49] Yeah. I mean, it's hard. It's, it's, it's been really difficult. Um, you know, and playing with Jason hasn't been like, I've been touring with other bands for the past six years or so. So it's, it's not like I've had a ton of time to anyway. Um, but it's hard. I mean, yeah, it's, I think things just move at a slower pace. You know, I just put out a record and that took me, you know, about a year and a half to make because I was doing it on the like week I had off from tour every,

[00:05:18] you know, like once a month or whatever it was. So I don't know. It's just, yeah, it's hard. I haven't, I haven't found a perfect solution.

[00:05:28] You haven't mastered it.

[00:05:29] Yeah. No, I haven't mastered it. I mean, I don't know if it's, you know, it's always, everything's always going to be a compromise. You know, there's like a perfect situation where you're just like, wow, I can just create exactly what I want to and do someone else's project.

[00:05:40] What I want to, but you know, I, yeah, I mean, at the moment I'm, you know, I've just released a record. So I'm, I'm not trying to fit in like working on new music at the moment, which is, um, which is nice, but I'll start thinking about that soon. And it's just going to take, you know, it's just going to be like, oh, I can put out a record, you know, once every two or three years, not like once a year, which is also fine with me.

[00:06:02] I mean, I suspect for you, as with a lot of people that having lived through the pandemic and having had moments where you had just absolutely nothing but time on your hand, like this is a pretty good problem to have at the end of the day that too many people want to call you for work.

[00:06:20] Yes, I'd much rather it this way. I've, yeah, I've been even not in the pandemic, you know, just, it took me a long time, um, just in LA to get myself kind of set up to where I wasn't worried about not enough people calling.

[00:06:32] So yeah, I'd much rather have, I'd much rather have this problem.

[00:06:35] How do you get your, your foot in the door? I mean, obviously, you know, you move to a city like LA, it's, it's, it's an industry city in a lot of ways. There's a lot of folks out there, but like, how do you, how do you get on those lists?

[00:06:49] Um, just time spent being part of the community, I think. So I don't think there are a whole lot of shortcuts, you know? Um, yeah, it took me a long time. It took me a long time, uh, to start playing.

[00:07:02] And then it took me a longer time to, to start playing things that I was really interested in. But yeah, I don't know. I, yeah, it was really just like going to a lot of shows, meeting a lot of musicians, playing a lot of gigs at restaurants.

[00:07:19] And then eventually, you know, after like five or so years, enough people would call me. I always kind of thought of, thought about it, like, as it, it kind of doesn't matter how far down you are on someone's list.

[00:07:34] You know, if people are going to call, like eventually you'll get called for something and then, you know, and I always just kind of saw that as an opportunity to, um, you know, like to, to make a good connection or just to, yeah, I don't know, to kind of like prove myself.

[00:07:51] I felt a little bit like I had to prove myself, um, you know, a lot of times. Um, I think that's a gendered thing, uh, for sure in this industry, especially in the jazz world, you know, other people not expecting me to be good at what I do.

[00:08:06] I think just like other people being, you know, it's happened a lot of times. It doesn't happen so much now because I've, you know, I've been doing it for longer. I'm also not as young. Like I moved to LA when I was 23 and I probably looked about 15, so I can kind of understand some of it. Um, but you know, there are a lot of times you're playing a gig with someone and they're not very friendly to, or they weren't very friendly to me before we started playing. And then afterwards, suddenly they wanted to be a lot friendlier. And, um, you know, I think it's a, yeah, I think there was definitely a gendered element of that.

[00:08:34] You know, there's probably like a, uh, being Australian element of it as well. Um,

[00:08:41] You got two strikes going against you.

[00:08:43] I know, right. No, but, uh, you know, I think just, yeah, just, I've been in LA for 10 years now. So, uh, yeah, it's just been like a lot of time and I spent the first, certainly like the first five years going to a lot of shows, meeting a lot of people and just, yeah, you know, I would do much more like playing sessions at people's houses and stuff like that.

[00:09:04] But I don't really have the time to, uh, in LA, honestly, to do that stuff anymore. But, um, but that definitely helped.

[00:09:11] Do you feel like that made you push yourself harder? That you had these things working against you? That you had to hustle even more than you might have otherwise?

[00:09:20] Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, I think anyone, honestly, in LA, you just have to hustle. I think, um, it, it really just taught me more about like what kind of people I wanted to be spending time with and, and, uh, what kind of scenes I wanted to be in. You know, it's not a nice feeling to have to kind of, I don't know, just kind of not be respected in a way, like coming into something. Um,

[00:09:49] so I think, yeah, I think it just kind of taught me like what I deserve in, in terms of respect or what everyone deserves in terms of respect. Like, I think you should always give someone the benefit of the doubt, right? You know, it's, it's kind of shitty to come in expecting someone to do a bad job.

[00:10:04] Um, yeah, but people do it, you know,

[00:10:07] I see where you're coming from. You know, the, the gender thing makes a lot of sense. It's very male dominated, you know, to say, even like in Jason's bands, um, you know, where it's, it's a lot of guys are, uh, how serious were you about the Australian thing? Do you feel like that really was something that was working against you?

[00:10:25] I don't know. That was a little tongue in cheek. I, um, you know, I, I started off in the jazz world, uh, like solidly in the jazz world, like nothing else. And I do think that, you know, I think, yeah, certainly it's, you know, coming into all, trying to play seriously a music that's like black American music as a white Australian person is maybe not questionable, but I think it's something that, you know, I was definitely thinking about, like, what is my place in this music?

[00:10:56] What, you know, how am I approaching this? What, what does it mean for me to be playing this music? Um, yeah, I don't know. It's just, I don't have like a solid, like answer to all of these questions, but it's just, it was things I've been thinking about.

[00:11:14] It makes a lot of sense. And obviously jazz in particular is, it's a music that, that when people discuss it, it deals with, you know, authenticity. Um, it sounds like that was maybe something that you struggled with early on. Um, how did you find your place in, in there? Or did you realize that like at the end of the day that that shit doesn't really matter that much?

[00:11:40] I don't know. It's, it's something I still feel, I still feel like I'm in the process of, you know, um, I don't, I don't know if for me, it's, it's a kind of something that I'll figure out and then I will have figured it out. I think it's always kind of reassessing like what my relationship with music is, with jazz is, you know, I'm getting a lot of questions around the music that I put out on like, is this jazz? What does jazz mean? What is, you know, is it time to redefine jazz?

[00:12:09] I get a lot of those kinds of questions and I don't know if I'm really like the person to, to answer those.

[00:12:18] But yeah, I think, I think I've made peace with the fact that like, I think I'm doing something that to me is interesting and, and, you know, at least is interesting enough to enough other people that it's, it's worth me putting out records and doing it.

[00:12:32] But, um, but yeah, but it's, it's kind of, I'm drawing just from a wide range of, of different music that I listen to and my own experiences.

[00:12:42] And it's going to be shaped by being white and being Australian and having grown up there.

[00:12:48] And then also by like, you know, my many years trying to play jazz or playing jazz, I guess.

[00:12:53] Obviously the racial element isn't there, but, uh, a case could probably be made as an Australian coming in and playing, you know, ostensibly country music in Nashville.

[00:13:04] There might be some kind of disconnect there as well.

[00:13:08] Oh, certainly.

[00:13:10] Yeah.

[00:13:10] I mean, much more honestly for me, because I didn't grow up listening to any of that music.

[00:13:14] Um, uh, a little bit of Americana, but not much.

[00:13:18] Um, definitely not really country music and definitely not rock and roll.

[00:13:22] Uh, which I've been really upfront about.

[00:13:25] I mean, you know, at the end of the day, they called me to, or Jason asked me to be in the band.

[00:13:31] You know, I wasn't going out and being like, please let me join your band.

[00:13:35] You know, um, I mean, I'm thrilled to be there, but like it, you know, I, if I think maybe the interesting thing for him is that I do come from a different kind of perspective.

[00:13:47] I do come from a different range of influences and that maybe like add something to the music that wouldn't have otherwise been there.

[00:13:54] Um, but yeah, it's, I don't know.

[00:13:56] I, I've, I found myself, I, at a certain point, I kind of just decided to say yes to things or, or like come from a,

[00:14:06] kind of a standpoint of just of saying yes and trying new things kind of.

[00:14:11] And if like, I don't like them, I can always stop doing them.

[00:14:14] And the thing with Jason also was supposed to be like, I was supposed to be filling in for five shows.

[00:14:19] Like it was not supposed to be a longterm thing at all.

[00:14:22] And it just, it kind of snowballed, but, um, you know, but if it wasn't working, if I didn't like doing it, I would stop.

[00:14:28] Yeah.

[00:14:28] I mean, it strikes me that especially in an instance, like maybe this applies to like a Jenny Lewis as well, to a lesser extent, but where you, as you said last year, prior to doing the string of gigs, you were, you were studying the music.

[00:14:42] You know, that, you know, Jason or anyone who hires you is looking for something kind of specific and is probably looking for whatever your strengths are in the space.

[00:14:58] But it seems like there's a balancing act that has to happen when you're working with, um, a set group of songs that are already out there in the world.

[00:15:08] Yeah, definitely.

[00:15:09] That's definitely true.

[00:15:10] I think, yeah, finding that balance between what the artist wants and what I want, um, is, is a skillset.

[00:15:20] Um, and it's not always, you know, opposed, like those are not always, um, opposing forces.

[00:15:27] Uh, a lot of the time, in fact, for most of the touring I've done, I haven't played on the records.

[00:15:34] I've, I've come in to play songs that have already been recorded.

[00:15:38] Um, so that kind of gives like a good starting point of like, okay, well, this is what, you know, the artist wanted in their recording of this song and how, like what, you know, then listening to it and kind of trying to decide for myself what parts are important or what parts do I think are important?

[00:15:55] What parts do I think I can have some liberty with?

[00:15:58] And then, you know, usually it's a collaborative process.

[00:16:01] I mean, you know, any of those artists will and have told me like, no, I actually need you to play this specific baseline.

[00:16:08] That's important for the song or, or they've told me the opposite.

[00:16:11] Like you'd actually don't need to do that.

[00:16:13] You can, you can do something else there if you want to.

[00:16:15] So it's, it's definitely a, yeah.

[00:16:17] Collaboration.

[00:16:17] What's your sense of what someone, especially someone from outside of jazz, when they bring you on board that they're looking for, that you're kind of bringing to the table that I guess any number of other bass players for hire aren't?

[00:16:32] Hmm.

[00:16:34] Um, that's a good question.

[00:16:36] I mean, I think, I don't know if at this point, I don't know.

[00:16:42] I think, I think most people who are hiring me, uh, not just trying to hire someone who has a jazz background.

[00:16:49] They're like specifically trying to hire me.

[00:16:51] So they've probably heard something in the way that I approach melody, for example.

[00:16:56] Um, I think, I think people have enjoyed, uh, people have enjoyed, I think the flexibility I have with things or the, the kind of, um, you know, I think coming from an improvisational background kind of gives me a lot of, uh, confidence to, to try new things, to change things up.

[00:17:15] Um, which artists often like, um, and yeah, I think the kind of, I think flexibility and, and also just being able to learn songs really quickly.

[00:17:26] Has, has been, um, a useful skill.

[00:17:29] I think.

[00:17:30] Is that flexibility?

[00:17:31] Is that willingness to change things?

[00:17:34] Is, is that a constant to a certain extent in the, you know, when, when you're doing a long tour with somebody, do you feel like your role in the music continues to evolve?

[00:17:43] I definitely do.

[00:17:44] I, I like to think of it like that.

[00:17:46] Um, I'm always looking for new, finding new ways to get through a song or, or, you know, that there'll be like with, um, I'm always looking for new, finding new ways to get through a song.

[00:17:56] Jason songs, you know, there'll be bass lines that I've come across or that, that I've put in.

[00:18:00] That'll be like, Oh, I really like this one.

[00:18:02] I want to do this one every time.

[00:18:04] And then there'll be like little moments where I'm like, is that really the best way to get through that bridge?

[00:18:09] Like maybe there's something else I can do, but I'm thinking about that kind of all the time.

[00:18:13] Um, just cause I don't know.

[00:18:16] I like the music to evolve.

[00:18:17] I don't want the shows to always be the same.

[00:18:19] And I think a lecture should be different from the record.

[00:18:22] So yeah, I don't know.

[00:18:25] I enjoy it that way.

[00:18:26] You know, I don't think I've heard a lot of people describe it that way.

[00:18:29] This idea of getting through something and not, not obviously not in a sense like, you know, that I want to get finished with the song, but in the sense that it's almost like a math problem that it's like, what, what is the most, what is the, no.

[00:18:42] What, in, in that, like, what is the best and most creative or, or perhaps most efficient way to get from point A to point B?

[00:18:53] Yeah, it is kind of, yeah, I know what you mean.

[00:18:56] It's, it, it is kind of like a challenge or, or almost like a game, you know, cause I'm thinking about like, I think when I'm playing bass with, with other people or at least in Jason to be Jason's music, to be specific, you know, I'm thinking about how am I navigating this harmony?

[00:19:12] Like, how am I fulfilling like a base function, like kind of grounding the harmony and the rhythm, but also doing that in, for me, like a melodic way, you know, um, like how am I getting from this chord to this chord?

[00:19:28] How am I like, how am I leading us into the bridge?

[00:19:32] How am I leading us back into the chorus kind of things like that?

[00:19:35] It's like really subtle stuff.

[00:19:36] You know, we're talking about like a couple of notes, like it's a baseline.

[00:19:40] It's, it's not, you know, um, this like, it's, it's, it's subtle, I guess.

[00:19:46] But, um, but yeah, I don't know.

[00:19:47] I'm always thinking about, about that.

[00:19:49] Is there a sense in which, um, the role of the bass in a song like that?

[00:19:53] I mean, that this idea of leadership is interesting to this idea of like, you know, obviously bass is really foundational to this kind of music, um, of shepherding musicians to other parts of the songs.

[00:20:07] Again, that's a really interesting way of contextualizing things.

[00:20:11] Hmm.

[00:20:12] Well, I kind of meant like shepherding the listener, really.

[00:20:15] Like, how am I leading the listener from this bridge section to the chorus?

[00:20:19] And like, does, is that something that wants to feel like a surprise?

[00:20:24] Or is it something where you, where I, when I say, you know, where I want it to feel like, oh, the anticipation, oh, we're going into a new section.

[00:20:31] Oh, here we are.

[00:20:31] Like, how, how do I frame that for the listener?

[00:20:33] It's kind of, you know, for the other musicians as well, but yeah, I guess I'm thinking a lot about like, like, how am I setting up expectations and then either playing into them or going against them?

[00:20:48] Certainly, like, in most popular music, um, bass isn't necessarily like out there in the way that like, you know, that, that guitar is, you know, that it, or even like, you know, to a certain extent, like, well, vocals, of course, but, but drums as well.

[00:21:06] It, it's, it's a really subtle instrument.

[00:21:08] You know, like I said, it's a foundational instrument and it's very interesting to explore the way people interact with it and the role that it has, especially like in a lot of cases, even really great bass players, like you don't even notice that they're there.

[00:21:24] They're just kind of part of the music.

[00:21:26] Yeah.

[00:21:27] It's interesting.

[00:21:27] I don't really have a, I don't think, I think I have a very biased perspective on that because I'm always, always notice.

[00:21:36] You know, like that's what I'm listening to, but, but yeah, maybe you're right.

[00:21:40] Maybe I'm doing all of this stuff and no one's noticing who knows, but I mean, it's not in vain.

[00:21:45] It's not in vain.

[00:21:46] Yeah.

[00:21:47] It's not flashy necessarily in the same way that other instruments are.

[00:21:51] No, that's right.

[00:21:52] I mean, I think it depends on the music and, and like, I, I always want to hear the bass out front.

[00:21:59] I want to hear the bass mixed really high, like very separated.

[00:22:01] Cause I, I think it's interesting.

[00:22:03] I think there's no reason why the bass shouldn't be playing parts that are really melodic and, and, and singable.

[00:22:10] Like that's what I want to do in my favorite bass players.

[00:22:13] I'll do that.

[00:22:14] So I'm kind of like, why not?

[00:22:16] But I did, I was kind of trying to remember, I think I read something somewhere about rock and roll music being more about like the interaction between the drums and the guitars rather than, rather than with the bass.

[00:22:29] Which I think is probably true in a lot of cases, but, um, I say, why not the bass as well?

[00:22:37] You know, don't sleep on the bass.

[00:22:39] It's always fascinating to me when the bass player writes the song and the bass really does play, take on a different role, you know, for, I mean, this is kind of an obvious example in jazz, but, um, you know, Mingus, for example, like Mingus writing a song as a bass player.

[00:22:59] You hear, you just hear a lot more of the bass in the song naturally.

[00:23:05] Yeah, that's true.

[00:23:06] Yeah.

[00:23:07] His, yeah, his songs are very bass orchest.

[00:23:10] Oh, I love it.

[00:23:12] I don't know.

[00:23:12] I think in jazz, the bass, oh no, I was just going to say, I think in jazz, the bass is a little more prominent than it, it can be in some of these other like popular musics.

[00:23:22] Um, but, but yeah, that is, yeah, that is a good point.

[00:23:27] I guess what I'm getting at in a really roundabout way is, um, you know, and I don't know that you necessarily firsthand have a lot to compare this to.

[00:23:37] I know that you were a flautist at one point in your life, but how, how do you feel that having the bass as your foundational instrument that you're effectively writing the songs around impacts your songwriting?

[00:23:52] Hmm.

[00:23:55] That's a good question.

[00:23:56] I mean, I think, yeah, I think, I think it, I think it does impact the songwriting.

[00:24:03] I mean, I, you know, I've noticed on this new record, all of the songs do have these very kind of like strong bass lines, I guess, or, or kind of like, yeah.

[00:24:18] Yeah. Bass lines that, that stick with you or, or that you notice, um, I'm not always starting a song from like what the bass line is going to be, but it's never like a throwaway thing for me.

[00:24:33] It's like, I do need it just for myself.

[00:24:35] At least I do need it to be like great, you know, like, I mean, I'm coming from like listening to a lot of like Michelle DeGiocello, you know, someone I've been listening to a lot the last 10 years or so.

[00:24:48] So she has the best bass lines.

[00:24:50] So I'm like, well, why can't every bass line be that good?

[00:24:53] Like it should be like, there's no reason for it just to be a throwaway thing.

[00:24:57] I think, um, so I think I'm always thinking about that, but.

[00:25:00] Did you study composition?

[00:25:03] No, no.

[00:25:04] I went to school for jazz.

[00:25:05] Um, and, and it didn't really have a, a, a big compositional element to it.

[00:25:11] I haven't ridden a whole, I've dabbled in writing music for, you know, maybe the last 10, 15 years.

[00:25:17] But, um, not really seriously until I put out, uh, my first record in 2022.

[00:25:24] Yeah.

[00:25:24] But yeah, not a whole lot of composition.

[00:25:26] Um, and, and I think the disadvantage, I guess, or maybe it's an advantage and a disadvantage of being a bass player is that you're not like everyone's gonna, every band needs a bass player.

[00:25:38] Other people are going to call you, uh, to be in their bands.

[00:25:41] It's like, I have a lot of friends who are saxophone players or vocalists and they have to be so much more proactive about being band leaders and writing music because it's much less likely that someone's going to call them to play a bunch of gigs.

[00:25:55] You know, if you play, they have to make their own work in a sense.

[00:25:58] Exactly.

[00:25:58] Yeah.

[00:25:59] They have to, you know, not it's saxophone is not a necessary part of every band for, for better or for worse.

[00:26:04] Um, and the way that bass, bass kind of is.

[00:26:08] So it, it let me spend a lot of time not having to focus on, on writing my own music and writing always seemed daunting to me.

[00:26:18] So I came to it like, at least I seriously came to it kind of later on, which, you know, yeah, I don't know.

[00:26:25] I'm still trying to kind of figure it out.

[00:26:27] I think improvisation, if not foundational, at least is like a very useful skill when it comes to sitting down and writing music.

[00:26:37] That is definitely true.

[00:26:38] Yeah, definitely.

[00:26:40] Yeah.

[00:26:41] Yeah.

[00:26:42] I think, yeah, just being able to kind of explore ideas, uh, mess around.

[00:26:48] Yeah.

[00:26:49] It has been helpful.

[00:26:50] That's certainly true.

[00:26:51] You feel like you had to kind of force the process a little bit though, when you first started writing songs?

[00:26:55] Oh, totally.

[00:26:56] Yeah.

[00:26:57] It's all about, for me, it's just all always been about tricking myself into writing something.

[00:27:03] I'm serious.

[00:27:04] Like just a lot of like, you know, just like, just spend one hour, just like, like put on a timer for an hour and just, just try and get any idea down.

[00:27:14] And then if you don't, and then like, I kind of would tell myself like, okay.

[00:27:17] And then like never open it up again, just kind of getting used to the, I guess, giving my permission, myself permission to make things.

[00:27:26] Like that were bad was kind of the first hurdle that I had to get over.

[00:27:30] I'm a real perfectionist.

[00:27:32] So, uh, for me, the hardest thing is just to get any idea out.

[00:27:37] Um, so I just had a lot of methods to trick myself into, into getting work done.

[00:27:42] You didn't go back and revisit any of that.

[00:27:44] It was really just getting it out in the world and then you were done with it.

[00:27:49] No, I went back and revisited some of them.

[00:27:51] Like, um, I mean, I have a ton that I didn't, but, but I, I would go back and revisit a lot of them.

[00:27:57] I, I worked in Ableton.

[00:27:59] Um, so, you know, I was like recording things as I was going and then, yeah, making little loops and stuff like that.

[00:28:05] And then I'd go back and listen and be like, do I think this has potential, you know, like a month after having done it?

[00:28:12] Do I think I could turn this into something?

[00:28:14] Do I think this could be a bridge of a song or something like that?

[00:28:17] Yes or no.

[00:28:18] And then I'd work out a little bit more until I got stuck and then I'd shut it down and then open it up.

[00:28:23] Like the next time I was back from tour and, and just kind of, yeah, it was a slow process of, of small.

[00:28:30] Yeah.

[00:28:31] I think if I started focusing too much on like, I have to finish this song or I have to, this song has to be on the record, stuff like that.

[00:28:39] It got a little too overwhelming.

[00:28:40] So I was always just trying to keep it in the zone of like, what happens if I can play around with this song for an hour?

[00:28:47] Like, can I write a better melody?

[00:28:49] No?

[00:28:49] Okay.

[00:28:50] Well, that's nevermind.

[00:28:51] Like I'll do something else, you know?

[00:28:52] And I think as we established at the top of the conversation, you could have, you could, can and have had a very fruitful career playing not only with other musicians, but playing other people's music.

[00:29:05] Why did you feel like you really had to, to force this process?

[00:29:09] Why was it important that you started writing for yourself?

[00:29:13] That's a great question.

[00:29:17] In that I don't quite know the answer.

[00:29:19] I don't know.

[00:29:21] You really got me there.

[00:29:25] Well, I know.

[00:29:26] I think, I don't know, but I think I did, did kind of have a feeling or, you know, I do feel like I have things to say musically.

[00:29:38] I think, I think I do believe on some level that I have ideas that are worth exploring and worth, you know, showing to people.

[00:29:49] It was just a process of how do I extract them or how do I realize them?

[00:29:54] But I think, you know, the first record I put out activities was very much, I was not thinking about making a record or trying to make a record.

[00:30:01] I was just, you know, I was asked, like, I was invited to come in and like spend a day kind of messing around.

[00:30:08] It kind of fell into my lap, really.

[00:30:10] And then once I had done that and realized, I'm like, oh, I do have these things that I want to express, that I want to say.

[00:30:17] And also that I'm, I have the ability to do it.

[00:30:21] And I think I kind of just, you know, had the confidence in myself to try and do it again and to believe that I did have things I wanted to, I wanted to say and I wanted to write.

[00:30:32] But I'm really just trying to make music that I would want to listen to, I think.

[00:30:37] Forgive the overly simplistic question, but when you say an idea, what, what, what, I mean, it's an obviously very abstract concept.

[00:30:45] But what is an idea as far insofar as it's sort of the starting point for a song?

[00:30:51] Yeah, that's, I mean, anything, I think any, just any tiny little fragment of music that is interesting to me, like whether it's an interesting bass line or it's an interesting, like, I did a lot of stuff on drum machine.

[00:31:11] Like if I'm able to make an interesting drum pattern, or just an interesting guitar riff, like really a tiny, I'm talking about like a tiny fragment, less kind of like big lofty ideas and more just like really small musical fragments.

[00:31:26] And like, do I hear that going somewhere else?

[00:31:28] Or do I hear that?

[00:31:29] Is that interesting?

[00:31:30] Is that interesting enough to my ear to try and explore it, to try and take it somewhere?

[00:31:37] I guess to try and do something that sounds new.

[00:31:40] I will confess, you know, I didn't, I didn't know your name until I was, I was pitched you and I listened to your album.

[00:31:48] And I just, I wanted to talk to you based on that, on, on, on, on hearing something that felt really just from the outset for you, very, very, I guess, different from other things that are out there.

[00:32:06] Is that, is that important for you?

[00:32:09] Is that important for you to have kind of a unique sound or a unique approach when it comes to your own music?

[00:32:18] Well, first of all, thank you.

[00:32:19] I mean, that's a, that's a nice thing to say.

[00:32:21] Um, I think, yeah, I think it is.

[00:32:26] There's just so much, I mean, there's just so much music being made.

[00:32:32] Um, I always kind of think like, well, I think about this a lot in terms of like, it was a little bit of a digression, but like playing covers, um, of other people's music.

[00:32:46] Like I always kind of think personally, like you should either do it better than the original or different than the original.

[00:32:55] Like there should be some reason to, to like, I don't know.

[00:32:59] I think it should be like better or different basically.

[00:33:01] So, you know.

[00:33:03] It's like, well, do I just pick poor performances?

[00:33:06] You know, like, am I going to play a Beatles song better than they did?

[00:33:08] Well, that's the thing, you know, like, um, that's, that's, I don't even, I've said that and now I don't even, now I'm already like arguing with myself over whether or not that's even true.

[00:33:17] No, you've got to bring something to the table, I think is what you're getting.

[00:33:20] There you go.

[00:33:21] Yeah.

[00:33:21] That's a much better way of saying it.

[00:33:22] Yeah.

[00:33:23] So I do, and I do think, you know, I come from a really maybe unique background.

[00:33:31] I would say I didn't listen to like popular music at all until I was in my twenties.

[00:33:34] I, you know, heard hip hop for the first time when I was in my twenties.

[00:33:39] Um, so I kind of, I think, I don't know, I think finding a way to combine all of the music that I enjoy listening to into something that is different is like kind of a fun challenge for me.

[00:33:51] Um, but yeah, at the end of the day, I want to make something that like is like unexpected or, you know, just like makes people either like feel something or think something or like have a new experience and be like, I've never heard anything like this before.

[00:34:07] Like that is, I guess, kind of the goal.

[00:34:09] How did you manage to avoid hearing hip hop until your twenties?

[00:34:12] That's impressive.

[00:34:13] I don't know, man.

[00:34:14] I know.

[00:34:14] Impressive or depressing.

[00:34:18] Um, and this is another part of the conversation entirely.

[00:34:21] You know, I think that ultimately it's, it's kind of an asset to be coming at things from an entirely different angle.

[00:34:28] But, um, you know, you, you were in Adelaide, like you weren't in the boonies necessarily.

[00:34:33] You were, you were around people.

[00:34:36] I was around people.

[00:34:37] Yes.

[00:34:38] I don't know.

[00:34:39] I'd never like my family didn't listen to their radio, like not in the house.

[00:34:47] Uh, I don't know.

[00:34:48] I just, I kind of, I guess I got into jazz kind of young.

[00:34:53] I got into jazz when I was about 13 and I was just, I'm an obsessive person.

[00:34:57] Um, I'm very, I'll get interested in something and then I, I don't want to hear about anything else.

[00:35:03] So I was just really focused on that until I was in my twenties.

[00:35:06] Um, I didn't, yeah, I don't know.

[00:35:10] I, I didn't, I didn't grow up with a lot of popular culture.

[00:35:12] I didn't really like watch TV.

[00:35:14] Um, I didn't, yeah, you know, in Adelaide, yes, you're right.

[00:35:19] It's not the boonies, but it is, you know, I mean, it's isolated from, it's geographically

[00:35:24] isolated and it's, it's isolated from, uh, American culture in a way, but yeah, it, I

[00:35:32] don't know.

[00:35:33] I, I, you know, have always been really self-conscious about that element of my kind of journey in music

[00:35:42] about not having listened to so much stuff about, you know, yeah, just not having heard so much

[00:35:48] music that everyone else my age kind of grew up with, but I'm, I'm trying to see it as an

[00:35:53] asset or I'm not seeing it as an asset, but I'm trying to like lean into the things about

[00:35:57] that, that are really interesting.

[00:35:59] Like, it's interesting to hear.

[00:36:01] Like I heard, this is a silly example, but I've heard the song Hey Yow by Outcast for the

[00:36:06] first time this year.

[00:36:09] And like, I know it's ridiculous, but it, no, it's, oh, it's hilarious.

[00:36:14] Oh, it was just the biggest song in the world when it came out.

[00:36:17] I know.

[00:36:18] And when did it come out?

[00:36:19] Like I was definitely alive, like, and could have heard it, but, and I had heard, I'd heard

[00:36:24] Miss Jackson, like that song I knew, but like I heard Hey Yow for the first time, like six

[00:36:28] months ago.

[00:36:29] Um, and like having that experience, like in your thirties is crazy.

[00:36:36] Like for me, you know, like something that everyone grew up with and that I'm like hearing

[00:36:42] for the first time with like such a deeper understanding of music than I would have had at the time

[00:36:46] that it came out.

[00:36:48] Um, like it's, I don't know.

[00:36:50] It's something about that is cool.

[00:36:51] Actually, it feels ridiculous and it's embarrassing in a way, but I'm trying to just, I'm trying to

[00:36:56] just take the positive elements from my very sheltered upbringing.

[00:37:00] I think that's right.

[00:37:01] I think that there is like a song like that, that's been around for a long time and that,

[00:37:07] you know, certainly it's something that I know really well.

[00:37:09] It's something that you tend to take for granted.

[00:37:12] And that just feels like, I mean, that that's like such a good song that, that just feels

[00:37:18] like it's something that just like existed in the universe, you know, independent of

[00:37:24] outcasts, just in the ether for, you know, millennia.

[00:37:28] Yeah, I guess so.

[00:37:29] Not for me, but yeah.

[00:37:31] Fair right now.

[00:37:32] I just mean, I mean, and you're able to bring this kind of, you know, fresh, you know, fresh

[00:37:36] set of ears to it in the way that other people can't necessarily.

[00:37:41] Yeah.

[00:37:41] I think I just, I've just been in the, and this still happens to be all the time.

[00:37:45] Um, you know, especially starting with Jason, because like some of the guys in that band

[00:37:49] will be like, what do you mean?

[00:37:50] You've never heard like this song by the who, you know, it's just like, it's happened.

[00:37:55] And you know what?

[00:37:56] And music guys love that.

[00:37:58] They love hearing you haven't heard about something and then just like teaching you and.

[00:38:02] Yeah.

[00:38:03] And it's, it's kind of, it can be nice and it can be condescending and it can be a lot

[00:38:10] of things, but I've just, I've just been in that situation so many times.

[00:38:13] I've just always just like, what do you mean?

[00:38:15] You haven't heard this record?

[00:38:16] You haven't heard this record.

[00:38:17] And it used to make me feel so self-conscious and so bad.

[00:38:22] Like I was, I hadn't listened to enough music or like I was doing something wrong, you know?

[00:38:28] And I've just decided that like, I can't have that relationship with it anymore.

[00:38:35] Like I just, it's not worth it.

[00:38:36] It doesn't give me anything positive to kind of feel shamed about not having heard something

[00:38:42] because you know, you could always, I could go up to anyone too and, and, you know, find

[00:38:47] some obscure thing that they haven't heard and do the same thing.

[00:38:50] And I don't know.

[00:38:52] There's yeah.

[00:38:54] I'm just trying to have a more positive relationship with it, I guess.

[00:38:56] I think it's, I think it's a superpower.

[00:39:00] That's sweet.

[00:39:00] Thank you.

[00:39:02] Especially in that world, because the people that you're playing with, like granted you're,

[00:39:09] you're in the same boat.

[00:39:10] It sounds like you've always wanted to do this thing with your life, but they have as

[00:39:15] well.

[00:39:16] And they've been immersed in it for so long that I, I do think that you're able to bring

[00:39:21] a fresh perspective to things that they can't necessarily.

[00:39:26] Yeah, I hope so.

[00:39:28] And I think, I think that's true.

[00:39:30] You know, I guess the other thing is that I've always played, I've always been in situations

[00:39:34] where I'm playing with people who are a lot older than me, you know, which, which has a

[00:39:38] huge impact on that as well.

[00:39:42] So.

[00:39:44] How's that?

[00:39:45] Well, it's just, you know, like I play one of the people I've played with the, the most,

[00:39:49] the band that I've played in the most has been with Jeff Parker and Jay Belrose.

[00:39:53] And those guys are like 20 plus years older than me, you know?

[00:39:58] So there's always going to be, and they've listened to so much music and there's always

[00:40:01] going to be a record where Jeff's like, oh, you've never heard this.

[00:40:04] Oh, you've never heard that.

[00:40:05] You know?

[00:40:05] And it's just, it's kind of, it's going to be like that.

[00:40:08] And, and.

[00:40:10] Which is fine.

[00:40:11] You know, once I, yeah.

[00:40:12] Once I started embracing it and just listening to all the records, they couldn't believe I

[00:40:16] hadn't heard, you know, you get to discover all these new things.

[00:40:20] It was really cool.

[00:40:20] You must be very good at your job because that is potentially another strike, you know,

[00:40:25] like that's another thing, right?

[00:40:26] It's just being like not having had decades of doing this and coming in and there being

[00:40:33] this kind of big gap that clearly you're bringing something to the table that in a certain sense

[00:40:40] is really transcending that.

[00:40:43] Yeah, I, I guess so.

[00:40:45] I guess that must be true.

[00:40:46] I guess that must be true.

[00:40:47] Um, you know, I hope I'm also just bringing a great personality and, uh, you know, the

[00:40:56] dedication and commitment.

[00:40:57] I kind of picked up on this like pretty quickly.

[00:40:59] Um, you know, there's a mention of city pop.

[00:41:02] It was that something that you were, that you got kind of obsessed with at a certain point

[00:41:07] and started to know.

[00:41:09] No, I've never listened to city pop, but I don't, I haven't listened.

[00:41:15] That's not a music that I've listened to like deliberately.

[00:41:17] I think, yeah, it's, it's been, um, it's been interesting to see, you know, the way people

[00:41:25] write about, yeah, the way people write, are writing about the new record and they're like,

[00:41:29] Oh, influenced by this, influenced by that.

[00:41:31] And I'll be like, it's cool that you're hearing all of those things in it.

[00:41:34] But like, really, I was just listening to like a lot of Chris Cohen and Juana Molina and then

[00:41:39] just trying to write a song like that, but with a drum machine.

[00:41:43] And it came out sounding like city pop and great.

[00:41:45] Cool.

[00:41:46] Okay.

[00:41:46] But, uh, no, in this case, no, no, it's, that's very funny.

[00:41:50] You know, and I, and I wonder how much of this, you know, an impression that I got really

[00:41:58] listening to the record before I had any context for who you are and what you do is, is it seems

[00:42:04] to be of similar mind or occupying a similar space is like, like a flying Lotus.

[00:42:14] Um, I, I assume that as a bass player, you're like a, a Thundercat fan, like the rest of

[00:42:20] us.

[00:42:20] I don't know.

[00:42:21] Do you feel a sense of kinship to those guys?

[00:42:26] I like their music.

[00:42:27] I like flying Lotus.

[00:42:28] Um, I like Thundercat kinship.

[00:42:32] I mean, I don't know.

[00:42:35] It's hard to, it's hard to put myself in a, you know, put myself in a, in a, any kind

[00:42:40] of like, um, conceptual group with, with those kinds of people.

[00:42:44] But, you know, I do think there's a shared, uh, like Los Angeles, um, element to the stuff.

[00:42:50] I, I, to me, you know, my music is, is very rooted in LA and in this particular time span.

[00:42:58] So I think there is a connection, a connection there.

[00:43:01] And I've certainly, um, you know, yeah, have listened to it.

[00:43:06] Like, I would say like, to me, it was like more of a hip hop influence in it than, than

[00:43:10] some of the other things that have been kind of thrown around.

[00:43:13] So foundational, similar, similar influences, you know, beyond that, beyond sort of the,

[00:43:18] and we can, we're coming up an hour, we can close on this, but beyond the obvious geographical

[00:43:22] implications, what, what does that mean to make music that's rooted in LA?

[00:43:27] Yeah, it's interesting.

[00:43:28] I, I mean, I'm still kind of trying to figure it out.

[00:43:31] I think, I don't know.

[00:43:36] I think there's something in, you know, the people that I play with here, um, are all involved

[00:43:42] in a lot of different projects that are happening here.

[00:43:45] There's, there's a kind of, um, like a diversity of, of influences that I think that, that to

[00:43:49] me feels like a big part of it.

[00:43:51] Um, you know, a lot of bands tour out of LA and a lot of the people that I play with

[00:43:56] have, have spent a lot of time touring in, in various bands.

[00:44:00] Um, but then in, you know, it's definitely a city where you can do a lot of different

[00:44:04] things.

[00:44:05] Um, and I think those things all kind of, kind of come through, but I, I think it's also

[00:44:09] just like a specific, you know, my experience in LA has been very much tied to, uh, this

[00:44:18] bar we used to play in ETA.

[00:44:19] Um, you know, this band with Jeff Parker, Jay Belrose, uh, Josh Johnson, it's like a

[00:44:25] very specific, small kind of, it's community of people and like the, the kind of the music

[00:44:31] that we listen to the people that we all individually play with.

[00:44:34] So it's, it's kind of almost like a micro it's LA, but it's like a micro scene in LA,

[00:44:39] I guess, if that makes sense.

[00:44:41] It's like this nucleus that everything you do kind of starts to build out from.

[00:44:45] It sounds like.

[00:44:47] Yeah, that's definitely been my experience in that.

[00:44:49] I would say.

[00:44:49] Yeah.