Episode 697: Denison Witmer

[00:00:12] They would all kind of fall under the Anabaptist movement, which was started in, I believe, in, well, old Switzerland, Germany, Netherlands, and that area, before those countries were really defined. And why they ended up in Pennsylvania, it's hard to say, but I think it's a combination of a few things.

[00:00:38] You know, the farmland here is really, really good. And so I'm sure it had to do with agriculture. And there's also that birds of a feather stick together kind of thing, you know. If one group of people comes and they're very like-minded individuals, you know, tend to find each other.

[00:01:00] You know, even though the Amish church actually broke off the Mennonite church before anyone ever immigrated to the United States. That happened in Europe. You mean they kicked you out? Well, no, they actually separated themselves. Jacob Amund separated himself from the Mennonite church and started the Amish. Yeah. They felt like the Mennonites were becoming too worldly, actually.

[00:01:30] It sounds like though, despite that, that there is still kind of a kinship for these different groups. Yeah, it is funny. I mean, the more you spend time here, you start to realize what kind of infighting is actually happening. Like in Lancaster, we have these, what they call the Martin Mennonites, and then we also have the Weaver Mennonites. And they wear different types of hats, actually.

[00:01:57] And so they have different churches and different rules, and they're, you know, the bishops of their church often create, you know, different sets of rules, like by the different churches. And from what I understand, and I've not really gotten into the nitty gritty, but from what I understand, they don't really get along. They don't really think highly of each other. But I don't know.

[00:02:25] I mean, I grew up Mennonite, but, you know, I was never, it was never very strict. You know, I did go to a Mennonite elementary school, I went to a Mennonite high school, but, you know, we can look at that from most people's perspective as being just a Christian, a Christian upbringing.

[00:02:48] You know, definitely not evangelical, but still not too far from what most people would associate with just Christianity, I think. Is this a good analogy as a Reformed Jew living in New York City that the Amish maybe are a little more like the Hasides? Is that a fair comparison? Yeah, or like a little bit more like the Orthodox.

[00:03:15] Yeah, you know, what's funny is that actually I live across the street from the only Orthodox synagogue in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. My neighbor across the street is, yeah, I mean, it is the synagogue. And so you might laugh at this, but, you know, there is some kind of tourism.

[00:03:44] My wife and I cannot figure this out. It's so bizarre. But there is some tourism here where the Orthodox community in Lancaster has started something called Kosher Vistas. And it's almost like an Airbnb. And people will come here and stay here. And one of the things on their website is, like, come see the Amish way of life.

[00:04:06] And we kind of laugh about it because, you know, the Amish are very Orthodox in some of their rules, you know, in the way that they translate Christianity. And then, you know, the Orthodox synagogue being across the street from us is much the same way. So I don't know. I don't know. It's bizarre. It would be like Amish people traveling to New York, you know, to see Orthodox Jews.

[00:04:35] They have a word for that. What's the word for that? Rumspringa. Oh, rumspringa. Well, yeah, rumspringa is a time in the Amish church before you join, before you become a member of the church, where you kind of have... You see the way the other half lives. You want to hear a funny story about rumspringa? Okay, let's go there.

[00:05:00] So when I lived in Philadelphia, a good friend of mine was a writer for the Philadelphia Weekly newspaper. And she said, you know, you're from Lancaster. I want to do a story about rumspringa. And I said to her, good luck, because you're not going to just come out to Lancaster and walk around bird in hand or intercourse where the Amish people, you know, mostly are. And you're not just going to interview people. They're not going to talk to you.

[00:05:28] And she was like, well, let's just take a chance. Let's just roll the dice and see if we can meet some people. So we get in my car and we drive to Lancaster. And we're driving down the main highway that goes right through Amish country. And I see an Amish guy standing by the road with his thumb up. And he was hitchhiking. So I turned to my friend and I say, here's your chance. The guy clearly needs a ride somewhere. We get him in the car.

[00:05:57] You can ask him whatever you want. You know, she's like, great. That sounds great. So we get him in the car. And I say to him, you know, where are you going? Where do you need to go? And he says, I need to go to the Lancaster County courthouse. And I was like, oh, wow. Why are you going to the courthouse? And he was like, oh, I got a DUI. And I said, wait a minute. In a buggy? And he was like, yep. In a buggy.

[00:06:25] And it turned out that he was in his rumspring phase. And he got completely wasted. Ended up taking his horse and buggy out onto the bypass highway. Where the batteries died. And he stopped. He stopped. The batteries only obviously controlling just the blinking lights for safety at night. And he stopped. And then the next car that came by was a cop. And he was wasted.

[00:06:54] So they gave him a DUI. You know, the other joke about, you know, the Amish and their horse and buggies and the rumspring is that actually the horses are quite intelligent, obviously. And they know their way around. And a lot of people say that, you know, you could go out drinking and then you just get in your buggy. And if you're too wasted to get home, someone will just smack the horse on the butt and it will take off.

[00:07:22] And you'll wake up in front of your house the next morning. It'll just take you home. It's like the original self-driving car. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Anyway, so that's a little bit about my hometown. Although I will say, you know, Lancaster City is a really cute town of about 60,000 people. It's a very old city. It looks kind of like the north end of Boston in downtown.

[00:07:52] It's the original capital. Is that right? I think we were the capital for a day. I think it was just like somebody was passing through and we were the capital for a day. But, you know, we are older than the nation. We have a tobacco shop here called Demuth's Tobacco Shop that's been around since before the United States was a country.

[00:08:16] We also have the oldest continuously operated farmer's market in the United States, which is also older than the country. And it's a really cute, quaint town. Very walkable. And I really love it here. It's centrally located to lots of other cities. I can be in New York in two hours and 30 minutes on the train, you know, so it's a great place to be.

[00:08:43] We touched on this a little bit before, but you did move to Philly at one point. How long were you out there for? I was there for about 25 years. Yeah. So I moved there when I was 19. And in my early 20s, I spent about a year and a half in Seattle with some just other musical community friends that I had met on tour.

[00:09:08] And then right before I bought a house in Philly, I also spent a year in Madison, Wisconsin. Madison's great. I absolutely love Madison. If you can deal with the winter, Madison's great. The winter was a shock to me, for sure. I remember the first time I walked to a cafe down the street from my house. And at the time, I had a pretty big beard. And I had icicles under my nose by the time I got to the end of the block.

[00:09:37] And I thought, what have I done? Why did I move here? But still, it's a great town. I bring this up partially for selfish reasons because I was actually in Queens for about 20 years. And I moved. I'm in the mid-Hudson right now. So I'm about two hours north of the city. I moved over the summer. So it's all very new.

[00:10:03] But is it a fair assessment to say that, you know, in spite of the fact that you did enjoy your time at Seattle and Philly, that you're a little bit more of, you know, that you enjoy being outside of the city? That kind of fits you a little better? It is a fair assessment now. It wasn't that way when I moved here, you know.

[00:10:28] When I moved here, I really felt like I was abandoning my city life, you know, that I loved so much. And it was a real struggle for me. You know, I saw myself as a city person forever. I relate deeply to this, by the way. Oh, you do? Okay. Well, so I made an album in 2020 called American Foursquare. That's the type of house that I purchased in Lancaster.

[00:10:50] And it's about the kind of coming terms with moving home and kind of setting up, you know, a new life, a new phase of life. My wife and I had our second child, you know, and I felt a little bit like I was throwing in the towel, you know.

[00:11:11] But I've had a complete shift, you know, and not in the way where I feel like I've resigned and so I have no other options. Like, I actually am so happy that I live here now. I love our community. I love the size of the city. I love the way it allows us to function with two kids. It's so much easier.

[00:11:35] And to be completely honest, like, I just needed, I didn't realize how much I needed to simplify to take that, you know, when you're in the city, you almost experience decision fatigue. Like, I do. I mean, you know, like, there's so many things. Your senses are very overwhelmed. You're making decisions all day. And I realize I only have so many decisions in me.

[00:12:01] And if I'm, like, if I'm spent by the time I want to be creative or I don't have space to be creative, like, I'll never get to do the things that I really enjoy doing that make me feel like a person. So living in this house in Lancaster, I can walk everywhere I want. But I have also never looked for a parking spot, you know, when I drive anywhere. I've got my own little studio downstairs in my house. I've got a good community of friends here.

[00:12:31] And I'm centrally located to a lot of other cities. So, you know, it costs less to live here. So what I do is I stash away a little money every month in my budget for a hotel in Philly or New York. And I'd say once every quarter, I'll go to a city for a couple nights by myself and just get a hotel, walk around, do the museum thing, do the restaurant thing, see some friends, come back home.

[00:13:00] And it ticks the box because the rest of my life is so much easier. So I'm really happy about it. Yeah, so, you know, that kind of ties into my new album, Anything at All, in the sense that, like, you know, my 2020 album, American Foursquare, was kind of about coming to terms with moving back home and what that meant for me.

[00:13:24] But my new record is really about putting those systems in place and, like, really embracing community and slower pace and finding, you know, what is important to me. You have to have that long, hard look in the mirror and you go, okay, what am I actually made of? You know, now that I've taken all of this, like, exterior stuff, you know, away from me.

[00:13:48] Like, in my case, all of the art and the culture of the city, which I really love, you know, I used to look to that for my creative input. Now that that's stripped away and I'm living a little bit more of a simple existence, you know, I put that in quotes because it's not entirely. Because you're not living in intercourse. Exactly, exactly. And I'm not, and I'm really not being condescending to the town that I live in because I love it. But because I've taken some of that external stuff away, I have to go more inward.

[00:14:16] And I think that that challenged me to really discover what I care about even more because I couldn't rely on external input. I had to go into myself. And that was really, really good for me. And we'll see what the next chapter is. But that's kind of where I'm at right now.

[00:14:40] In a major way that the city was really inspirational for you to write songs because there's, I mean, there's something. Your music feels more rural to me. It feels a little more like pastoral. I know you're also a big Nick Drake fan and I start to think about like Fairport Convention. Yeah, I love Fairport Convention. Musically, you seem to fit there better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:08] I mean, I definitely gravitate toward that 70s singer-songwriter, late 60s folk scene. Yeah, I guess no matter where I live, what still comes out of me creatively is pretty chill acoustic music at the end of the day. So you moved up, you moved there. Did you move there during COVID? No, we moved here in, well, I guess we've been here for 10 years now.

[00:15:38] So 2015. Yeah. Okay. But still really good timing. I mean, the reason, a huge part of the reason why I moved is because I rode out COVID in, you know, in a one bedroom apartment in Queens. Wow. So I assume that that was a pretty decent place to be during all of that. Yeah, we were very fortunate in the sense that my house in South Philly was about a thousand square feet.

[00:16:03] Now, there was three of us at that time, and my youngest was only four years old at that time. But, you know, we had a nine by nine back patio, concrete patio, you know. Now we've got a yard and a deck out back. And you were lucky to have a patio, to be honest. Yeah, we were. We were lucky. You said you're in upstate New York now, is that right? That's a contentious topic. Okay.

[00:16:32] Because I'm in the Hudson Valley, so I'm about two hours north. Yeah. And it's one of those, I'm sure you're an East Coast guy, so you get this. But, you know, if you're living in the city, I'm in upstate New York. If you're anywhere outside of the city, then upstate New York is still a few hours above here. I actually do a lot of work in your area. I don't know exactly where you are, but my other job is I'm a carpenter. And I have a carpentry business. I build cabinetry.

[00:17:02] I build anything anybody needs made. But is that the Mennonite in you? It might be. It might be. Yeah. The Shakers, they're big into furniture, right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It probably is. I mean, I grew up in a way where, you know, I was never a super popular musician, so there was never like tons of extra income floating around. So I learned pretty early on that if I wanted nice things, I had to make them.

[00:17:31] And I'm pretty industrious, and I really like working with my hands. So I kind of fell into it, you know, through fixing up houses in Philly with friends of mine and then realizing like, oh, I like the carpentry side of this. And then so kind of veering into finished carpentry. And then when I got to Lancaster, I just discovered that I could shift completely to being a shop carpenter.

[00:17:59] And I learned how to build anything, really. I apprenticed with an older gentleman who was kind of in the sunset of his carpentry career. And he did historical millwork and cabinetry, and he taught me how to do it all. And so what ends up happening, oddly, is that since I'm also in a music community, I have a lot of friends in the music world, I also get hired to do a lot of studio stuff, too. So I build a lot of furniture for studios.

[00:18:30] And one of my most recent jobs was actually up in Hudson. Yeah, that's where I was for like the last year, working on a house just outside of Hudson. I was doing a bunch of cabinetry for Aaron Desner. He's in the National, and he produces a lot of the Taylor Swift records. And so that was my big job last year. So I spent a ton of time up there.

[00:18:56] And my current job that I'm on, which is going to take me through the next few months, is in the Woodstock area. So I'm up there all the time. Yeah. I'm about 45 minutes south of Woodstock. I'm by Poughkeepsie and New Paltz, if you think that means anything to you. Yeah. I drive right up through all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you're kind of, because I was reading an interview that you did, I think, around the new album. And you were doing carpentry work for Sufjan not too long ago. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:26] That's still an ongoing project. Yeah. I had helped him with some pieces for his studio. And now we're working on another project for a living space that we're working on. It's such a specific niche you've carved out for yourself. Carpenter to the musicians. Yeah. It is pretty weird, right? But I do feel very fortunate in that I don't advertise my work.

[00:19:56] I'm more of a reactive type of person in the sense that if somebody calls and it seems like something I want to do, then I go for it. And so I've been very lucky that I've been able to make it work. We'll see how long my body holds up. You know, it's pretty physical. So at some point, I'll probably have to pivot to something else. But we'll see. Can you put your finger on what it is you like about it? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:23] It is the analytical, creative part of my life. It is analog, tactile existence. You know, I can reach out and I can touch everything that I'm building. And when it's finished, it's a physical thing that I get to put in a space. People interact with that thing. You know, it's not a screen, you know, and it's not ephemeral. It's physical.

[00:20:51] And so I really need that. I need to be creative all the time. I have that itch, you know. But with carpentry, I'm not a designer. I really prefer to work with other designers and have them submit their drawings to me and then I figure out how to make it. So for me, it's just analytical creativity. It's just math and construction.

[00:21:18] And then that balances out with music in a really nice way because music for me is just where I can allow myself to let my mind wander, be emotional, tap into something that feels mystical, you know, and try to build something that, you know, outlives me in some way. You know, the music will be around much longer than I will.

[00:21:49] And that's kind of a beautiful thing. Not because I feel like any need for immortality or thinking that my voice is that important, but just for the sense that if I feel like I have something to say that I want to share with others, it's nice to know that that will exist for as long as people can listen to music. So, but if you're a good carpenter, that will outlive you too. You're right. You're right. Uh, absolutely.

[00:22:17] Although I've been told that most kitchens have about a 20 year lifespan before people disband them. So, um, we'll see. Yeah. But I do try to build things, um, that last. And luckily most of my clients are people that have kind of a long-term vision in mind. Those are the types of, uh, projects that I really enjoy are people who want to build things. That will stand the test of time. Um, so.

[00:22:44] It strikes me like one of the key ways in which it's different from like a purely creative pursuit, like, you know, music or, or, or painting is that, you know, that, that there are wrong ways to do it. Right. I mean, but like you can't write a song wrong, but you can definitely put a cabinet in wrong. Yes, you definitely can. Um, and so you learn by making mistakes, uh, the same way you learn anything.

[00:23:12] Um, and also I think earlier in my carpentry career, I probably second guessed myself a lot more. Like, just not quite understanding. It's, it, it's, it's almost better to keep it as simple as possible. Um, and, and it, things generally hold up a lot better. So there's like simple practices in place for how to build things that, that do, that hold up well.

[00:23:39] Um, you know, the only real, uh, mystery part of carpentry is the user is the end user, you know, whether or not people are really hard on the furniture or whether or not they take care of it. Um, and that's the part that's the trickiest for me now. Uh, otherwise it's, it's pretty straightforward, you know, it's like, well, this is the amount of space we have to put it in. This is the way we want it to look.

[00:24:06] Part of the reason why I bring that up is because in a way, you know, like I, I, I, I was in an apartment for a long time, so I was renting and I moved up here and it's like, okay, I'm not a particularly handy person, but you know, I had to fix my furnace yesterday. So, um, and there is something that is satisfying there being a right and wrong way versus something like music that is purely subjective. Right. Yeah.

[00:24:35] I mean, you're, you're right. At the end of the day, it's, it's a tactile thing. It's almost like doing the dishes, you know, you see this pile of dishes and they're dirty and then now they're clean, you know? And it's like, I did that, you know, I fixed that. And so it's very, it is very simple in that way. Whereas music is, uh, you're right. It's very subjective and you don't know, you don't know how it will be perceived. You can't really think about that.

[00:25:02] You know, you just have to think about, am I doing the best that I can do at this moment? Um, am I getting the point across that I'm trying to get across? And then you have to let it go. And it's up to other people to decide how long it holds up or if it holds up at all. Um, and that's fine. I've made enough records now that I can deal with that. It doesn't shake me too much. It seems like it would be really helpful.

[00:25:32] I'm a, I'm a writer for a living and, you know, it's a very solitary thing. Um, there are aspects of music that, you know, can be pretty solitary. Um, but as far as not necessarily worrying, but, you know, not, not having any concept about how this thing is going to be perceived. It's very useful to get people in there early.

[00:25:57] It sounds like Sufjan is that person for you that, you know, that, that he, that he's there to sort of, to, to let you know, to guide you, to, to let you know if you're on the right track. Yeah. And in the case of this record, for sure, um, you know, I, when, when Sufjan expressed it interest in working with me on this record, I basically just took all the songs that I had

[00:26:23] written that I, that I planned on maybe pursuing it for my next album. And I, I shared them with him. They just like very simple guitar and vocal demos. Um, and I let him choose the songs that were going to be on the record. Um, because I figured, well, if he's going to help me orchestrate this, you know, I'm going to just follow his lead on what inspires him or feels like some kind of palette that he

[00:26:49] could work with, um, which turns out to be anything really, you know, and that's just the way Sufjan works. But I thought we'll just go with the songs that he finds most interesting and that will be the record. Um, and you know, it worked out really well, um, because, uh, he also challenged me sometimes when he felt like some of the lyrics weren't quite adding up, he would, he would say, I don't think you're saying what you think you're saying there, you know, or what, what are you, what are you trying to get across?

[00:27:19] And if I say it to him, he'd be like, well, you didn't quite land that. So I encourage you to just try, you know, this third verse again with, with a different, you know, different start point or a different end point in mind. Um, and that was really helpful to me. And, and the, and the reality is, I mean, I've been making records for 20 years. I've never really had a producer question my lyrics, you know, um, but also I've never

[00:27:46] worked with a producer who I'm as close to as Sufjan. I mean, we've been friends for 20 years. So, you know, he can say things to me that maybe some other people can't because I can hear them just very objectively as if we're just sitting and having coffee. It's not, um, it doesn't feel loaded or surprising or anything. You know, we know each other's personalities well enough. We can be pretty frank with each other. So that was really helpful.

[00:28:13] Um, you know, we set some rules in place when we made the record. Um, one of them was, you know, no social media in the studio. That's a no brainer. That's a creative killer. Um, and the, uh, the other one was, um, uh, to, uh, just try your best, not overthink it, just do your best. Um, uh, another one was, um, uh, no idea is a bad idea. Yeah. Just try whatever you're hearing, give it a try.

[00:28:43] Uh, the other one was don't get attached to outcomes. Um, so try not to think too much about what the outcome is. Just work on the thing and then like what the final product will sound like a product will sound like, yeah. Don't get attached to outcomes. And, um, the other one is finished is better than perfect. Um, and that was really good. Uh, because when you take all those things together, it gives you the freedom to just like work within those constraints, you know, they're not even really constraints.

[00:29:12] It's just a lot of freedom, but it's, you know, it is where people, some people. They're like inspirational posters. Yeah. It was like a dental office. I just sat in a chair. He shined a bright light in my face and told me this is what we're going to do. No, it, um, yeah, it was very helpful though, because I think that you can, you can back yourself into a corner pretty quickly creatively.

[00:29:36] If you think you have, you know, this outcome in mind or, or you're nitpicking too much, um, about what you think is perfect, you know, because we all have our own little things that we get hung up on, um, which are creative killers. And so it's mostly just getting anything that could be a hangup out of the way so that you can just be creative and looking at it as like, you know, this is our time to be this

[00:30:04] like as creative as possible without editing ourselves down or thinking too much. And like knowing that the time to edit is later, you know, and the time to, to be critical is later. Um, so it's really helpful. You're in an interesting position in that, um, your career goes back very far, you know, at least as a, as a, as a songwriter and you have this kind of time capsule of, I guess your, your high school days.

[00:30:32] Um, when you look back on that versus now, do you feel like you've gotten better or worse about overthinking? Um, I think I've come full circle to be honest. Yeah. I mean, I think I, I, I really had to like early on, you know, I never, ever overthought anything. It was just like, put it down on tape, move on.

[00:31:00] And whether or not it was like even great or whatever, I didn't think about it. And then as I became a better guitar player or, you know, worked with different producers who would be like, Hey man, you know, you, you're not really playing with the click that well, like you're a little out of time or this or that, you know, then you start to get in your head a little bit and then you realize, Oh, I have some practicing I need to do. I need to get better.

[00:31:23] Um, or my voice is really, I went through a phase where, um, I could not sing in tune to like, I don't know what it was. I mean, I think I know what it was now, but I, I had like a serious five or six year phase where whenever I would put headphones on and sing into a microphone, I would sing flat, like a couple cents flat. And I didn't want to auto tune myself. And I, I tried all the different tricks, couldn't figure it out.

[00:31:52] You had what they refer to in baseball as the yips. Yeah. Well, okay. You were in your own head. Well, I don't, I, I mean, what I discovered is that I have allergies. I didn't know this, but my head was like stuffed up. And so when I started to take a, um, antihistamine, I could actually hear pitch much better. And luckily I discovered that like over the course of my last two albums.

[00:32:20] And so I don't always religiously take like Zyrtec or an allergy medicine, but when I work on music before I do any vocals, I'm on Zyrtec at least two weeks ahead of time. And I let it build up in my system and my vocals go so much better because my head is clear and I can actually hear myself. Now we got a little off topic there.

[00:32:45] The, the, the, the, the reality is, you know, there was a time in my thirties where I was so self-critical and I saw this happening with my other friends too, like where maybe digital recording was getting easier and, um, you know, maybe our careers were like a little bit of a different level where we knew there was a certain number of records, maybe we'd be selling or touring. And like, so you start to think about like the audience a little bit too much, you know, on your worst days.

[00:33:13] And that's, you know, that, um, that third eye looking back at you, you know, can be very glaring and can get in the way of your creativity. And I had to, um, I had to work through that and just be like, you know what, this never serves, it never serves me any good to, to think about it, you know? And I also feel like, um, imperfections and, you know, uh, personal nuance and all that

[00:33:42] kind of stuff is what I gravitate toward in other musicians. And so why wouldn't I give myself that same freedom to be creative and just be myself and allow myself to make little mistakes and have little personal nuances that are me. Um, so I think I've come around, I've come full circle to that, which is really good. Um, you know, the one, the one big thing about this new album is I'm not hiding behind any reverb. Really? Usually I put reverb on my vocals.

[00:34:10] I mean, that's an aesthetic thing that I love, but Sufjan was like, we're going vocals up front and dry. And I was like, I don't know about that, but I'm glad we did because I can hear, I can hear why he wanted to do that. It's a cool aesthetic choice. Some of these things that you're talking about there, you know, from a distance, very obvious on the face of them, you know, don't be too hard on yourself. But as far as actually acting on them, that's a different thing altogether. How do you, how do you get to that point?

[00:34:41] Um, well, I try to set myself up for success in the sense that, um, I try to remove those, those roadblocks, you know, and I really try to, um, rely on the opinion of those that I trust, you know? So in a situation like this record, um, if I was making it in the isolation of my basement,

[00:35:11] then I might have second guessed some of my guitar playing a lot more or like really overthought it and kind of gotten stuck. I mean, I, that's just kind of the way it can be sometimes just go down a rabbit hole, you know, focusing on the wrong things. Um, but having someone who can be objective that you trust, who says that guitar part sounds great. Let's move on. And then you go, okay, let's move on, you know?

[00:35:38] Um, and so really just relying on others, you know, there, there's this great, there's a great lyric from an old, uh, Lemonheads, uh, song that I love. I'm a big fan of the Lemonheads and it sticks with me. I mean, it's, uh, I forget what song it is, but he says, when you can't trust yourself, babe, trust someone else. I'm like, that's great. That's what I needed here. I need to surround myself with people who I trust because when I bottom out and I lose

[00:36:07] perspective, I know that those people have my back. Um, so yeah. I'm really curious though, you know, not, not that you would put yourself through the torture of like going back and listening to that really early stuff all the time. But, um, I'm curious what your relationship with that music is when you look back on it. I mean, it's a, it's a mixed bag for sure.

[00:36:37] I think that, um, I think that I have made some records that stand the test of time for me personally. And I've made some that don't sometimes maybe it's just one or two songs that, that still hold up to me. And, and a lot of them that don't, um, I try not to get too caught up in it. I mean, I, when I was touring, when I was actively touring and people would request songs,

[00:37:07] um, I always found it interesting what songs people would request. And I always tried to be pretty brushed up on my catalog enough to be able to play songs that people wanted to hear. And I was often surprised by how, you know, if I wrote a song when I was like 22 and then I'm like 36 and standing there playing it, sometimes the meaning would change entirely. I would hear it. I would hear it as someone in a different phase of my life.

[00:37:35] And the lyrics would mean something different to me as a 36 year old than they would to a 20, as a 22 year old, even, even while I was aware of who I was when I wrote the song. And I always loved those moments because that, that kind of gave me some insight into maybe how other people hear my music as well. Because if you have a crowd and there's people there of all different ages, you know, at its best, the song will reach those people where they're at, you know, and, and translate into their lives in that moment.

[00:38:05] Not all songs can do that. I mean, obviously some lyrics are so, um, specifically pointed at a particular feeling or a thing, you know, that that's not, but, um, I always found it really interesting. So I don't, I don't get too caught up in it. I mean, if anything, I have a, a well-recorded documentation of my, um, my youth and my twenties and my thirties and, you know, these different phases of my life.

[00:38:34] It's like visiting a journal in some ways. And there's always going to be things, there's always going to be things that I want to change or things that I feel like I got right. And I, and I say that having made 13 studio albums now and however many singles I've released, no matter how quickly I make something or how slowly I make something or, you know, whatever, I still find that that percentage of what I wish I could change is about the same, you know?

[00:39:04] And so that means, you know, like, that's my, that's my, that's my ratio, right? The golden ratio, yeah. Yeah. And, and, and that's fine. That's fine by me. You mentioned something about working with Sufjan that he said he would tell you that it's not clear what you're trying to get across at a given time or ask you what you're trying to get across, but is it always clear to you what you're trying to get across? Oh man, that's a, that's a really, really good question. No, it's not. It's not always clear to me.

[00:39:33] Um, I, I'm definitely okay with not knowing exactly what I'm trying to say. Sometimes I, I, I kind of maybe lean a little too hard on that, that feeling like that the truth will reveal itself in time, you know, that, that like, I, I'm so comfortable with that and I try to just allow myself to be creative.

[00:39:59] And if the words are flowing and things seem like it's making sense, even if it's a, it's getting away from me a little bit, I try to just allow that. Yeah, exactly. I try to allow that to happen. And then I go back and, and, and tighten things up if, if they need to be. But sometimes I just leave it as it is. And I think, I think that our brains, um, often tie really random things together, things

[00:40:28] that don't seem like they necessarily connect. They do. And when that happens, um, I'm just thankful that I like, you know, maybe had a realization or something because all my songs are really is me just trying to make sense of the world. And, and when it's really clicking, you know, I'm having a personal epiphany, you know, and it's not like, Hey, listen to this guy have an epiphany. Like he's so great.

[00:40:56] You know, I'm not, I, it's not that at all. It can be a small and it could be something that somebody else has already figured out and had that epiphany and sorted out in their life. But it's new to me, you know, and I try to remember that these things like as I'm experiencing them, it's new to me as I'm experiencing it. And it's my, these are my songs. This is my experience. And so I can write about it. Even if somebody else has written about it, it's still, it's still something I can take ownership of and, and write about.

[00:41:24] Um, and having, you know, having realizations is not always a clean cut thing. It can be messy. And so I'm here for it. It's okay. It's fine by me. I ask partially because you, when you refer to your records, do you do a good job of referring to not only where you were at that point in your life, but these sort of themes that, you know, cohered, I assume during the process.

[00:41:54] Um, but getting back to this idea of songs changing meanings as you know, you, you enter different, uh, different parts of your life. Does thematically, is it clear that there's a through line when you're working on a set of songs? Not always. Sometimes it kind of reveals itself, you know, um, as I listen back to the demos and I'll be

[00:42:21] like, Oh wow, I'm really obsessed with the passage of time right now. I didn't realize I was, but like all of these songs are about the passage of time in some way, or, you know, Oh, maybe I'm really hung up on this idea of mortality or, you know, um, I start to see those themes as I listen back to my, my demos.

[00:42:45] Um, and I love when records have a feeling from start to finish, you know, I, I mean, I, I'm not anti releasing singles and I probably have a few more singles coming out later this year that will follow up the album. Um, but I like when albums have a cohesive feeling that you kind of step into and there's something thematic, like running, you know, running through, like a through line happening.

[00:43:17] And sometimes, you know, what ends up happening is I end up writing a lot more while I'm recording as well. Um, and that's the same thing with this record where we were working on one batch of songs and, you know, since we started in 2022 and we finished in 2024, there was some time lapse, you know, to, to, we worked in fits and starts. And in between that, I might write a couple more songs, you know, and a couple of those

[00:43:47] songs ended up being like, I felt like they were strong enough that they belonged on the record. And so we've scrapped something else and start something new that might fill a little gap in the record and maybe just help carry that theme a little further. Recognizing that mortality is something of a through line through a lot of the songs. Is that, is that something that you just work through musically or is that something that's kind of top of mind a lot in life?

[00:44:15] It is, it is top of mind. Um, in the sense that, well, so I'm, I'm 48 now and, you know, I just lost my last grandparent earlier this year. Um, that's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I know. I know. I mean, us Mennonites live forever, man.

[00:44:38] We, we, you know, um, but I have another, uh, another couple of friends passed away in the last few years. Um, and that was really difficult. Um, and I'm kind of squarely in the middle right now. You know, I was, I'm looking at my children who are now nine and 13, you know, and I was

[00:45:02] looking at my grandfather who was 99 when he passed and I'm sitting here like right in the middle of, of that. And I'm thinking, okay. Okay. So if, if fate is, if fate is kind to me, barring sickness, barring anything accidental, like I potentially have a whole extra lifetime ahead of me.

[00:45:29] Like, uh, every moment that I've been on this planet, like I could do that whole thing again. And, um, it really freaked me out. Right. Because I was like, I feel like I've lived a pretty full life. And so then I started to think about, you know, what does that mean? What, what, what, um, what are my aspirations for that next chapter?

[00:45:58] How do I use my time wisely? How do I model the type of person I think is a good, a good person in the world, you know, for my children? You know, these are big questions, you know, they're, they're big middle age questions, I think. Um, and they are at the front of my brain right now. That's why I can't outrun it, you know? And so if I can't outrun it, I might as well embrace it.

[00:46:25] So that's typically how I deal with all of my feelings, you know, you have that acceptance where you're just like, well, this is clearly eating me alive. And so I, you know, pushing it down and not dealing with it isn't going to get me anywhere. So I might as well figure it out.