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[00:00:00] I wanted to get out of music for a little bit. I was taking a break. I wanted a break because I grew up in music. You know, I was a kid playing music in churches and in my community around Texas. And I thought, okay, everybody in my family, they're all mechanics, you know, they all use their hands. So I think I was envious of that. So I just wanted to go do something different.
[00:00:28] So I ended up at a helicopter squadron in the military, in the Navy in San Diego.
[00:00:35] You use your hands, right?
[00:00:37] Yeah. In some ways, I guess I do. Yeah. But this was about just doing something really different. I wanted to be in a crowd where I didn't have to think about music. I didn't have to talk about music. I grew up with music, you know, and that's all I did. And it helped put food on a table.
[00:00:57] It helped my family. I would play churches all over the, you know, Texas area. And it was a great way to bring cold hard cash to the household to pay bills. And I think I just wanted to try something different just to see if I could do it.
[00:01:18] I assume that leaving and coming back gives you a certain appreciation for just the ability that you're able to do that. Because a lot of people try to pay their bills with music and are unable to.
[00:01:28] That's very true. And I still get this to this day when I'm on the airport shuttles coming back from a show and people ask, they see the guitar and they think, oh, so that's, you know, they think it's a hobby.
[00:01:47] So the first thing they ask me is, so what do you do for a living?
[00:01:54] I carry people's guitars around.
[00:01:57] Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard for them to believe this. And so, and that's when I have to go into my story of, you know, yeah, I have been at this for a very long time.
[00:02:07] When that conversation happens organically, you feel kind of an obligation to give your almost history as a music maker?
[00:02:16] Not really. You know, I give them as much as I feel like they need to know. And, but it is a reminder for me that this is, not everybody gets a chance to really do something like this, something you love for a living.
[00:02:35] And if anything, it makes me more appreciative of what I'm doing.
[00:02:41] It's nice those moments when that happens in life, because not that you didn't go into the military for other reasons, but if the sole reason was just to sort of get away from music and in a roundabout way, find an appreciation.
[00:02:53] It's nice to just have that happen in life without having to go into the military or take, you know, evasive action.
[00:03:00] True. I could have done anything else, but you know, it was really about something I really wanted to do. I wanted to serve in a big way.
[00:03:10] I grew up with a family that was very much about serving the community. My mother cooked for people who couldn't cook for themselves in my community.
[00:03:23] And I grew up with that mentality. And I wanted to have my own way of serving.
[00:03:32] And to me, being in a place of service in the military was part of that. And I did learn so much of when I was in the military, what I learned was basically what I learned at home.
[00:03:48] I learned about discipline, serving your community, you know, just being a part of your community was huge.
[00:03:58] Wherever you serve in, you know, in any branch in the military, you're also a part of the community and it was a big deal.
[00:04:07] I was stationed in Charleston, South Carolina, and the hurricane category for Hugo came through.
[00:04:18] And I went through the city of Charleston where I was serving.
[00:04:26] And basically, there's no electricity, there's no nothing.
[00:04:32] So our job, our service was to the community and making sure that everyone had clean water.
[00:04:41] Everyone had diapers for babies.
[00:04:44] And we escorted older people to their homes to see if anything left after these tornadoes and after the hurricane.
[00:04:56] You know, it was a humanitarian, that's where we went into that mode, humanitarian mode.
[00:05:05] So I figured out real quick that I was in the right place.
[00:05:10] And that's what I needed to know for myself, that I could do that and I can actually be of service in a bigger way.
[00:05:18] Now in music, it's even a bigger way.
[00:05:21] Certainly you're able to reach more people.
[00:05:23] But there is something in the immediacy of that.
[00:05:30] Obviously, you play shows and you get to interact with people.
[00:05:33] But, you know, I was living in Queens for the last 20 years.
[00:05:37] I just moved upstate a little bit.
[00:05:40] But a few years ago, I started volunteering at a food pantry.
[00:05:44] And I think part of my initial hesitation in doing that was, this is silly in hindsight, but that it would feel like a chore or that it would be depressing.
[00:05:59] And it wasn't any of those things.
[00:06:01] It was just, I felt like it was maybe the most rewarding thing that I had ever done.
[00:06:08] Yeah.
[00:06:12] And really, we are put here to do that.
[00:06:17] You know, we are, this is a human race, you know?
[00:06:22] And we're put here to support and be here for each other.
[00:06:27] Really, that's just, that's just what we're here for.
[00:06:31] And, and, and what you're feeling is the same thing I get, even when I go visit some of the, the folks in my community.
[00:06:39] When I, I don't play Austin.
[00:06:41] I live in Austin, Texas area, but I don't necessarily play Austin very much except for a CD release, you know, party.
[00:06:52] But I try to be involved in my community and charities that are here.
[00:06:58] Home, housing opportunities for musicians and entertainers.
[00:07:02] I'm on the board for that.
[00:07:04] We are providing means to have your electricity turned back on for musicians who can't tour and entertainers who, who aren't able to be out and earn a living.
[00:07:22] You know, these are the things I want to be involved with when I'm home.
[00:07:26] So it's, it's a huge part of my DNA, I guess.
[00:07:30] My mother was a huge, you know, she, she baked sweet potato pies and I come home, I come home and it was my job to make the potato salad for whatever the meal was going out to the neighbors.
[00:07:43] So this is just part of my, it's, it's part of how I grew up.
[00:07:47] I think for me, what was especially, not edifying, but I guess enlightening was, I mean, obviously, you know, part of me knew this,
[00:07:58] but was interacting with my neighbors, you know, and in the part of Queens that I was living in, most of the people that came to visit us were either native Spanish speakers or there are a lot of Arabic speakers.
[00:08:13] And, you know, there were points where I was, um, I usually worked in, you know, the handing out the foods and making the bags, but there were a few points where I would go and actually deliver them to people's apartments.
[00:08:24] And they were right across the street from me or, you know, or, or, or one apartment building down.
[00:08:32] And it, that was just really eyeopening.
[00:08:35] These people that for, you know, I probably wouldn't interact with too much day to day, having this direct interaction with somebody and realizing that so many people that live so close to me are struggling.
[00:08:50] Yeah, that is everywhere, right?
[00:08:54] It is so everywhere.
[00:08:56] And we have that here.
[00:08:58] I live actually south of Austin in a community called San Marcos.
[00:09:04] And we have, we have kids that go to school and that's the only meal they're going to get.
[00:09:11] Right.
[00:09:12] And they go back home and there's, you know, very little to no food unless a, their family goes out to go get that from places like food pantries and wherever.
[00:09:26] It's a real thing.
[00:09:27] And I think, you know, this is political as I will, I will get in this climate, especially in the U.S. right now.
[00:09:39] We live in a society right now where saying, hey, we should feed people is a political statement.
[00:09:45] Right.
[00:09:46] This is where we are, right?
[00:09:49] It is so sad that this is where we are, that we have our, our, yeah.
[00:09:56] You know, and this is what I tell people in my concerts.
[00:10:00] Go out and meet your neighbor.
[00:10:02] See who's, who's living right next to you.
[00:10:05] You have no idea what they may be going through.
[00:10:09] You just have no idea.
[00:10:13] You know, it, it, it wave.
[00:10:15] When you take your garbage out to the, to the, to the curb, at least say hello.
[00:10:22] Something.
[00:10:22] It's a simple things.
[00:10:24] It doesn't have to be big.
[00:10:26] It starts with very, very simple things.
[00:10:29] You alluded to this a little bit earlier, but in what ways do you see your music being a service?
[00:10:40] I don't think, you know, I, I'm, I'm just going to say it.
[00:10:43] I don't particularly like traveling.
[00:10:49] You know, I.
[00:10:52] I get that.
[00:10:53] I get what, what is, what is doing.
[00:10:56] What, what my, my.
[00:10:59] This is what my service is about.
[00:11:02] What I do involves a lot of traveling.
[00:11:05] I happen to, I'm in the middle of a break right now.
[00:11:09] I'm taking this particular month off from traveling.
[00:11:12] I need to get off the road because it takes a team to put my, myself back together to get back on the road from therapy to muscle therapy to physical therapy.
[00:11:23] It takes so much to put me back out on the road.
[00:11:27] You mean that literally.
[00:11:28] I do.
[00:11:29] Yes.
[00:11:30] I had a physical therapy session this morning.
[00:11:32] Yes.
[00:11:33] It takes that.
[00:11:34] Um, but I did not travel very well starting out in this business 30 years ago, 30 plus years ago, but I've learned to travel very well.
[00:11:47] It's, it's been a learned, um, thing for me.
[00:11:51] I even, I had wonderful fans.
[00:11:54] I have such wonderful fans.
[00:11:56] A fan gave me a kitchen towel at one of my concerts that says, this place is my home.
[00:12:04] And this is the towel that I take with me when I'm in a hotel and I have this little Keurig coffee set up.
[00:12:12] And this is the towel I lay out.
[00:12:14] And this is the towel that I put my, my journal on.
[00:12:17] And this is the towel.
[00:12:18] This is where this reminds me that, okay, I'm here.
[00:12:23] And this is my home for now, because I'm here for a reason.
[00:12:26] I'm here for the music.
[00:12:28] I'm here for people who I'm going to be performing for tonight.
[00:12:32] And I want to give them the message to remember that they're loved and they're cared for and you are supported and use my music for that.
[00:12:43] I've had people to tell me they've used my music to have their babies to go through.
[00:12:50] That's maybe more information.
[00:12:52] Yeah, a little bit more.
[00:12:56] Make making babies and delivering babies.
[00:12:59] And what do you say to that?
[00:13:04] Right.
[00:13:04] Okay.
[00:13:05] Whatever works.
[00:13:07] To people who are going through chemotherapy.
[00:13:10] Therapy, you know.
[00:13:13] And to me that says, okay, that's why I got up at four this morning to get on a flight at six o'clock to be at this particular concert.
[00:13:26] Have a three hour, four hour flight.
[00:13:29] I get there just in time for a sound check and then maybe have dinner, maybe not.
[00:13:36] I may have interviews before that or a meet and greet.
[00:13:41] And then there's showtime.
[00:13:42] And that's anywhere from 75 minutes to 90 minutes.
[00:13:48] And then after that, another meet and greet.
[00:13:50] And then there's sitting at the merch table, getting a chance to hear your stories and what my music does to you.
[00:13:57] And then we have to pack up and we take everything back to the hotel.
[00:14:02] And it's maybe one o'clock in the morning by the time that happens.
[00:14:06] And we start it all over again the next day.
[00:14:09] I've been traveling a lot for work.
[00:14:11] And, you know, you know, as anyone who travels a lot knows, suitcase space is precious, right?
[00:14:19] Like you really need to decide what you're going to take and what you're going to leave behind.
[00:14:24] But I think maybe in the last year or so, or really when I started traveling again after the pandemic,
[00:14:32] maybe you already do this and maybe you already know this, but it dawned on me to try this.
[00:14:37] I packed slippers one day.
[00:14:40] And that makes a huge difference.
[00:14:43] Just having my slippers from home when I'm in the hotel room in terms of comfort,
[00:14:48] in terms of like centering yourself and in terms of reminding yourself of home.
[00:14:54] So it sounds like you found a few of those things for yourself.
[00:14:57] Yes, I am so with you.
[00:14:59] I just ordered a new pair of slippers and I'm so excited.
[00:15:06] I'm so excited for next year, next year's, you know, run.
[00:15:14] You're going to make me cry because it's huge, right?
[00:15:17] You're excited about that.
[00:15:18] Are you wearing those slippers around the house now or are you holding on to them specifically for touring?
[00:15:25] Well, yeah, I broke them out.
[00:15:29] I broke them in for the CD release party.
[00:15:33] Yeah.
[00:15:35] That's like saving a bottle of wine for a special occasion, right?
[00:15:38] I didn't, you know, I had to make sure they fit and they're comfortable.
[00:15:43] And yeah, the other thing is, you know, I, yeah, through the years I've done little bitty things.
[00:15:49] I have a kimono robe, you know, that's, I get into my room and I put my robe on.
[00:15:56] That's what I do.
[00:15:57] That's smart because that packs, that packs really well.
[00:15:59] Oh yeah.
[00:15:59] That doesn't take up any space.
[00:16:01] Yeah.
[00:16:01] It's a very thin, but you know, once you put them on, you're like, okay, I'm home.
[00:16:05] Put them on my slippers, my kimono robe.
[00:16:08] We're good.
[00:16:09] Put out my little, you know, uh, you know, my little, uh, towel that tells me this, this place is your home now.
[00:16:17] So yeah.
[00:16:18] And sometimes I'll even pack my own coffee.
[00:16:21] I obviously bring my own teas, um, little bone broth in case I don't get a meal.
[00:16:28] I don't get a chance to get a meal.
[00:16:29] I can at least get something that's nutritious into my body, especially for my throat.
[00:16:37] Um, I've learned these things over the years that is really important to do.
[00:16:43] Uh, sound machine for those hotels that are a little loud.
[00:16:47] Yeah.
[00:16:47] A little white noise, brown noise, whatever works for you.
[00:16:50] Uh, I even have a travel fan.
[00:16:54] Those of us who are, um, challenged when it comes to hormones will know about that.
[00:17:03] I have a little travel fan.
[00:17:06] It's difficult to know how you're going to need to regulate the temperature before you're actually in that position.
[00:17:13] It sounds like.
[00:17:13] Very true.
[00:17:15] Um, so, so, I mean, getting back to, you know, you said that kind of cheekily, but, um, what do you say when people tell you that, you know, that they're listening to you at their most, I guess, intimate moments?
[00:17:30] Yeah.
[00:17:31] Well, you just kind of go with it.
[00:17:33] Oh, okay.
[00:17:34] All right, then.
[00:17:36] Hey, glad I could help.
[00:17:38] You don't, you know, you don't know what to say, but, uh, I think when I'm at the merch table, it's just really about listening.
[00:17:46] Um, there are folks who just want to tell their story about what your music means to them and their life and how it helps and how it is, um, very much a part of everything they do.
[00:18:06] I've had people tell me that they use my music to clean house.
[00:18:09] I love that because that's, you know, I do that with certain people, certain types of music myself.
[00:18:16] Yeah, it's not, you know, there's not much you can say except thanks.
[00:18:19] I'm kind of on the fence about traveling.
[00:18:21] As I mentioned earlier, I just moved house.
[00:18:23] I moved to the Hudson Valley.
[00:18:25] So a couple hours north of the city.
[00:18:27] Um, and I've been telling people much like you that I'm being very intentional about not doing any traveling between now and the end of the year.
[00:18:37] I saw you tour, you have tour dates in January.
[00:18:39] And what I tell people is I, I bought a house and I tell people, I just, I want to get to a point where I'm sick of being here.
[00:18:48] Yeah.
[00:18:49] So that the idea of traveling sounds nice again and not like a chore.
[00:18:55] I love that.
[00:18:57] That's exactly what I feel.
[00:18:59] I'm in this place now where, um, yeah, I'm, I'm in my, my home.
[00:19:06] Unfortunately, we don't really use video, but you've got it.
[00:19:09] I see a hollow body.
[00:19:11] You've got a telecaster.
[00:19:12] Is that Prince?
[00:19:12] That's Prince in the frame.
[00:19:14] Yeah.
[00:19:14] I keep, I trade it out between him and, uh, sister Rosetta Tharp.
[00:19:19] I have in the same frame.
[00:19:21] Just two, two fine guitar players.
[00:19:23] Yes, indeed.
[00:19:25] Yeah.
[00:19:26] I love being in my little home because I don't get a chance to be in my little house when I travel throughout the year.
[00:19:32] So this is that time of the year when I try to, um, I hibernate.
[00:19:38] I just hibernate and I get to that point to where I am just bored out of my mind.
[00:19:46] And then I travel and then I'll, I'll, you know, go hang out with some friends.
[00:19:52] I have a friend now.
[00:19:53] She's, she's wanting me to come to Cozumel, you know, into Mexico and go hang out.
[00:19:58] And I love the idea, but it involves getting on another flight in the middle of the holidays.
[00:20:05] And I am really challenged about that idea, but we'll see.
[00:20:14] We'll see where I end up.
[00:20:15] You said this somewhere.
[00:20:16] I saw it in an interview or something, but, and obviously you didn't coin this, but it being the journey, not the destination.
[00:20:22] And, and a big part of that is like, I think the thing that I dislike about travel is the same thing that you dislike about travel, which is the actual traveling part of travel.
[00:20:31] Cause once you're somewhere else, it's wonderful, especially if you've not been there and you're able to like engage with, you know, different people and different things, but it's just, it's a chore to actually get there.
[00:20:41] That's, that's the part, you know, getting up and getting in traffic and getting to through security.
[00:20:48] Security.
[00:20:50] That's a huge deal now, especially during the holidays.
[00:20:54] It's very challenging.
[00:20:56] And then, then it was just, you know, just the airport and they're all different.
[00:21:00] Some are very comfortable and some are, you know, they, they need to upgrade and yeah.
[00:21:07] And you're, you're basically on top of each other, you know, you're on top of each other for hours at a time.
[00:21:13] And so, and here's the other thing as a musician, as a musician, we travel with gear and I'm traveling with not just a backpack, which would be so wonderful to travel that way.
[00:21:31] But I'm traveling with, you know, a cart and this thing I have to pull that's got my, my pedals for my guitar.
[00:21:42] And I have a guitar and I have a suitcase that's underneath the plane, obviously, but it's a lot, it's a lot to travel with.
[00:21:51] And because we're traveling with guitars, in some cases with flight, flight cases that we have to check underneath, you have to be on time.
[00:22:01] You have to be at least two hours before that plane takes off just to make sure that sucker gets on the plane.
[00:22:09] Because I've been in that situation where you show up at the last minute, some people treat flying like it's a bus stop and they're just going to show up.
[00:22:18] That would be so wonderful to do.
[00:22:20] But as a musician, we don't get that.
[00:22:22] I always liked what Chuck Berry was doing for the last few decades of his career.
[00:22:27] I'm sure there are other people who did this too, but my understanding is like, he didn't really have a band.
[00:22:33] And he would just go somewhere and then get a group of people together and they, you know, his songs were well known enough that they would play it.
[00:22:40] But that, that seems ideal.
[00:22:42] That would be ideal.
[00:22:43] It's, it's, it's kind of gambling at the same time.
[00:22:48] You never know what you're going to get.
[00:22:50] But yeah, that is so ideal.
[00:22:53] And once in a while, I will get that as a reprieve from, from my travel.
[00:23:00] I'll have these shows where I can fly in and I have a band waiting to rehearse and all of that.
[00:23:08] I do have a, that's what 2025 is going to be about.
[00:23:11] I do have quite a bit of those coming up and I'm very grateful for that.
[00:23:17] I feel, okay, I've earned that, you know, that I can just come in and just, just show up.
[00:23:24] Even in, in certain spots, they'll have a guitar waiting for me.
[00:23:31] So it's very, very nice to see that happen.
[00:23:34] Well, that's in a while, but not, not as often as it would, would be appreciated.
[00:23:39] That's Chuck Berry.
[00:23:40] That's Chuck Berry.
[00:23:42] Yeah.
[00:23:43] So you were, you were in New York City for a bit there, right?
[00:23:48] Yeah, I was.
[00:23:49] I lived over in the Jersey area, in Passaic.
[00:23:53] Like Jersey City?
[00:23:54] Oh, Passaic.
[00:23:55] Yeah, I lived in Passaic.
[00:23:56] I took the PATH train over to West 4th and I worked over at, I had a residency at
[00:24:07] Bleeker and Thompson, Terra Blues, a place called Terra Blues.
[00:24:13] It was right next to...
[00:24:15] That's right in the heart of the village.
[00:24:16] Yeah.
[00:24:17] Yeah, next to the Bitter Inn.
[00:24:18] I, you know, I wonder if you had this too, of just sort of being somewhere that you've
[00:24:22] heard about for so long, you know?
[00:24:25] And then not only just being there for the first time, but actually being able to live
[00:24:31] there and being able to engage with that in a way beyond just being a tourist, it is,
[00:24:38] it's kind of magical.
[00:24:40] Oh, it was so, it was very much that, getting a chance to just walk around.
[00:24:45] You know, I'd get off that PATH train and I'd walk past, you know, Washington Square
[00:24:51] and I had my guy that would show up, homeless guy, but he'd always show up and he'd walk me
[00:24:58] to my show and he'd walk me back to the PATH train.
[00:25:03] And, you know, you have these people that you meet that live there and hang out there
[00:25:09] and they're on the streets or are not.
[00:25:11] You just kind of get your groove.
[00:25:13] You find your own groove doing that.
[00:25:17] Yeah, I loved it.
[00:25:19] You know, New York was a love-hate relationship for me.
[00:25:22] I don't think I've, again, I was there for 20 years and I don't think I met a single
[00:25:28] person that wasn't also trying, who, everybody, you know, everyone who's there for an
[00:25:33] extended time loves it, but they're also kind of trying to get out.
[00:25:36] Yeah, that's exactly it.
[00:25:37] It was, it was a love-hate.
[00:25:40] It, it, it kicked my ass, but I kicked back.
[00:25:43] You know, certain nights were, certain nights were challenging and certain nights
[00:25:48] were, you know, hey, I'm in freaking New York.
[00:25:54] I'm in a village and I'm playing my music.
[00:25:57] I'm having a, I'm having a pizza with the guy that wrote, run to me for Whitney Houston.
[00:26:06] You know, you run into these people who are incredible writers as a musician, as a writer.
[00:26:13] That was huge for me to be able to just buy a slice of pizza for somebody who wrote for Whitney Houston or Anita Baker.
[00:26:23] That was, this was my time anyway.
[00:26:27] Yeah, it was special.
[00:26:29] So you, you moved to New York specifically to pursue music as a career?
[00:26:35] I did.
[00:26:36] I was, I had just gotten out of the Navy and I worked at a recording studio as a secretary.
[00:26:46] I was a secretary.
[00:26:47] I took, I took calls from Aretha Franklin's secretary and, you know, I still, I should have kept some of those numbers, I guess.
[00:26:56] Some of those numbers.
[00:26:58] Real quick aside, but what did Aretha Franklin's secretary have to say about Aretha Franklin?
[00:27:04] Is she as wonderful as you would suspect?
[00:27:07] Yeah.
[00:27:08] It was, it was all about what she needed.
[00:27:10] You know, it was all about setting things up before she shows up.
[00:27:14] Yeah.
[00:27:15] She was a diva famously.
[00:27:16] Yeah.
[00:27:17] Right.
[00:27:17] And I had no problem with it.
[00:27:19] She earned it.
[00:27:20] No problem at all.
[00:27:21] You know, you go out and you go shopping and you basically, you stop at the grocery store and then you got to go to a flower shop.
[00:27:27] Yeah.
[00:27:28] Everything.
[00:27:29] That's what I did.
[00:27:30] And that is also why, I think that's why God put me where I'm at.
[00:27:34] You know, this is why I am so grateful for the people who make shows happen.
[00:27:41] People who are behind the scenes.
[00:27:44] Those people who make sure that our dressing room has what we ask for in them.
[00:27:50] You know, there's so much that goes on with shows behind the scenes that people have no idea how hard people work to make, to make them happen.
[00:28:02] And, and I'll tell you this, even in my little house, it's not a big house.
[00:28:08] I have housekeepers because I don't, I don't have a lot of time to sit and dust and vacuum when I have, I have interviews.
[00:28:17] I have songs I'm trying to drop vocals down for and send to people all over the world.
[00:28:24] So I have people that come into my house and they are wonderful.
[00:28:30] And, you know, I make sure that they get their Christmas bonus, just like I get my Christmas bonus.
[00:28:35] You know, I take care, I actually clean my house before they come to my house because I have been a house cleaner before.
[00:28:44] My mother was, you know, she looked up the houses and she would have me come with her to clean houses.
[00:28:49] So I appreciate people who do these jobs that a lot of people see as, they don't see, they're invisible.
[00:28:58] I've long said that, you know, in, in much the same way that in some countries, military service is mandatory that here, I think everybody should at least have to have a food service job at some point.
[00:29:13] So, you know, you can tell a lot by, about somebody, by how they interact with somebody who's like waiting on them at a restaurant.
[00:29:21] I agree.
[00:29:21] I totally agree.
[00:29:23] I believe in that.
[00:29:24] I'm going to add that to my list.
[00:29:26] That's good.
[00:29:27] Um, and I think, um, I think everyone should have a passport.
[00:29:34] People should travel.
[00:29:35] I know we talked about not liking travel, you know, with us, but I think people should know what it's like to not be in your norm, um, atmosphere.
[00:29:47] To know what it's like to, you know, just experience the world in a, in a different way.
[00:29:54] Different cultures, different backgrounds, languages, just appreciate that.
[00:30:03] I think high school kids should get a passport when they graduate.
[00:30:06] I really do think it's important.
[00:30:09] You know, related to that, um, when traveling and that's also something to be mindful of is you are, you're kind of an ambassador for your country.
[00:30:23] You know, if you're, if you're, if you're the ugly American and, you know, uh, that's what people will take with them.
[00:30:31] But, but you really, what, what you do when you are traveling for work, I mean, you are an ambassador.
[00:30:38] You specifically beyond that, like you're really kind of a cultural ambassador in a way.
[00:30:45] Yeah, I guess I am.
[00:30:47] Yeah.
[00:30:49] Bring in a little bit of, uh, I don't know, bring in a little bit of Texas, uh, bringing a little, you know, bringing the black culture with me.
[00:31:01] Um, the American small town, a little bit of everything.
[00:31:07] I was just thinking just in terms of music, but yeah, I mean, obviously.
[00:31:11] Yeah.
[00:31:12] Just day to day.
[00:31:13] Yeah.
[00:31:13] It's, it's in my, it's in my music too.
[00:31:16] I bring a little bit of the small town girl, um, the all inclusive, you know, being a queer woman.
[00:31:23] I bring all of that to the table too.
[00:31:27] Um, I talk about growing up in the country.
[00:31:32] I, I talk about, uh, being in a huge family, a big family.
[00:31:37] From the country.
[00:31:39] Yeah.
[00:31:40] I guess I do bring a little bit of that.
[00:31:43] And I hadn't thought about that.
[00:31:44] Thank you for pointing that out.
[00:31:46] Maybe that's what, what's happening with this music is starting to really, people are starting to get it.
[00:31:53] You know, it's, it's, it's very, it's very different when you open my book.
[00:31:59] You can look at me and think one thing, but once I get a chance to really talk about and sing about.
[00:32:05] And get, bring you into my world.
[00:32:09] It's very, very different.
[00:32:11] It's deep.
[00:32:11] This could be a days long conversation in and of itself, but I guess give me sort of the CliffsNotes version.
[00:32:17] Um, what do you feel like people's expectations are of you?
[00:32:24] And how do you feel that the picture that you're showing them is, is different?
[00:32:29] Hmm.
[00:32:31] Yeah.
[00:32:31] That's, that is big.
[00:32:32] That is a bigger conversation.
[00:32:38] Yeah.
[00:32:38] I don't know what people see, but I, you know, I, yeah, I guess I do see what people see, but.
[00:32:46] I mean like the hobbyists that you carrying a guitar and somebody saying you're hobbyists like that, that's an example of that.
[00:32:52] True.
[00:32:53] Yeah.
[00:32:56] I don't know what they're expecting when they see that.
[00:32:59] Honestly, I say blues.
[00:33:01] I say soul.
[00:33:03] I say reggae.
[00:33:04] I say gospel.
[00:33:06] And, and I see the head tilt because they're not sure all of those things go together when they do.
[00:33:15] It's all music.
[00:33:17] Um, yeah, it baffles me.
[00:33:22] I'm still trying to figure it out myself.
[00:33:24] How did the reggae part enter the picture for you?
[00:33:28] Reggae to me is very grounding.
[00:33:30] There's something about the groove in reggae that makes me feel like I don't have my shoes on anymore.
[00:33:38] Like my feet are connected to the earth.
[00:33:44] Yeah.
[00:33:44] It makes me feel very connected.
[00:33:48] I don't know what it is.
[00:33:50] You know, it's, it's that thing that they talk about with babies and heartbeats.
[00:33:54] You know, it's, it's a connection that you, you don't know what it is, but.
[00:34:00] You know, it's part of you.
[00:34:02] And reggae is very much that.
[00:34:07] Without calling it a religion.
[00:34:08] It's not that.
[00:34:09] It's just a connection.
[00:34:11] I mean, it is for some people.
[00:34:13] Yeah.
[00:34:13] True that.
[00:34:15] Very true.
[00:34:16] And I respect that.
[00:34:18] Because I do run across people who, who, at once I get to the CD table, they, they do that thing where, you know, sister, sister, you know me, you know me.
[00:34:29] And I'm like, Hey man, I just needed to feel it.
[00:34:33] I just needed to go there.
[00:34:34] I did that for myself.
[00:34:37] Yeah.
[00:34:38] You're bringing, you're bringing Jaws love with you.
[00:34:41] Yeah.
[00:34:41] Whether, whether.
[00:34:43] But is, is that, that, that, that connection with the earth is, that's really interesting.
[00:34:49] Is that something that you feel with these other kinds of music that we're talking about?
[00:34:53] Or is that kind of unique to Jamaican music?
[00:34:56] I think it's with everything.
[00:34:58] You know, Jamaican music is really just part of it.
[00:35:02] But it, to me, music is about groove, which is probably why I mix it up so much.
[00:35:09] I mix up the genres so much.
[00:35:12] And I, my guys, they all know this.
[00:35:14] I will start one song and then I will pivot into a totally different groove.
[00:35:20] It just depends on what I'm talking about.
[00:35:22] I'm, I'm, I banter in between songs and, and they don't know what I'm going to go to next
[00:35:31] because they're just listening.
[00:35:32] Where is she going?
[00:35:33] Where is she going?
[00:35:34] She's talking about, oh, okay.
[00:35:36] So the drummer's changing from brushes to sticks or, you know, sticks to brushes because he's not
[00:35:42] sure where I'm going.
[00:35:45] I, every set that I do, I do have a set list.
[00:35:48] I have an outline of what I want to do, but I'm really,
[00:35:52] really reading the room.
[00:35:53] To me, it's just about picking up what's going on in the room,
[00:35:58] which is why I don't do a set list until just maybe an hour before I go out
[00:36:05] because I'm reading what's going on out, out there.
[00:36:10] Yeah.
[00:36:10] But, but it's still, it's still dynamic even once you're actually on stage.
[00:36:15] Very much so.
[00:36:16] That's important for me, which is why I will mix it up too.
[00:36:19] If I don't feel like I'm ready to go to an upbeat song and I need to go deeper.
[00:36:28] Or, you know, sometimes it's really as simple as reading one person in the room
[00:36:33] who I can tell were dragged kicking and screaming to the concert.
[00:36:40] You see the one person and you're like, I have to win this person over.
[00:36:45] Challenge.
[00:36:45] That's my goal for the rest of the night.
[00:36:47] I accept the challenge.
[00:36:49] And sure enough, nine times out of 10, okay, maybe eight, they'll come to the CD table.
[00:36:56] Some people just don't want to come around, you know?
[00:36:58] Some people just want to have a bad day.
[00:37:00] Yeah.
[00:37:00] That's just, you know, they want to get back to it because there's a football game on.
[00:37:04] I get it.
[00:37:05] Yeah.
[00:37:05] You know?
[00:37:06] Yeah.
[00:37:06] I totally get it.
[00:37:07] You should get that as much as anyone.
[00:37:09] I'm a sports fan.
[00:37:10] I totally get it.
[00:37:11] I've missed some huge games.
[00:37:12] Yeah.
[00:37:13] But just leaving the house, like especially after the pandemic and being stuck there for
[00:37:18] four years, it's like, I feel like I just had so much momentum and I lost momentum.
[00:37:25] And momentum was just such a part of what kept me going.
[00:37:29] And it's gotten a lot more difficult to leave the house.
[00:37:32] Yeah.
[00:37:33] I agree.
[00:37:34] It's going to be real hard for me to leave the house after this month.
[00:37:38] Real tough.
[00:37:39] But I've got a big year coming.
[00:37:44] A lot of international flights coming up for the first quarter.
[00:37:48] So this is why I use this time.
[00:37:51] I use this time to watch my train.
[00:37:54] I have a train track that's right behind my house.
[00:37:56] You probably just heard it.
[00:37:58] And I love trains.
[00:38:00] I grew up with trains.
[00:38:02] And I love to hear that sound.
[00:38:04] It's very comforting to me.
[00:38:07] And yeah, it's going to be real hard to leave my little house next month.
[00:38:13] But I don't want to think about that right now.
[00:38:14] It's all good.
[00:38:15] There's the whistle.
[00:38:16] But there's also something, obviously, it's very rhythmic.
[00:38:19] And it is very grounding.
[00:38:21] And there's a metaphor as part of it.
[00:38:26] But even beyond that, I think there's a reason why trains have been such a part of music.
[00:38:31] They just lend themselves really well to it.
[00:38:34] Yeah, the whole travel thing.
[00:38:36] You don't know where it's going, where it came from.
[00:38:39] But even just the rhythm and the sounds that they make.
[00:38:43] Yeah.
[00:38:44] And this was pretty close.
[00:38:45] It's, I'm not right on top of it.
[00:38:48] But it was enough to where when I moved here, my kid, she was six years old.
[00:38:57] And she, it kind of scared her.
[00:39:02] And so I made it a game.
[00:39:04] So when one, we heard one coming, you know, we'd both just get really excited.
[00:39:09] I got her to just get excited and just yell, train!
[00:39:13] And we go run to go watch it.
[00:39:16] And then we count the cars.
[00:39:18] I made it a game for her.
[00:39:19] So now she's like, train!
[00:39:22] In the middle of the night.
[00:39:24] In the middle of the night sometimes.
[00:39:25] She's 13 now.
[00:39:27] So, but yeah, it's one of those things where she learned that it is comforting.
[00:39:34] It is something that you can rely on because they're always on time.
[00:39:40] And I love it.
[00:39:41] I've done a few concerts on a, I think it was called a folk train.
[00:39:46] It started in Kansas City and it went through Colorado, which is beautiful on a train, by the way.
[00:39:53] I will say, you should experience that.
[00:39:55] I guess it was last year.
[00:39:57] Yeah, this time last year I did something that I had been wanting to do for a really long time.
[00:40:02] So I'm from the San Francisco area originally.
[00:40:06] And I'd always wanted to do the Coastal Starlight and just to take the Amtrak up.
[00:40:14] And I did.
[00:40:14] I went all the way up to Vancouver.
[00:40:17] And it was everything I hoped it would be.
[00:40:23] You know, even just like sleeping on the train, which is more comfortable than sleeping on the plane, even if you don't have sleep car seats.
[00:40:33] And waking up at, you know, waking up at five in the morning because I'm still on Eastern time and just going into the, I guess, I don't know what I even called it, but like the conversation car and just being there alone.
[00:40:50] Nobody else is up and just sort of watching the world go by.
[00:40:55] It's magical.
[00:40:56] It really, truly is.
[00:40:58] It is that.
[00:40:59] It's like Christmas to me.
[00:41:02] It really is because you're going through all of these little towns and they're not necessarily blowing their horns, but you hear the, you know, the ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
[00:41:12] You hear that and you see the cars that are waiting for you to go by.
[00:41:17] And for me, going through Colorado was just beautiful.
[00:41:23] We went through Tocumson Valley, just, you know, and there are songs about that.
[00:41:31] And to actually see the snow and you see so much of the countryside, you see just beautiful, beautiful countryside.
[00:41:41] And if you have the chance to have a sleeper car, it's even more magical getting up, you know, you're awake in the middle of the night and you get to see your,
[00:41:50] you're just basically going through all of these little small towns.
[00:41:54] It was so wonderful for me to get a chance to actually not just, there was a performance car on the train and obviously a dining room car, dining car and an observation car.
[00:42:07] And that's the other thing.
[00:42:09] You have all these cars that are dedicated to what you want to do while you're moving.
[00:42:13] And then you have a stop.
[00:42:15] You actually have a chance to get out and visit the train station or just move around and get to see a different city.
[00:42:25] Totally get that.
[00:42:26] I totally love that.
[00:42:27] But yeah, this is my little house and I love it because of that.
[00:42:33] And I grew up next to train stations because that's where they put a lot of the poor communities.
[00:42:38] You know, and I grew up in a poor community.
[00:42:40] And so I just got used to hearing that sound throughout the night.
[00:42:46] And I'm grateful enough to have a place that I can call my own that reminds me of that.
[00:42:53] There's something about that too.
[00:42:54] And you don't get this on planes, but, you know, getting back to this conversation about meeting your neighbors, you're kind of forced into that on a train.
[00:43:03] And you train people or, by and large, I think more interesting than plane people and maybe have better stories.
[00:43:10] I agree.
[00:43:11] Serious.
[00:43:12] Much so.
[00:43:13] Yeah, you're not just going to pass them.
[00:43:15] You're going to end up, because there's not a lot of room to walk, you're going to end up brushing up against them.
[00:43:22] Or you sit down in the observation car and they're right across from you.
[00:43:25] So obviously you start up a conversation.
[00:43:27] Really, it's so true.
[00:43:29] True.
[00:43:30] I love that.
[00:43:31] I love that about trains.
[00:43:33] And even if they don't think that they're interesting, there's something about everybody on that.
[00:43:40] Everybody has a story.
[00:43:41] And I love that part.
[00:43:44] Even people who think they're boring, I think, usually have a pretty good idea of one or two stories that makes them interesting to other people.
[00:43:52] Absolutely.
[00:43:54] Totally agree.
[00:43:55] Now you're making me want to, I need another train ride.
[00:43:59] And I've done, I've done that ride up to Vancouver.
[00:44:03] It is a beautiful ride.
[00:44:05] Part of your story that really interested me is it seems like, you know, you mentioned Winnie Houston and Anita Baker.
[00:44:11] And that lines up with you moving out to New York City during this time before the industry collapses.
[00:44:23] And, you know, when record labels are kind of, certainly more than now, they're trying out new things.
[00:44:31] And you did get a taste of that, right?
[00:44:36] I mean, you did enter that world.
[00:44:38] And you got signed by Atlantic.
[00:44:39] Is that right?
[00:44:40] Yeah.
[00:44:41] And you're right.
[00:44:41] That was pretty much the end of the mega labels.
[00:44:47] I think there were only three, maybe four, even during that period.
[00:44:52] And I had been shopped, scouted, whatever you want to call it, by all of them.
[00:45:01] I know Columbia came out, but Atlantic wanted me.
[00:45:05] And they were the first to present an actual contract.
[00:45:12] And here's the thing that happened when I signed, and I can say this because I'm not in a contract anymore.
[00:45:18] And I'm actually, I actually, you know, consider myself friends with the guy who actually signed me.
[00:45:28] These guys, when they signed you during that particular period, they were called development deals.
[00:45:36] They call them a development deal because they, it was more of a gamble.
[00:45:42] They were gambling on you if you would catch on.
[00:45:47] And they would sign you to maybe a certain amount of songs they wanted from you within a certain amount of time.
[00:45:57] It didn't have to be a hit, but basically what they were doing is just holding you.
[00:46:04] It was a holding pattern they put you in.
[00:46:07] And I had a very great lawyer who let me know exactly what I was signing.
[00:46:14] And he arranged this particular contract so that I wouldn't lose my shirt, wouldn't lose anything.
[00:46:21] All I had to do, just keep playing New York and play all of these places and make sure that that Atlantic label was on everything that I put out.
[00:46:34] Because that is what got me in the door.
[00:46:40] And those few years I was there, I was there for three years.
[00:46:44] That was the best advice I could get.
[00:46:47] I learned a lot about how to write a song.
[00:46:50] To me, it was just a, it was a school.
[00:46:53] I used New York as a school to just learn how to craft a song, which is how I ran into people who wrote for these incredible entertainers.
[00:47:06] And I just surrounded myself with people like Barry Eastman, who was a producer for Anita Baker.
[00:47:13] And, you know, you go have lunch and would whoever.
[00:47:18] Because I could just call my guy at Atlantic and he would set me up a dinner or set me up a coffee with somebody.
[00:47:26] So that's what I used it for.
[00:47:28] My lawyer advised me just that.
[00:47:32] And he says, you know, don't expect to be a superstar or anything.
[00:47:35] This is a hugely, very competitive environment that you're in now.
[00:47:41] Use it for yourself.
[00:47:43] Use it to learn how to write songs.
[00:47:45] Use it to make connections.
[00:47:48] Julie Gold, she wrote From a Distance.
[00:47:50] She and I used to go have tuna sandwiches and go, just hang out.
[00:47:58] You know, she had just won the, she had just won a Grammy for that song.
[00:48:01] She let me hold a Grammy.
[00:48:03] You know, you know, it was about just hanging out and really getting a chance to, you know, to, you know, you're, you're invited to the party.
[00:48:14] But it's okay to leave early if you need to or want to.
[00:48:18] You know, I was that girl who was chosen to, you know, be a background singer and sometimes a front singer for, oh gosh, where were we?
[00:48:33] It's a little place right around the corner from Madison Square.
[00:48:37] The Downbeat Club, I think it was called.
[00:48:40] It was right next to a precinct.
[00:48:43] I think it was called Downbeat.
[00:48:44] And the SNL crowd would come in after they finished taping.
[00:48:48] And so Chris Farley would come in.
[00:48:52] And, you know, all hell broke loose when Chris Farley showed up.
[00:48:55] Good luck holding people's attention.
[00:48:57] Oh my God.
[00:48:58] Chris Farley's in a room.
[00:48:59] Yeah, he showed up.
[00:49:01] No matter what we're playing, no matter what we're doing on stage, we had to go into Mustang Sally.
[00:49:08] That was his song.
[00:49:09] When he walked in, you go into Mustang Sally.
[00:49:13] And then the night, you don't know what's going to happen, you know, at the end of the rest of the night.
[00:49:22] Probably would, this would probably be one of the reasons I ended up divorced after I left.
[00:49:28] Yeah.
[00:49:31] You had too much fun?
[00:49:32] I was having so much fun.
[00:49:35] Are you kidding me?
[00:49:36] But, you know, my husband at the time, he was having a good time, too.
[00:49:40] He was a trumpet player for a Puerto Rican band.
[00:49:42] So these guys wouldn't get in until five o'clock in the morning.
[00:49:45] So, hey.
[00:49:47] Hey.
[00:49:47] So we were both having our own little separate good times.
[00:49:51] But, yeah.
[00:49:52] Chris would walk in and, you know, it was just such a blast to hang out in these places, legendary places, and just say that you're there.
[00:50:06] I remember sitting on a curb at Buddy Guy was in town.
[00:50:11] I remember that.
[00:50:13] And I can't remember the spot, legendary place in New York.
[00:50:19] And just sitting, you know, and watching cabs go by.
[00:50:25] And my friend, she walks up behind me.
[00:50:28] She's like, are you okay?
[00:50:29] And I'm like, I'm in freaking New York, man.
[00:50:33] At three o'clock in the morning, Buddy Guy.
[00:50:36] He's just added another set.
[00:50:38] And I'm here.
[00:50:39] You know, it's just one of those surreal places I've always wanted to experience.
[00:50:47] And I did that.
[00:50:49] I can say I did that.
[00:50:51] And this is also why it's important to me to emphasize that.
[00:50:57] Young people, you know, you have that need, that want to get out and let loose and cut loose.
[00:51:03] Do it.
[00:51:05] That's what I think.
[00:51:06] That's why I think having a passport is just part.
[00:51:08] Make your own passport.
[00:51:11] Be safe.
[00:51:12] Make good decisions.
[00:51:13] Yeah.
[00:51:13] There is that.
[00:51:14] Get out there.
[00:51:15] Have, you know, somebody in your little friend circle who can kind of, you know, bring it all back together.
[00:51:21] I was very lucky.
[00:51:23] I always had someone in my friend circle who would bring us back to reality.
[00:51:30] But, yeah, I really enjoyed my time in New York.
[00:51:34] Like I said, it kicked my ass in a lot of places, too, in a lot of ways.
[00:51:40] I got a lot of doors closed and doors open at the same time.
[00:51:47] But I just kept going.
[00:51:49] It taught me perseverance and learning how to always walk on the sunny side when it's a really dreary day.
[00:52:00] Walk where it's warm.
[00:52:02] Again, literally.
[00:52:04] Literally.
[00:52:09] You left the city and you left your record contract to be with your family.
[00:52:15] Your brother was sick at the time.
[00:52:21] How difficult was that decision?
[00:52:24] And did you feel like, oh, this just might be the end of my music life?
[00:52:31] It was a little bit of that, but being helpful to my mother, that meant more to me.
[00:52:44] And I had a marriage that wasn't really, you know, we weren't really, we were better friends than we were partners.
[00:52:55] And we knew this.
[00:52:57] So I think it was, the writing was on the wall when it came to that.
[00:53:02] As far as the career, the music career, I was okay with leaving.
[00:53:08] I had no problem leaving that.
[00:53:13] I knew it would always be there.
[00:53:15] My mother always told me that.
[00:53:17] Girl music, it will always be there.
[00:53:19] There will always be some place you can play and sing.
[00:53:24] And I just trusted that.
[00:53:27] It was a little disheartening because I was, that particular period when I did decide to leave, things was starting to kick in for me.
[00:53:36] You know, I had just gotten that call by these producers and I was just getting my headshots done and things were starting to pick up.
[00:53:46] So in that way, I even had friends who, I'm friends with them now, but during that period, they chastised me for leaving in the middle of, you know, you're about to be something.
[00:53:59] You're about, something's about to happen and what are you doing?
[00:54:02] And they would call me in Texas.
[00:54:04] They would call me and just give me, you know, just really just give me a hard time for leaving.
[00:54:13] But I knew I'd made the right decision because I only had three years before my mother passed.
[00:54:20] And I got more out of that three years than I have gotten from anybody, anywhere, at any other time.
[00:54:31] My mother showed me who she was as a woman.
[00:54:36] She shared stories with me as a woman when she fell in love with my dad.
[00:54:43] Two adults.
[00:54:43] Yes.
[00:54:44] I got a chance to be in the room with another woman, not just my mom, not just my mama.
[00:54:52] She opened up to me in ways that I was shocked by some of the things she was telling me.
[00:55:00] Like, mama, you did that?
[00:55:02] Ooh.
[00:55:03] You know?
[00:55:05] So she gave me that gift.
[00:55:07] She gave me this incredible gift before she left.
[00:55:11] And I think that's why, I know that's why, I had to go full tilt boogie into the music world when she passed.
[00:55:24] And I think that's why, I think, you know, she was a singer.
[00:55:29] And just letting, you know, giving me the honor and giving me the courage and giving me the go ahead to just, you take that and you run with that baby.
[00:55:41] You show them what that's about.
[00:55:44] Take some of me with you.
[00:55:46] And that is what I've been doing since.
[00:55:48] I will say that that was the smartest, best move I could have ever made.
[00:55:56] And, yeah, huge.
[00:56:00] Started my career.
[00:56:02] I don't want to even say it as a career.
[00:56:03] It just started my life.
[00:56:07] It really did.
[00:56:08] I learned how to live my life when I had those three years, just those three years with her.
[00:56:15] And hearing her finally say, not that I was waiting for it, but she was in this little nursing home for a while.
[00:56:27] She had lupus.
[00:56:29] And so that's, yes, it's, you know.
[00:56:33] It's degenerative.
[00:56:34] Yeah, degenerative.
[00:56:35] It's a blood disease.
[00:56:36] And so she had to be taken care of in this facility.
[00:56:40] Well, I made sure I had an apartment just half a block away from the facility.
[00:56:45] So I was close to her.
[00:56:46] So she would come stay with me every weekend, a couple of times a week.
[00:56:51] So, you know, she lived halfway with me and halfway there.
[00:56:56] And I would go into her room to let her do my hair.
[00:56:59] She was a hairdresser.
[00:57:00] She was a beautician.
[00:57:01] She would do my hair before my shows on the weekends.
[00:57:04] Your mom did a lot of stuff.
[00:57:05] Thank you.
[00:57:06] See?
[00:57:07] This is where I get this from.
[00:57:10] So, yeah, she would tease my hair to Jesus.
[00:57:12] And then, you know, I'd walk out and have to pull it back down again before I go on stage.
[00:57:20] But she was a part of my life.
[00:57:22] I made her a part of my life.
[00:57:24] And she let me into her life.
[00:57:27] Ooh, there's a song in that.
[00:57:28] I need to write that down.
[00:57:30] During that period.
[00:57:32] And we just became one, you know.
[00:57:35] She was my sister, not just my mother.
[00:57:38] But it was like I got to know this woman as another woman.
[00:57:44] And it was just huge for me to get that chance to be in her light.
[00:57:51] It wasn't about me during that period.
[00:57:54] And I knew that.
[00:57:56] And I was fine with that.
[00:57:57] I did music once in a while on the side.
[00:58:01] But for the most part, I had a day job.
[00:58:04] I worked at a TV station as a production assistant.
[00:58:08] And I loved that job, too, by the way.
[00:58:11] But it gave me a chance to just be with her and get a chance to see who she was.
[00:58:18] And in that, I could tell her story.
[00:58:22] And that's what I'm doing.
[00:58:23] Even now, her stories intermingle with my story right now.
[00:58:28] These days, I've been fighting so much.