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[00:00:11] It is. I love it here. I thought of moving in my early 20s and then just with all the touring and everything, staying in one place is pretty sweet. So I love it here.
[00:00:25] Where were you considering moving to?
[00:00:27] I didn't really have an idea. I mean, like the normal New York, LA, more arts opportunities, some would say. But I also love, I mean, I considered lots of places, like even like New Mexico or...
[00:00:42] You know, Austin, Texas or, you know, somewhere like that.
[00:00:46] Do you do that thing when you're on tour where you're in a city and you're like, I think I could probably live in here at some point? This place that is like dramatically different from the place that I currently live in?
[00:00:59] Absolutely. That's like the New Mexico thing. It's just the first time we went on tour and I visited there. There was something about it that was really appealing. Just the Southwest in general has that kind of...
[00:01:08] I think a lot of people feel that. And a lot of people are like, what? Why would you move there? But it's really beautiful and just cool.
[00:01:17] I get it. I think there's something like... I mean, you get this in Seattle. Maybe this is just the Twin Peaks thing that you have in Seattle.
[00:01:24] But there's something like mystical about the high desert, you know? There is something like...
[00:01:31] Strangely magical out there.
[00:01:34] Definitely. I kind of feel similarly in a different way about the South, like the deeper South too. Like I love the Carolinas and, you know, like New Orleans, Louisiana.
[00:01:43] There's different... I mean, I don't know. There's so many cool cities in the States. Even sometimes going to Ohio, like Columbus, Ohio. I'm like, I wouldn't move here, but there's a lot of cool cities.
[00:01:53] Yeah. I've had that feeling in Minneapolis for sure. Madison, Wisconsin. I was in Atlanta. I really... For the first time I spent time in Atlanta.
[00:02:04] And I feel the same way about Atlanta, Atlanta that I do Minneapolis, which is this would be a great place to live three to four months out of the year.
[00:02:12] Yeah. I hear you there for sure. This... With the South is that whole issue of humidity and heat that... I love the Pacific Northwest weather.
[00:02:22] Like, you know, a lot of people complain about the rain and the cold, but it's like pretty ideal.
[00:02:27] I like it cooler than hotter for sure, but not that cold. Not Minneapolis winter.
[00:02:33] Yeah. And climate change is like making it a more pleasant place to live.
[00:02:38] True.
[00:02:39] Somewhat ironically.
[00:02:40] We'll see how that works. Yeah.
[00:02:41] It sounded like you were alluding to kind of maybe a period in your early 20s when you were really...
[00:02:46] I guess that was when you were first trying to explore doing this for a living.
[00:02:51] Yeah. Yeah. It was like the...
[00:02:53] That was kind of the crazy time where like, you know, you have a dream career and then you embark on that kind of quest.
[00:03:02] And like going on tour as a musician feels very quest-like.
[00:03:07] Like it's a big adventure.
[00:03:10] You know, you're playing those songs you've written in your basement for people seeing what they think.
[00:03:15] So yeah, those first few years of the band going on tour was super exciting in that way.
[00:03:21] And honestly, the money part wasn't really on my mind as much as just getting out there and doing it.
[00:03:27] That came a little later when I realized that I wanted to make a good living too.
[00:03:33] There's a lot that you're willing to put up with in your...
[00:03:36] Especially your early 20s, you know, in terms of...
[00:03:39] I guess in terms of...
[00:03:40] There's a certain level of misery that I think that you're willing to put up with.
[00:03:44] Especially, I mean, in a case like this where you were chasing a very romantic dream.
[00:03:49] I mean, it sounds like what you're doing now, this was kind of more or less the plan all along.
[00:03:56] Yeah, definitely.
[00:03:57] I think I didn't know, you know, reality wasn't as clear to me at the time though.
[00:04:03] You know, as often when you're young and ambitious in that way, it's like, you know, I was very lucky to have a supportive family and like something to fall back on.
[00:04:12] So I wasn't just, you know, if I didn't make the rent, I was screwed.
[00:04:17] I had a lot of support, which kind of...
[00:04:19] I think that's what allowed me to go there and just dream and go for it.
[00:04:26] And I mean, I loved it.
[00:04:28] I'm glad I got to have that period.
[00:04:29] But man, like you're saying, you can put up with a lot of misery.
[00:04:32] It's such a relief to grow up in these other ways.
[00:04:35] And like, you know, get one with reality where I'm like, oh, I really like having a comfortable place to live in a steady routine most of the year.
[00:04:45] And I can write better music that way.
[00:04:46] You can write better music when you're comfortable?
[00:04:49] I mean, I think there's an argument for going outside of the comfort zone to get inspiration as well.
[00:04:53] But I think mental health and stability wise, comfort, I think is really helpful in like allowing, you know, real thoughtful artistry and work.
[00:05:07] Whereas when life is hectic and crazy, you might get that one great album and those few great inspired songs.
[00:05:13] But it's hard to know how far you can take that, I guess.
[00:05:17] Did you see that Van Gogh movie that came out and like with Willem Dafoe a while back?
[00:05:23] And I don't know how much you know about his life, but, you know, famously was not recognized really as a great artist during his life.
[00:05:31] But I guess I didn't never really realize like the level of really mental health disorders that he had and the role that that played in the art that he made.
[00:05:45] And ultimately, at the end of the day, like, I don't know, that's that's a rough trade off to make to feel like you're making like some really great art at the expense of leading a manageable life.
[00:05:58] That's a great point.
[00:05:59] I remember I brought this up in like another interview recently, but it's really an important theme.
[00:06:04] So it's worth saying again that like I listened to this Neil Young interview and he was talking about, you know, like the people who died young, you know, the Kurt Cobain, Jimi Hendrix and like burning out versus fading away.
[00:06:18] Got that song.
[00:06:18] Yeah.
[00:06:19] Yeah, exactly.
[00:06:19] And his whole point was that like burning out is awesome if your whole life is rock and roll and all you care about is rock and roll.
[00:06:26] Then, yeah, it's the coolest.
[00:06:27] You know, it's it's the most rock and roll thing you can do.
[00:06:29] But life is a lot more than that.
[00:06:32] And I think that's kind of how I felt at the beginning is I was like solely focused on rock and roll in a kind of naive, not kind of naive, a fairly naive way that was not particularly healthy.
[00:06:43] And to me, like the artists that I there's there's amazing artists who burnt out and then there's amazing artists who didn't.
[00:06:52] And I think personally, I'd rather have a rich life with a long and rich life that includes art as opposed to the burnout.
[00:07:00] When you say it wasn't healthy, you mean from the standpoint of just investing too much of yourself specifically in your music career versus personal life?
[00:07:09] I think that's one way to think about it.
[00:07:12] That's definitely true.
[00:07:12] And I think as well, like there's a lot of misconceptions that I had about life and about, you know, being in rock and roll and what that life should or could be in terms of partying and like pursuing this kind of glorified image of what that life is.
[00:07:34] And I think that misses out so much on on what a healthy, fulfilling life can be.
[00:07:41] You know, that image of just being the rock star and whatever that entails in your in my teenage brain.
[00:07:48] And I brought that into my early 20s and turns out that isn't as nearly that isn't really real.
[00:07:53] And it also isn't as much fun as I thought.
[00:07:57] That's not really a paradigm that it kind of exists.
[00:08:00] Certainly not in 2024.
[00:08:03] No, and I don't think it's a good paradigm to begin with.
[00:08:05] I mean, it's fun to watch on TV, right?
[00:08:08] It's like a TV show.
[00:08:09] It's like you're like, oh, look at that.
[00:08:11] That looks awesome.
[00:08:12] But in reality, we're all, you know, eating, breathing humans and, you know, balance, healthy relationships, healthy work, like work life balance.
[00:08:24] All that stuff is is really important.
[00:08:26] Obviously, there are certainly people who prove this wrong, but even making a living making music at obviously everything's been really stratified as far as.
[00:08:41] You know, the different the distance between the really top people and the mid tier.
[00:08:47] Certainly, I would say.
[00:08:50] I certainly wouldn't encourage my kids to pursue a career in making music.
[00:08:58] Are you able to survive specifically on the band's work?
[00:09:04] I suppose I could.
[00:09:06] Actually, no, I couldn't.
[00:09:07] No, the answer is absolutely no.
[00:09:10] I mean, there were years where I could just get by.
[00:09:14] But I'm pursuing other careers right now.
[00:09:19] And, you know, we've all taught music lessons, all three of us in the band.
[00:09:23] And I'm back in I'm in grad school now and I'm starting another career.
[00:09:28] But that brings up the question, too, is like that part of me that that had that dream and that like where songwriting feels like the most like self-actualized thing I can do is still there.
[00:09:41] I think there's a way to like, you know, have another career, go back to school and not give up that.
[00:09:48] But of course, if I got the opportunity and could make a great living and just record records and play shows, I'd probably do it.
[00:09:57] When you say self-actualized, you mean that it's sort of the purest form in which you can express yourself?
[00:10:03] Yeah.
[00:10:04] And it feels like in a way that maybe is not quite realistic.
[00:10:09] It feels it has that weightiness of like meaning or I hesitate to say spirituality, but it has that feel of like real importance.
[00:10:21] Like, yeah, when I'm creating, I'm, you know, even jamming or like writing a song that I connect with.
[00:10:27] It does feel like the most important thing that I do, at least in a creative way, obviously, like relationships and other aspects are important.
[00:10:36] But yeah.
[00:10:37] Why do you hesitate to say in the spiritual sense?
[00:10:40] I think it's too corny.
[00:10:42] You think you're imbuing it with too much meaning that isn't there?
[00:10:47] That's a good point.
[00:10:48] I think that it's not that I worry it's corny.
[00:10:50] I think spirituality is a great part of life for me and many other people.
[00:10:56] But I think I hesitate to, like you said, put that kind of emphasis on it as if it's from another source, as opposed to more of like a psychological process that I find extremely satisfying.
[00:11:11] And I don't know which one it is.
[00:11:12] I can't say for sure, but it feels more likely that it's really important to me.
[00:11:17] And I think knowing how much music has affected me making something that I feel that way about, that I felt about other great music that I love, it connects me to others because I feel like that communal sense of enjoying the meaning in music and being touched by it.
[00:11:34] When you say coming from another source, in the sense that a lot of people describe this notion of almost like channeling something from outside of themselves.
[00:11:47] Yeah.
[00:11:48] I think it's hard not to feel that way when you sit down with a guitar and one day, or at least for me, I'll sit down with a guitar and one day I'll write one of the favorite things I've ever written.
[00:12:01] And I wasn't really thinking, I was just playing, and I will usually write lyrics first, they'll just come.
[00:12:09] And so sometimes looking back at what I've made, it feels less like when you start a project, you have a plan and you execute.
[00:12:16] It's more like, I don't know how that happened.
[00:12:19] I just sat down and I felt something, you know, and I created it.
[00:12:25] So it doesn't feel like I made it.
[00:12:27] It feels like I channeled it for sure.
[00:12:29] But what that other source is, I don't know.
[00:12:32] Unconscious, subconscious, external, no clue.
[00:12:35] If you want to have a career making music, if you want to create music with any kind of regularity, that's not something certainly that you can count on.
[00:12:43] I mean, there are days when you really do have to sort of force yourself and you have to force the process to a certain extent.
[00:12:50] That's true, too.
[00:12:51] I think I always have tried to lean on the former, like lean on those really strong inspiration points.
[00:13:00] I mean, if they're coming, by all means, yeah.
[00:13:03] But I think the process is inspiring, too.
[00:13:06] And that's like the key point that I've heard that great artists mention.
[00:13:10] It's like, you know, start doing the work and you will be inspired as you go.
[00:13:15] Because I can't give up on the inspiration.
[00:13:17] Like, I can't make a song and be like, yeah, this is cool.
[00:13:21] I'm going to, you know, just bang in my hammer away on it.
[00:13:25] I have to find inspiration in the next layer on the recording or the next let's pull out a synth and then I'm inspired to find a cool sound or whatever it is.
[00:13:33] There's a lot said and I've seen a lot of the reactions to this album in terms of maybe going in a different direction, maybe being a little bit more mature.
[00:13:42] It sounds like a big part of that is exploring new sounds, exploring more layers.
[00:13:50] You find that just generally that your stuff tends to get more complicated as you keep doing it?
[00:13:58] Potentially, I might actually say the opposite for this record in some ways, like layering and like, why am I blanking on the word?
[00:14:08] But definitely in terms of layering and dynamics, it's like more complex.
[00:14:15] But in terms of, yeah, but in terms of musicality and other aspects, like, you know, often even in the very beginning of the band, odd time signatures, weird songwriting, kind of complex musical aspects were involved.
[00:14:31] And we've kind of pared that down a bit for the record in a lot of ways so that we're more focused on like meaning and emotion, which I think caters to more layering to like emphasize that emotion.
[00:14:43] In a certain sense, it seems like those kinds of really raw emotions are easier to access when you're younger, that they're they're pure and they're more they're more raw.
[00:14:54] But it's said to a certain extent, it sounds like you've gone in the opposite direction.
[00:14:59] I think.
[00:15:01] To me, looking back, a lot of the.
[00:15:05] You know, younger emotions.
[00:15:08] They're easier to access, but the way they're expressed through music is often very adolescent, like and a bit on the nose, maybe where life is full of like nuance and complexity.
[00:15:18] And I think the more you can write with that nuance and complexity, the more meaning you can convey, because there's only so many times you can hear a song that's like, I'm really sad and upset and I'm angry at the same time.
[00:15:32] And yeah, you can connect with that and be like, yeah, this I love this energy, this song.
[00:15:36] But I think at a certain point you've heard those songs, you might still enjoy them, but digging a little deeper can be really satisfying.
[00:15:43] And the great records have that, I think.
[00:15:45] Do you find that you connect to your older music in a different way than at this point?
[00:15:50] Yeah, it's almost like someone else made it.
[00:15:52] I'm sure a lot of people say that in terms of looking back, but it is like I remember that guy that I was.
[00:15:58] I remember what it felt like.
[00:16:00] And, you know, it's still me, but it's fun.
[00:16:04] It's like it's like listening to another band, which is cool because I think the ego is kind of stripped from it.
[00:16:11] Whereas right after you make the record or right after we would make a record, sometimes you'd cringe a little bit because you hear what you actually sound like.
[00:16:19] And you're like, whoa, OK, I didn't think my voice sounded like that.
[00:16:23] Or those lyrics are a bit cringey to me now.
[00:16:25] And looking back, me might still cringe a little bit because you know it's you.
[00:16:29] But you go, oh, wow, I see what those guys were doing.
[00:16:31] That was cool.
[00:16:32] I see what I was going for.
[00:16:33] I was thinking about this in terms of just like looking at old pictures of myself.
[00:16:38] You know, I don't know if you've had this experience.
[00:16:40] And it's just like, oh, man, I was so down on myself the way I looked when I was such and such age.
[00:16:45] And I look back and it's just like, yeah, I wasn't a bad looking fellow back then.
[00:16:51] But, man, when you're in the middle of it, it's impossible to detangle yourself from that.
[00:16:58] Absolutely.
[00:17:00] Yeah.
[00:17:05] And it sounds like there's also a tendency to really almost to overcomplicate things.
[00:17:10] You're talking a little bit again about the complex time signatures.
[00:17:15] To a certain extent, is that a direct outgrowth of studying music?
[00:17:21] I think it's a mix of things.
[00:17:23] I think there's like excitement in finding chemistry with other musicians and exploring.
[00:17:32] Music kind of like putting together everything you've heard.
[00:17:36] And, you know, we I think all three of us have studied music more after those first records and after starting the band in terms of theory and actually understanding music in a different way.
[00:17:47] So exploration kind of fueled a lot of that as well as I think some like bombast and like that real urge to make a mark.
[00:17:59] And I think that fueled a lot of those first albums was like.
[00:18:03] Let's make, you know, this riff as exciting as possible and let's make it go somewhere else that's even more exciting and pull back somewhere else that's even more exciting.
[00:18:14] And so everything was based around that as opposed to like serving the song.
[00:18:18] Broadly speaking, would you say that that having subsequently studied music that that has generally improved your music and your songwriting?
[00:18:27] I think so.
[00:18:29] But it's funny, again, that it seems to have simplified a lot of my songwriting.
[00:18:33] Not that I or I or we couldn't go a more complex direction again if we chose to.
[00:18:40] But I think maybe at least personally, I found more satisfaction in simpler songwriting.
[00:18:48] And it's almost harder to write.
[00:18:52] You're trying to say more with less.
[00:18:54] Yes, exactly.
[00:18:55] And and there's been so many great simple songs to write a new one like or try.
[00:19:02] At least I want to say I've written a great simple song, but to try and strive for a great like quote unquote timeless simple song is really difficult.
[00:19:11] But like if I can only get there, that'll be the day.
[00:19:16] Generally, when we talk about simplicity in pop music, it's that, you know, it's that kind of punk rock idea.
[00:19:23] It's that idea of the people forming a band and not having any sort of musical practice.
[00:19:28] It's a it's it's a naivete generally when we when we speak of simplicity.
[00:19:32] But is there a way in which.
[00:19:35] Knowing theory and really taking this deep dive into music allows you to, I guess, get to the heart of the matter.
[00:19:50] That's a great question.
[00:19:52] I think.
[00:19:54] I don't know if I tie it together that much.
[00:19:57] Like, I think I think it's been I think that's potentially true because every you know, when you're writing a song, you're making a ton of decisions one after another.
[00:20:09] So you're deciding maybe you've written this verse and there's an emotion contained in it and you need a chord to transfer you to the chorus.
[00:20:17] Having that having the theory, you might think about the actual weight of a given chord or the emotionality that you could add with an extension, etc.
[00:20:27] And that might help you find the simplest, most core example of that emotion that you're looking for.
[00:20:34] So that's to answer that that way.
[00:20:37] I'd say yes, it helps with that.
[00:20:39] There are probably a lot of parallels to be drawn by.
[00:20:43] I don't know why I have painting on the minds.
[00:20:45] I guess it's because I just, again, watch this movie.
[00:20:47] But, you know, you you went to Berkeley, you study music.
[00:20:51] I'm sure that you've you're familiar with a lot of sort of the 20th century classical, a lot of the really minimalist composers.
[00:21:00] Um, these people who in much the same way that painters obviously had to, you know, a lot of them studied the classical forms, but they really kind of had to push through.
[00:21:19] And there's something about having gone through that journey of complexity that really allows them to access the simple in a way that they might not have been able to previously.
[00:21:31] That's a great point.
[00:21:34] It's a really good point.
[00:21:36] And I think, you know, my focus at Berkeley was was more on songwriting and then and some on composition and theory.
[00:21:48] But absolutely, like the further I go into complexity, the more I crave that simplicity.
[00:21:56] I think it can become overwhelming.
[00:21:59] And it reminds me also of like I've been I've been listening to a ton of Radiohead and like everybody.
[00:22:05] But it reminds me of when they like got sick of rock and roll.
[00:22:10] And they, of course, jumped into more complexity in some ways.
[00:22:15] But it's almost like when you overload on that one thing, you crave the other.
[00:22:19] And Neil Young's like this.
[00:22:20] He's like my favorite artists where he'll make a rock and roll record or two and then he'll make just a solo acoustic record.
[00:22:28] And I love that.
[00:22:29] Or just do something really weird.
[00:22:31] Yeah.
[00:22:31] Or he did a lot of that in the 80s, too.
[00:22:33] Yeah.
[00:22:33] Some weird stuff on top.
[00:22:35] Yeah.
[00:22:36] Just go like a full vocoder, vocoder record.
[00:22:39] Yeah.
[00:22:40] Let me let me ask you a kind of naive question, but I don't know.
[00:22:44] Maybe there's maybe there's something more in this.
[00:22:46] And how would you describe the difference between songwriting and composition?
[00:22:56] That's it.
[00:22:57] That's actually quite an interesting question.
[00:22:59] I think in some ways they're the same thing.
[00:23:02] Like, you know, if you're songwriting.
[00:23:05] You're composing.
[00:23:08] But in practice, it feels quite different.
[00:23:12] Songwriting feels fueled more by the moment or more by sitting down with an instrument and playing freely.
[00:23:23] At least for me.
[00:23:24] Some people might songwrite differently.
[00:23:25] For me, it feels like I'm kind of intuiting a song and I continue to intuit it and work on it and refine it.
[00:23:36] And composition feels more like I'm searching for a goal and I'm finding ways to get there.
[00:23:42] And then I'm, you know, expanding on that goal and layering it.
[00:23:47] You have an abstraction in mind when you set out.
[00:23:51] Yes.
[00:23:52] And often it may go back also to functional versus non-functional music.
[00:23:56] And this is something with like film scoring where, yeah, functional music, you're writing a score.
[00:24:00] You're composing a score that's aiding something else.
[00:24:03] And that's not all composing.
[00:24:05] But to me, songwriting is really like for the song in its own right, whatever that is.
[00:24:10] And composing is often more functional.
[00:24:13] Like I'm creating, you know, an ode to this that goes up and down.
[00:24:17] And I'm trying to figure out how to express this momentum or this joy or like ode to joy or whatever.
[00:24:23] Like simple, you know, composing like that.
[00:24:25] Well, not necessarily simple, but yeah.
[00:24:27] You've done some scoring.
[00:24:29] Is that right?
[00:24:30] Some film scoring?
[00:24:30] I would love to do more.
[00:24:33] I studied some film scoring at Berkeley.
[00:24:36] And that was like my goal for a couple of years when I was at Berkeley was to get into film scoring.
[00:24:45] And I haven't really done it since.
[00:24:48] I did, you know, for class, I scored a couple things.
[00:24:51] But outside of that, that's something I would love to get into because I find that really enjoyable.
[00:24:57] Like same thing as our discussion now.
[00:25:00] Like often when I, when I am composing, which I do more of on like synthesizers as opposed to guitar, I'm often imagining a film.
[00:25:08] You know, I'm like I'm setting that vibe and then images come in.
[00:25:12] And I think it'd be incredibly satisfying to reverse that process and watch a film without a score and add that.
[00:25:19] And Johnny Greenwood, you know, from Radiohead is a great influence there.
[00:25:24] There is now a long history of people transitioning from rock into musical scoring.
[00:25:30] And Johnny Greenwood, I know you're talking about the complexities of Radiohead, but Johnny Greenwood is a great example of somebody who has gone out of his way to strip music down.
[00:25:44] You know, I'm thinking about there will be blood or something.
[00:25:47] You know, how can we convey as much emotion as possible with almost as few sounds as possible?
[00:25:54] I think that's a great practice.
[00:25:56] It's like, you know, maximalism versus minimalism.
[00:26:00] And I think he's certainly done both.
[00:26:03] And experimentalism.
[00:26:04] Like, you know, it's just like thinking about visual art, like you were talking about painting.
[00:26:09] Some of the most experimental paintings have been the most minimal, you know, for their time.
[00:26:14] Those were the most experimental and striking because stripping something away is at times just as impactful as as adding everything.
[00:26:23] And I think he was I mean, there will be blood is pretty incredible score.
[00:26:27] So I think he succeeded.
[00:26:29] You were considering this career.
[00:26:30] You're looking at his career and then just kind of being in a band took over.
[00:26:34] I think overall, I decided I wanted to focus on like.
[00:26:42] Honestly, I needed some more money.
[00:26:45] Like I needed a I needed a lifestyle that was a little more stable.
[00:26:52] And so I kind of put that on the back burner.
[00:26:55] I'd still love to get into it.
[00:26:56] And I went for grad school and business and have put just put my focus there.
[00:27:02] And kind of with the hopes that I will find some financial freedom that will enable me to focus on music as much as my heart desires without having to work a labor job or a nine to five that kind of sucks all my creative energy out.
[00:27:18] I love how you're looking for something more stable.
[00:27:20] And then you got it.
[00:27:22] And then and then you're in this rock band for 10 years.
[00:27:28] Yeah, I'll never give that up, though.
[00:27:30] You just didn't have much in the way of expectations of finding success specifically through that channel.
[00:27:37] Obviously, when they come, that's great.
[00:27:39] I think I did really want the success.
[00:27:42] At least I kept that front of mind.
[00:27:44] Everybody wants success, but we're but but not everybody expects it.
[00:27:48] Well, I think it was like a covid wake up call for me because, you know, with everything shut down,
[00:27:54] it was like stepping off the, you know, the elliptical and stop stop just running toward that destination.
[00:28:02] And like, think, how am I really doing otherwise?
[00:28:07] And, you know, what do I envision for my life 10 years from now?
[00:28:11] And then thinking, you know, what if I don't find any more success with this band or with music?
[00:28:15] Like, what will I want to be doing?
[00:28:17] Will I want to be, you know, having a career that doesn't require me to have any more education or experience in a field?
[00:28:26] Or do I want to have like something where I can, you know, make a solid income, have a career that I really enjoy?
[00:28:33] So I thought that way, kind of pragmatic, not as exciting for a rock and roll musician to say.
[00:28:38] But that's the truth.
[00:28:40] We obviously admire those people that we see in, you know, in pop music or rock music,
[00:28:49] which is ostensibly a young person's game who are able to age gracefully.
[00:28:53] But we also recognize that they are very much in the minority.
[00:28:57] And certainly we've seen you've seen how dreams can become sad really quickly.
[00:29:03] That was my vision, man.
[00:29:05] That was like at the low point.
[00:29:08] I had that real image of like two roads of like.
[00:29:12] I saw almost what I would look like and be like an image of that in 10, 20, 30 years.
[00:29:20] And one of them was really grim.
[00:29:22] Like one of them was really, really grim and sad and not a great guy.
[00:29:27] Like I didn't like the guy that, you know, the man that I saw.
[00:29:31] And that was really what informed it was like, I would like to be the kind of man that I want to be.
[00:29:36] And I think I wasn't.
[00:29:39] I wasn't, you know, aligned or integrated with that at the time.
[00:29:43] And so I had to make a decision.
[00:29:44] What did that what did that look like?
[00:29:46] And how have you been able to counteract that?
[00:29:50] I think it just looked like there's a bunch of answers to that question.
[00:29:56] Someone who wasn't reliable, wasn't that accountable, wasn't necessarily that honest, was self self-centered, focused on their own success and artistry and wrapped up in that to the extent that maybe they weren't.
[00:30:11] Well, just selfish, really.
[00:30:12] I mean, if you want to put one word to it, it was like self-centered in that way that I think a lot of artists could be not all, but some.
[00:30:19] Because at the end of the day, creating is for others, but it's very much for you at the end of the day.
[00:30:25] And so I saw that and at the end.
[00:30:27] And so what it's looked like is, I think, you know, involves things like sobriety and, you know, hard work on mental health and relationships.
[00:30:40] And, yeah, I just I don't want to be that that guy that had the dream and didn't make it and still pissed about it.
[00:30:47] Like at the end of the day, that's it.
[00:30:49] Right.
[00:30:49] Oh, you know.
[00:30:50] Yeah.
[00:30:50] Are you sober?
[00:30:52] Yeah.
[00:30:53] Is that a COVID thing?
[00:30:55] Um, I that would probably be a cop out to to call it that, although that was the round at the time that I I made the decision.
[00:31:03] So, yeah, it's been like three and a half years and definitely the best decision I've ever made.
[00:31:09] It's yeah, would never.
[00:31:12] Well, yeah, it's the best decision I've ever made.
[00:31:15] I'll say that.
[00:31:15] Were you go you were going too hard in the other direction?
[00:31:19] Absolutely.
[00:31:20] Absolutely.
[00:31:22] Far too hard.
[00:31:23] And there's, you know, a number of ways to spin it.
[00:31:26] But at the end of the day, it was not sustainable.
[00:31:30] And like what it was doing to my life, my relationships, my mental health was was getting pretty bad.
[00:31:40] In all all manner.
[00:31:42] Yeah.
[00:31:43] It's been about five years since I've had a drink.
[00:31:45] Um, I really, I understand why.
[00:31:52] There are people who, you know, need to what, you know, bottom out or whatever they call it or or need that, um, that external voice telling them that it's it's time to make this change in their life.
[00:32:04] But it's it sounds to me like you were able to sort of see and identify.
[00:32:11] That in yourself and take it upon yourself to make those changes without like bottoming out or, you know, really letting things get bad.
[00:32:20] That's true.
[00:32:21] I think I want to give a lot of credit as well to the people in my life and, you know, in terms of therapy and family, because I think without them, I very well may have had to bottom out because I like, you know, I, I, I had enough support that I was able to.
[00:32:39] I was able to, I was able to see, like I said, like that path ahead and decide for myself, like you're saying, yes, like I don't want this without someone saying you need to go do this.
[00:32:49] Like, but I did need to.
[00:32:52] And people, you know, people in my life knew wasn't a secret.
[00:32:55] Even taking that first step and going to therapy.
[00:32:57] I mean, that's a difficult thing for a lot of people.
[00:33:03] Yeah, it was, it was a must for me since I was a teenager.
[00:33:06] At least I'll say it.
[00:33:09] It was.
[00:33:09] Oh, you got in early.
[00:33:10] I got in early.
[00:33:12] I had, I had some rough, uh, goings on as a, as a teenager.
[00:33:16] And so I like, I'll never forget the day too, when I like asked, uh, my dad to, to see a therapist.
[00:33:25] And it was like, I just remember not really knowing why I was asking, you know, it was like that, like some part of me decided to help myself.
[00:33:35] And it wasn't clear.
[00:33:36] It was, it was hazy.
[00:33:37] It wasn't like, I need to, you know, I'm 15 and I'm really worried about this.
[00:33:43] It was just like, something was just like, I think you need some help.
[00:33:47] Uh, and so I'm a big advocate for therapy, especially you look at musicians and like the number of artists and musicians who have serious issues and, and end up dead.
[00:33:59] I mean, so like to me, there's no point in mincing words about it or, or any of that, you know, it's, it is what it is.
[00:34:07] What does a 15 year old talk about in therapy?
[00:34:11] Oh man.
[00:34:13] Uh, I don't, I don't even remember like, you know, probably all kinds of BS as well as probably the truth is slipped in there as well within a lot of, uh,
[00:34:26] Like you're trying to make yourself sound cool to the therapist.
[00:34:30] Maybe.
[00:34:30] I think I wanted to go in and pontificate on all my kind of out there ideas that I had, which were probably an indication of my mental unhealth.
[00:34:42] You know?
[00:34:43] Yeah.
[00:34:43] Did I hear you correctly when he said you went back to school for business?
[00:34:47] Is that right?
[00:34:48] Yeah.
[00:34:49] Yeah.
[00:34:49] I'm getting an MBA, um, right now.
[00:34:51] I'm like halfway through.
[00:34:51] We're talking about music as this, as this thing that can like personally or ethically or any manner of ways go in either direction.
[00:35:01] But man, like business, like you could do good or you can do evil with that.
[00:35:05] That's for sure.
[00:35:07] That's for sure.
[00:35:08] Uh, and I think I picked it because, you know, my dad was in, was in business and he's a great guy.
[00:35:15] Like truly is a person of integrity.
[00:35:19] And so that was the example that inspired me to pursue that.
[00:35:24] Um, and so I think I'm lucky also to be surrounded like at the, I'm at Seattle university and it's very well rounded in terms of, you know, ethical consideration and stakeholder management and less, you know, profit over everything.
[00:35:40] Um, and I think like we need that personally, I think that, you know, we look at capitalism is here.
[00:35:47] It's happening.
[00:35:48] Uh, there's opportunity.
[00:35:50] People are going to take those opportunities.
[00:35:52] And so being, being a person that can, um, you know, take stock of who's affected and, and start a business or run a business in a way that's as sustainable and equitable as it can be.
[00:36:07] I think we need more people like that.
[00:36:09] Um, so I hope to be one of those.
[00:36:11] Do you get a sense of, of what you would like to do with that?
[00:36:16] Um, I had a ton of ideas.
[00:36:18] I mean, I don't have a, like right now I'm, I just got my real estate license.
[00:36:24] So I'm going to do that.
[00:36:25] Um, jumping into that pool.
[00:36:27] That's something that can go real bad real quickly.
[00:36:30] Exactly.
[00:36:31] Right.
[00:36:31] But I think like at the end of the day, even with a thing like that, like, like real estate, if you are helping somebody find, you know, the, the home that they've always wanted for a fair price, helping them through that whole process, which is like one of the most important decisions and scariest decisions.
[00:36:50] And you do that with integrity and honesty.
[00:36:52] I think that's a noble job.
[00:36:54] Uh, if you're sell, if you're trying to sell somebody on a home that they don't need or that's, you know, whatever.
[00:37:00] And that's the same decision in all business.
[00:37:03] But I think to say that's not necessarily my end goal career.
[00:37:07] I mean, it may be depending on how it goes, but I foresee definitely hopefully starting a business, maybe in the music industry, uh, having a studio, uh, nonprofit.
[00:37:16] There's so many options and it's just, we'll see what life brings, I guess.
[00:37:21] Do you find yourself like more and more becoming playing the role of business manager within the band?
[00:37:27] Honestly, no, like to some extent, yes.
[00:37:30] And I, I expected I would, but I think, uh, I still have a difficult time, uh, integrating my business mind and my artistic mind.
[00:37:41] And I'm working on it because I have like a solo record I've been working on.
[00:37:44] And so I'm, uh, I'm planning on, I'm, I'm making, I've made a business plan and I'm figuring out what to do with that.
[00:37:50] But as for naked giants, it's kind of like we're running the way we've always run.
[00:37:53] We have a great manager.
[00:37:55] And so, uh, you know, we all, everything is very egalitarian with us.
[00:38:00] We all make all decisions equally and delegate.
[00:38:04] Um, and so I'm just, we're sticking with that for now, but you know, like we're thinking about merch ideas right now and how to like get rid of some old stock.
[00:38:13] And, uh, in my mind, you know, some, some business things helped me with that a little bit and finding a creative way to, to fulfill issue, to, you know, solve problems.
[00:38:22] So when you talk about the role of that, uh, studying this will play in your solo record or your solo career, you're speaking like really pragmatic in terms of, of the business side of things in terms of promoting yourself and not necessarily the music itself.
[00:38:39] Yeah, definitely.
[00:38:41] I mean, and that's something I've always kind of had a resentment towards.
[00:38:44] So I'm working on that.
[00:38:44] Like, again, the business aspect of arts is really tough and it kind of hurts the soul a little bit.
[00:38:53] And I think most artists feel that like, I don't want to take a video of myself lip syncing to the song that I just made and posted on Instagram.
[00:39:01] I just don't want to do it.
[00:39:02] Uh, so I think having a business education, I hope will help me find like a smart, uh, way to, you know, give the music its best position.
[00:39:14] Potential of success while in the boundaries of what I'm comfortable with.
[00:39:19] Uh, it's not to say, oh, here's the, the best way to make it.
[00:39:23] And then just follow those rules.
[00:39:25] Because I think as an artist, people want you to be true to yourself.
[00:39:29] Like the great artists, my favorite artists, like someone like Neil Young, again, has never really responded to what people wanted to do.
[00:39:37] What spurred on the solo album?
[00:39:39] Uh, all three of us in the band have, have kind of gone off and made solo records.
[00:39:44] Gianni, the bass player always did.
[00:39:46] And I've had a lot of songs for a long time that, um, that didn't quite fit with the band.
[00:39:52] And I kind of was yearning for a bit of full creative control, uh, of a project.
[00:39:59] And so that along with the exploration of like simpler songwriting, trying to write timeless songs, other influences.
[00:40:07] And then, um, some other friends I have who've joined this project with me.
[00:40:12] Um, I've just set off on it and I'm really happy with how it's sounding.
[00:40:18] It's kind of finding a new voice for myself too, both creatively and literally vocally.
[00:40:23] Um, I have a low voice.
[00:40:24] I've often sang hi.
[00:40:26] So this project was also a time for me to explore where my range kind of is best.
[00:40:31] And, uh, which I don't think necessarily fits with the Giants stuff.
[00:40:36] So, yeah.
[00:40:37] It's interesting because you and Gianni have known each other, what, since preschool?
[00:40:40] Is that right?
[00:40:41] That's Henry and I, the drummer.
[00:40:43] Um, but, but Gianni and I, we've all known each other since like 18.
[00:40:47] Yeah.
[00:40:48] Okay.
[00:40:48] So, you know, you've known each other and you've been playing with each other since you
[00:40:51] were 18.
[00:40:51] And at that point it must be in a certain sense.
[00:40:55] I mean, as, as great as that is and, and, you know, as creatively fulfilling as it is to
[00:41:01] find somebody who you mesh with that well, it's probably difficult to uncouple that and
[00:41:08] to find your identity separate from that.
[00:41:12] I mean, even beyond like the band, right?
[00:41:13] I mean, you all were playing with car seat headdress too, which is kind of why.
[00:41:17] You've been a unit for so long, for 10 years now.
[00:41:21] I think that's part of why it necessitated some of this breath from each other, uh, to
[00:41:27] kind of preserve the band.
[00:41:29] Uh, because I think playing with car seat headrest was a great experience in so many ways.
[00:41:34] And in another way, it was a bit of a wake up call for us to like, I guess, again, in mental
[00:41:41] health wise and life balance wise.
[00:41:43] And then another part of that creatively was to say, like, we love naked giants, but,
[00:41:50] um, it's not like to have room for it and really be able to focus on it.
[00:41:55] I think we need these other creative outlets because otherwise when you're putting everything
[00:41:59] into one pan, the pan gets pretty full and a lot of tension arises.
[00:42:03] The flavors sometimes clash.
[00:42:07] Uh, yeah.
[00:42:07] You want it to be that thing that you come back to and you're happy to come back to it.
[00:42:13] Right.
[00:42:13] You want to be excited for the project.
[00:42:15] And I think it'll actually help define the naked giants records, like define the sound of the
[00:42:21] record.
[00:42:22] Cause it's often been kind of a real genre mix on every record of like different rock.
[00:42:27] And I think, um, as we've like had these outlets for our other material, I think we're planning
[00:42:34] on at least focusing on, you know, making certain records more specific.
[00:42:38] So you kind of foresee in the future, you know, regardless solo record, but also business school,
[00:42:45] like you, you see the band continuing to be, to play a role in your life going forward.
[00:42:52] Absolutely.
[00:42:53] I think there's no better chemistry, uh, in, in this certain way than with those two guys.
[00:43:01] And like, we have this deep rapport and friendship.
[00:43:05] And I think like just really a capacity to make some interesting music and whether or not it's,
[00:43:13] you know, the, whether or not it's that or my solo record or another one that's like the most
[00:43:19] emotionally or creatively fulfilling in one way, the band fulfills a role that's really crucial
[00:43:25] for me.
[00:43:26] And I think that people will enjoy like for our, in terms of our live show and just the fun of jamming
[00:43:32] in this band is pretty unmatched.
[00:43:34] Like the chemistry is off the charts.
[00:43:36] And so I think that's worth holding onto and not letting other things mess up.
[00:43:40] We're in the story.
