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[00:00:12] I lived in Mount Vernon, New York for 10 years. And then before that, D.C. It's good that it's difficult to figure out where people live just by reading their biographies online, which at the end of the day is probably, I would say, for the best. Yeah, I identify as D.C. still. Whenever I'm there, I feel like that's the hometown, although it's so different now.
[00:00:36] You both left the area. What, I guess, what brought you to where you're living now? I was in D.C. after college. I moved there because I was really fascinated by D.C. and knew about its music scene. I went into the sort of advocacy nonprofit world for a job.
[00:01:00] But instantly, I met Jenny Toomey within two weeks through a Positive Force concert that they had organized with Fugazi, Shutter to Think, and Jawbox playing. So yeah, just a little show. And I instantly got involved with Positive Force. And then D.C. became where I lived from like 1989 until 97.
[00:01:27] And the reason I waver a bit is that I got married in 1995, but my husband lived in Philly. And so there was like three years of commuting between Philly and D.C. Philly, on a kind of a weekly basis, like four days here, three days there, three days there, four days there. And then by about 1997, 98, when the label, when we decided the label would be done, then I was more permanently in Philly.
[00:01:56] And I've been in Philly since then, in various places, but I'm in the Philly area. So how did you end up in Mount Vernon? Well, I mean, I got a job with the Ford Foundation. And so for a whole bunch of years, I commuted between D.C. and New York. So I grew up in D.C. and I lived in Arlington and D.C. and Chevy Chase. So I spread it pretty nice and evenly around the DMV area.
[00:02:23] But then when I got the Ford job for, I guess, like the first four years, I just lived in different neighborhoods. I lived in, I was in the financial district during the financial meltdown. That was interesting on both sides of it. I lived in Williamsburg. You were here, you were Wall Street. Yeah, yep. I lived like, Wall Street was my stop to get to work. And then I lived in Williamsburg when the bottom fell out.
[00:02:52] So I lived in like fancy condos that no one could sell, but that they had not put even like light bulbs in to them. Because they were going out of business. I lived with a 21-year-old fashion student during that two years. It's like a Grey Gardens situation, it sounds like. It was very strange. And then it was like, it wasn't very Grey Gardens. It didn't have the elegance of a Grey Gardens situation. But had good views of Manhattan.
[00:03:18] And then I lived in like what I always say is like Woody Allen's girlfriend's apartment in an early movie. You know, like a tiny little fourth floor walk up in Midtown. But yeah, so like I don't love living in the city. It's too big for me. I don't, it's not my favorite place. I like more trees and quiet.
[00:03:41] So when I got promoted, we bought a house in Mount Vernon, which is like the bottom of Westchester, the top of the Bronx. And we lived there for 10 years. Moving, was that part of ultimately what kind of spelled the end of the label? I think it was, it was one factor, but there were many. And I'll start it, but Jenny will add in. And so, you know, we ran Simple Machines.
[00:04:09] I wasn't one of the founders, Jenny and Brad Siegel and Derek Denkla, who were friends and sort of part of Positive Force and music stuff, started it in about 1989. And I was around by like that point, but didn't really sort of step in until about 1990. And then we were incredibly busy with the label and with Tsunami eventually for most of the 90s, you know.
[00:04:35] And we were total workaholics trying to be both a very active band and also run a label that included other bands on it. So there was these twin pressures for us to be continuously doing Tsunami things, but also be good at doing the label things for the bands that were on our roster who were friends.
[00:04:59] And it became clear by like 1996 or 7 that it was going to be difficult to do both well. And so we, Jenny and I had conversations about how we could intentionally scale down and end the label. And we had a big party and, you know, a big sort of finale and tons of bands played. And so there was like a graceful end to it all.
[00:05:25] But, you know, on the logistics side, it was just also really taxing for me to commute back and forth. And so there was that as well. And there was like the bigger picture of what was going on in the music economy, the birth of the internets, which was happening right about then. You know, the commercial internet was just beginning. So, yeah. You feel like the writing was on the wall at that point? I don't think we thought of it as the writing on the wall.
[00:05:53] I think it was like, what would happen? What's going to happen? You know, it was unknown to us about what the impact would be. And actually, Jenny and I did a little project about that. Right? That's true. That's true. Yeah. After we closed the label down, Kristen went off and got a master's degree. And I went and started working. I mean, I had a bunch of crappy jobs. And then I got a job writing the ads at the Washington Post and doing some music reviews.
[00:06:24] And I had a fast internet connection on my desk, which was an unusual thing at that time. And I also had a job that I figured out pretty quickly. And I could get, you know, eight hours worth of work done in like two hours. So I had a lot of time to just look at the internet and think about it. We had a catalog, all these startups who wanted to demonstrate what the music tech landscape could be. We're looking for non-major label catalogs. It's a license.
[00:06:54] And so Kristen and I, several years later, came back together again and tried to recreate the work we did with our guide to putting out records, but in the internet. And we started something called The Machine, which was a website online that sort of tried to rate all of the different businesses that were coming at us from every direction and try to learn as much as we could and share it.
[00:07:18] Because we knew that the overwhelming majority of our peers who still ran record labels, you know, had no idea what to do in the space. And we thought, like, if we learn this for ourselves, we might as well share it with everybody else. You were kind of aggregating the different tools that they could potentially utilize in order to actually get online and distribute their stuff? No, because that didn't even exist really yet. Like, there were a bunch of companies that were offering to do that kind of stuff for you, but, like, there wasn't anything normalized.
[00:07:48] You know, like, some of them would let you encrypt. Some of them made it be open. Some of them wanted a 10-year contract. Some of them had a handshake deal. Like, so there were all these different things that were starting up, and we were trying to figure out how do you get a consumer reports-like sheet with red checks or green checks that would make it easier for you to say, okay, I understand the logic of why this would be better than that.
[00:08:16] Because there really wasn't a system. And that just proved itself 100% true at the moment where the bubble burst and most of those companies went out of business. So, it was really, like, very, very early days. And we also felt that by doing it publicly, we could influence how things were designed. We could say, like, oh, well, this is a bad deal for artists, so nobody should sign this type of a deal.
[00:08:44] And that would put pressure on folks who were just doing things in the dark to make things that were more advantageous for artists. You know, Kristen, it strikes me that you probably, not probably, that you've got some real insight into specifically the way that landscape has changed. And, you know, obviously right now there's one giant player who's kind of controlling everything.
[00:09:14] Certainly the pandemic has had impacts on the music industry largely bad. But are you seeing any, like, positives or reasons to be hopeful at this point? I mean, this isn't something that is related to the last two years of the music economy.
[00:09:40] But something that is definitely different from when we were operating in the music economy in the 90s sort of pre-internet. Like, just thinking back, like, gosh, when we were selling records to distributors and stores, you know, you would have friends that you would call. How many do you want? Ship them out. And a lot of, you know, sort of physical transfer. And then you, like, would ensure that, you know, you'd sort of hope you would get paid for those things.
[00:10:05] And all those, there was, like, never a guarantee you were going to get paid. Whereas with, like, the current music economy, at least, if you know it's micropayments, the transactions are pretty much guaranteed, which is a very different thing. And that's such a small thing because, really, yay, you're happy that the transfers come every month. But the micropayment is the problem.
[00:10:27] So, and the payment structure, especially embodied through Spotify, where it's, like, all the subscription money is pooled into a giant pool. And then it's, you know, shared out to the most popular, the stuff that gets streamed the most. As opposed to, like, if I just listen to Who's Gurdue, then my $9.99 is going to go to Who's Gurdue. Like, that's not how it works.
[00:10:52] And that's been proposed as a better solution would be fairer to artists that are not at the top of the heap, right? Because then they can get compensated if people really were superfans. But that's not how Spotify operates. And it's not really what the streaming payment structure looks like across the board. That was kind of a big ask on my part to get some positive. It's okay.
[00:11:20] I think I just jumped in and I was like, and then there's this. And so, yeah. Yeah, it's such, it's funny. We would do, every year when we ran Future Music Coalition, we would do a several-day conference. And brilliant people would wrestle about what would be better and what would be worse. And that was quite a while ago. Some of the most brilliant minds of that period, like Peter Jenner and Sandy Perlman, are no longer with us.
[00:11:49] And I often wonder what they would think about this moment because it didn't have to be this way. I mean, you know, it just was allowed to become this way. And there are good things. Like we could say, like some of the music that we found for our record, I had to find in the internet environment.
[00:12:17] Like things, like, you know, some of the music that I'm thinking about putting out in the future. Like if there are any geek fans out there, we're looking for a clean copy of one of the geek tapes, you know. So the idea that people can put music up and be fans of it is wonderful. It's easier to record and less expensive to record. But, and that is great. And you can theoretically find each other on the internet, although there's a lot of competition.
[00:12:48] But, so all of that stuff, you know, is, you can't say that's bad. And also people still like physical product, at least for a little while. And some people are still going to shows. So there are some wonderful things that still happen. And also there was never a perfect moment where musicians were always paid well. I mean, we spent a lot of time at Future Music trying to raise up the stories of artists who had been exploited by the major labels and by, you know, their lawyers and partners, etc.
[00:13:17] So putting all that aside, I think the one thing that just upsets me the most is the fact that artistic labor has been allowed to become completely devalued in a way that, like, everybody just sort of elbows each other like, oh yeah, well, of course. I mean, it's art. Like, how important could that be?
[00:13:37] And while they sat around and let that happen, you know, just wait for it because low-level coding jobs, low-level legal jobs, low-level accounting jobs, all of these jobs are going to go away in, you know, in pursuit of some sort of efficiency. And, you know, we'll have a society that's howled out of labor. And I just, I feel like that's going to be a terrible place to live.
[00:14:04] Chris and I were talking about this a little bit before, but my job job is I write about robots for TechCrunch. And, you know, part of my job is to, you know, write about these interesting technologies, but also with the understanding that, like, I don't know, they're just, and maybe one of you or both of you have a slightly more optimistic take on this.
[00:14:31] But it's hard to look at the landscape and everything that's happening right now. And I'm not just talking about music and feel like there's a good outcome with all of this automation. Yeah. I mean, who knows? I think it would be, there was some comment, it was on a podcast, I don't even remember which one.
[00:14:55] You know, you kind of wish the robots would do the dishes and fold the laundry so you can do the art, right? Like vice versa, where Claude or whoever, like whatever LLM is generating the art or the novel, and you're unloading the dishwasher. Sure. So. It was a tweet. I remember that tweet. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, I wish that AI could fold my laundry, to which I said, like, that's, that's what theoretically the point of robots, right? Yeah.
[00:15:26] But needless to say, you know, there's this sort of, this version of the future where we all have a lot of leisure time and we can read the books and write the books and do the music. I mean, I'm hoping that's coming up, that I'm hoping that we can have menial tasks done by other, other robots or whatever.
[00:15:48] But, you know, getting there, I think is going to be challenging because there are so many things that we will, humans that will cast aside in this, in the sake of efficiency. So. And granted, when I have these conversations with people, I'm largely talking to the people who make the AI and the people who make the robots and invest in them. So obviously they've got a vested interest in telling me that, like, that things are going to be okay moving ahead.
[00:16:12] But I think that, to me, it seems like the really optimistic outlook on things is not taking into account the late stage of capitalism that we're currently in. And, you know, that making sure that everybody's life is slightly better isn't really a major driving force for too many people. Well, it's not everybody's life, right? It's not everybody's life that's getting better. It's people who have, can avail themselves. I mean, everybody's losing their jobs.
[00:16:41] Their lives are getting worse. All the people that the technology is designed for that they haven't participated in helping to design what it's going to do, their lives are getting worse. And also, like, the way that we're all being drifted from at all times. Like, you know, you can't open your email without someone trying. Oftentimes companies that you're actually working with trying to steal a little extra money from you or steal a little time from you.
[00:17:09] And it's all been permitted, which makes us all pretty cynical about our power to change things in the world. And I think we see how that shows up, comes out sideways sometimes, that feeling of cynicism. But, yeah. And I think the other thing, going back to the art discussion, is the idea that the computer can make the art for you has so little to do with what art is about. Like, the process is art.
[00:17:39] The, you know, the taking something in your brain or in your, you know, inside of you and finding a way to translate it into something outside of you. That whole process is the purpose of art.
[00:17:52] And reading somebody else's art so they can take you on a journey or seeing other people's art so that they can take you on a journey is this incredible human gift that, like, the idea that we hand it over and it's more, I don't know, that it's, you know, more perfect or less time-consuming, you know, is really problematic.
[00:18:15] And I'd say a lot of the folks that build these technologies are doing them for commercial purposes within a commercial incentive period, you know, with these kinds of, like, lower the costs, speed the efficiency incentives. And they're doing it without any humanities background, you know, so they're just solving a technical problem without thinking about the second order or fifth order or 20th order effects of what they are building.
[00:18:44] So, I mean, the reason that it feels like somehow, you know, when I get into these technologies, they're, like, two sizes too small for me or sometimes 10 sizes too small for me, it's because they weren't built for me. They were built to solve a technical problem in a commercial environment, you know, without any rules and without any enforcement and little diversity.
[00:19:09] Let me know if I'm, like, mischaracterizing this, but I get the impression, you know, reading up about the beginnings of the band that there weren't a lot of expectations early on. That it was really just sort of a fun project, maybe, that the two of you were doing. And to me, it strikes me that, like, maybe that's a big part of the reason why it worked, because you didn't have those and you were just making art for the sake of making art.
[00:19:39] I would say, I mean, Jenny, yes. There was, like, Jenny had been in some bands prior to Tsunami and I had sort of been in bands, but not really. And, you know, it was super fun to be in a band. To your point about making art, like, I'm still in a band in Philly that I've been in for, like, 25 years. And it's not Tsunami, a different band, but it's, like, just so fun to get together on Friday. Plug the band, Kristen. Say the band's name.
[00:20:08] Oh, it's called Ken. K-E-N. So, Ken's been around for, like, since, like, 1994 or something. And it's just fun to get together and write songs and, you know, goof around. Because, like, as adults, like, five people together in a room, what else, how, what other opportunities do you have to make something out of nothing, you know? So that's really fun, you know? We're making something out of nothing. And Tsunami was making fun, having fun things at the beginning, especially.
[00:20:38] I think Jenny's version of this description is really, really great. Great. So maybe, Jenny, you can talk about it. I don't know. I think you said it right. I mean, what, what, I hope, you know, you said, like, maybe because we didn't, say the question for me again so I answer it correctly. Whether it was sort of a lack of expectations that ultimately was a part of the band's early success.
[00:21:08] I think so in some ways, yeah. Like, absolutely. Absolutely. But, I mean, we did have some expectations, right? We had just, I had been in a band called Geek. We had done our first tour of, like, I don't know, a dozen cities. I don't remember how many cities we played in. It was Super Chunk's first tour. It was Seaweed's first tour. Everybody was green. We booked it with postcards because it was pre-internet.
[00:21:32] And so there were some stakes in building Tsunami because part of that stakes was, like, we wanted to get in a band as quickly as possible to get back out on the road because it was so much fun to be out there doing that. But I also feel like the common feeling in the punk rock scene was, like, you were just pulling your expression together and getting it out, right?
[00:22:01] It wasn't, maybe there were some people who were like, you know, and then we'll get a manager and then we'll, you know. So, but very few. I mean, not where, not in our scene at all. It became more like that a little bit later after Nirvana. But in the early days, no, not at all. You know, there wasn't even the ability to imagine that. Like, so few bands who we associated with the scene. I mean, the closest ones, I think, were, like, 10 years older than us and were, like, R.E.M.
[00:22:29] And, you know, I guess Sonic Youth would have been the closest one. And they were so much the exception to the rule of this kind of stuff. You didn't even ever think you were on that track. So, in some ways, I think it was low stakes, but it was also super high stakes because, like, that great Destroyer song that I always like to quote, he has that great line that says, Formative years wasted in love with our peers, we tasted life with the stars.
[00:22:59] And it's, like, the only people you cared about were the people who were in the bands that you loved that were in your scene anyway. So, in some ways, the stakes were pretty high, but the community was supportive and forgiving. You put it really well, and I haven't, I don't think I've heard it quite described in that way, but it sounds like you're saying that the stakes, the primary stakes were the ability to just keep doing what you were doing.
[00:23:27] To do it to the best of our abilities. Like, to, like, do it better every time. To figure out how to take that feeling we had and make it into sound. You know? To make it loose so we could play around with it when we were on tour. It was really fun. That's another great thing about the internet is, you know, we forgot how to play a lot of these songs because we haven't been an active band for years.
[00:23:55] And so, some of the ways we figured out, I mean, it's all muscle memory, but you have to figure out where to put your hands on the guitar first for the muscle memory to work. And so, finding these videos of ourselves playing and just seeing us jumping all over the stage and so fluid and, like, getting to a place where you could feel free in what you were doing. And, like, you really felt like you were getting over this feeling that you were trying to share.
[00:24:23] Like, all of that's just so joyful. Which goes back to this other thing about Ken, I think, which is I really think it's sad that, you know, a lot of this art stuff has been relegated to the professionals. You know, we came up probably the last generation that had a lot of arts in our public schools, like, as part of what we were expected to do as we were growing up.
[00:24:46] And it's really sad because, like, it is not just, it's just an incredible soothing of your soul type of set of behaviors. And it's just not accessible to a lot of people because they all feel like they need to be perfect at stuff, which is not the point ever.
[00:25:06] I coincidentally happened to have somebody, a few days ago, spoke to somebody on the show who came up through the DC scene, but, you know, a little bit after you. But close enough that he was, you know, exposed to a lot of the same people.
[00:25:25] And the sense I've always gotten one of the main things that seems to make that specific DC scene and, like, the Discord scene so special is the accessibility that you have to these people that you, like, look up to and are inspiring you to do what you do. And it seems, I'm sure there was some competition, but everybody seemed to be pretty supportive of everyone else.
[00:25:54] There were cliques, like any scene. And, you know, people who disliked each other the way there is in any group of humans. But, yeah, the norms were a lot more enabling and supportive. And those kinds of behaviors were validated more than the Dickey kinds. Like, I always remember there was a guy who started a club in DC, and he was kind of an asshole.
[00:26:21] And he pushed one of the punk, like, the punk was acting like an obnoxious guy, and he pushed him off of this platform. And, like, basically none of the punks would ever go there again. It was like, if you're too much of a Dicke, you can't be supported. And, you know, by that, you know, I'm sure I've been a Dicke at times. You know, Kristen has never been a Dicke. But, you know, like, you know, for the most part, people supported each other. And that was more of the norm.
[00:26:47] Like, one of my first memories of going to a punk rock show at, I think it was like at West Radio Hall or, I can't even remember where it was, but there was some punk rock who was breaking bottles. And I think it was either Alec Mackay or Ian. It was one of them who just walked around and said, like, what the fuck are you doing? You know? Do you like to go to shows? Because you're not going to be able to go to shows if you're breaking bottles outside this church or outside of this, like, community center. So, like, clean up this fucking mess.
[00:27:17] You know? It was just, it had more logic to it. And obviously a lot has been said about this, but how Nirvana specifically coming along really kind of changed the math. Did that, how much did that moment have a marked impact on the band and you and the label? I remember, Jenny, remember you got an advanced copy of it, of the record. And you, I remember you saying, like, this is going to be huge.
[00:27:46] Like, I think there was a sense that it was going to be an enormous record. I don't think we thought it would actually change the music industry at that point, but it did. I mean, I don't think on a sort of a day-to-day basis it really changed Tsunami. Because we were kind of working inside a much smaller version of, like, the indie label kind of ecosystem,
[00:28:13] which had its own functioning pieces, you know, distribution and, you know, people writing fanzines, things like that. And that was a different version of the music industry. And we had some touch points with Nirvana and bands at that level. But we weren't really aspiring to that version of the music industry ourselves. So we were more, like, observing it as opposed to being actively courting it.
[00:28:44] Yeah, I think the ways it changed things for us is because, I mean, well, A, because suddenly when you had a parallel economy and it wasn't really touching, you know, like, you had this major label economy, you had this, you know, independent economy, you weren't competing with the level of resources in the major label economy.
[00:29:07] And there were all of these sort of nodes in the independent system that would support you. So there was a certain size of venue, and there was a college radio stations that played alternative music, and there was certain distributors, and, you know, you could, you were competing with, like, organizations that didn't have enormous resources. And so there was space for everyone in this ecosystem.
[00:29:36] Some did better, some did worse, but, you know, you weren't competing with, like, artificially resourced dollars. And, you know, and the majors started using all of those nodes as means of grooming their acquired artists for what they thought would be the next trampoline into Nirvana Dome,
[00:30:02] which didn't really happen to many artists at that time. But, yeah, so suddenly it became more expensive to put out records because, like, suddenly people were paying for shelf space, and people were paying for promotion teams to make sure that the college radio station would listen to the record and, you know, all of this stuff. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with promotion, you know, like we're talking to you on a podcast right now.
[00:30:31] But it just, it made a lot more tasks and a lot more expense associated to labels that had really, really thin margins. So that's one thing that changed. The second thing that changed, I think, was just that kind of, that sense of what success was changed.
[00:30:56] And some people might say that's a really good thing, you know, like these little bands that can do are now imagining a much bigger trajectory for themselves. And, you know, imagination is a great and wonderful thing.
[00:31:12] But I think in most cases, it meant that they were really focused on these kinds of external validations and supports and less focused on the internal ones. And also, it meant that people who were in community became competitors, you know, jealous of one another. Or there can only be so many of these.
[00:31:40] And if they get this deal, then I don't get this deal. So I think it just changed the water we were swimming in a little bit. And it made the water taste a little disgusting. How do you maintain making art for the sake of art, you know, as you're getting older and as you have like other like life issues, obviously, like intervene?
[00:32:03] You know, Kristen, you alluded to the fact that you've had this band for 25 years and, you know, maybe it doesn't. And there aren't, you know, large abstract ambitions there. Day to day, though, what do you do in terms of like making sure that you can keep making art and that it's enjoyable? Hmm.
[00:32:31] Well, I think Jenny's she can talk about the fact that she's been put out lots of records post tsunami, but. The band can is one version of it. The tsunami as a sort of tsunami being regenerated actually gives us a ton of opportunities to not only learn the songs, play the shows and stuff like that, but also, oh, what kind of what kind of merch will we do?
[00:32:58] And we've always kind of leaned into that as something that we really care about and do some fun stuff with. And there's all sorts of things we could make. And we definitely try and. Not just outsource that, like, let's let's do something together. What could we hand stamp? What could we do that sort of tactile? What could we, you know, stamp a million times, whatever.
[00:33:21] So all these things, tsunami is just a new it's it's back into this opportunity that we have to like have tsunami be a vehicle for other cool arty kind of things. Yeah. And I guess for me, I haven't done a great job. I did a bunch of records for about, I don't know, 10 years after tsunami or maybe even less. And then for the past 16 years, I've just been working really, really hard.
[00:33:47] But I mean, I think that's something also that's very true of Kristen and I, which is like it was never just about music for us. Music was a big piece of our lives, but we also have always been, you know, activists and focused on our community. And so I think with most people's lives, like it's interesting to me because Kristen has had children. I haven't. But there's this moment now where kind of the kids are at college age. The kids are beginning to go off.
[00:34:17] And you see, like, that's part of, I think, the reason why you see all of these 90s bands coming back, because they've, you know, fulfilled their familial responsibilities and they're ready to get back and focus a little bit more on themselves. So this kind of circles around to the idea of not necessarily having expectations. But was there any expectation or was there in the back of your mind?
[00:34:45] Were you hoping that at one point that the band would get back together and that you would be able to do this again? Or is this just kind of blindside you? Oh, I think not blindsided because we have been friends constant, like throughout this entire time. Jenny and I have very similar career trajectories and actually overlap a lot through the work we do in philanthropy and advocacy.
[00:35:09] But every year for the past, what, 10 years, Jenny, we get all the Tsunami band members together. You know, it's usually the first weekend in December where we've gotten together actually in Rhinebeck, New York, to go to Sinterklaas. And we would make a weekend of it and make masks together, sing songs, make meals. And all the bandmates get back together. So we are oftentimes, we're in touch with each other. We're still friends.
[00:35:38] And so it has not been like a 25-year gap. It's been just, you know, refreshing the ideas and getting everybody back together. So I'm really impressed because, you know, two of the most trying things that you can do for a relationship or a friendship are being in a band with somebody and tour around the country or run a business with them. And the two of you have like managed to, it seems like you still like each other. We do.
[00:36:08] How have you been able to maintain that? I mean, what has sort of kept you united for all these years? Well, it's not that hard to be good friends with someone as awesome as Kristen. So I would just say, and she's very patient with me. So there's some of that.
[00:36:32] I just, you know, there was never a lot of drama in tsunami, you know. There were moments where we got on each other's nerves.
[00:36:45] You can't be in a van with someone for that amount of time with that little sleep or, you know, eating toast, chi, you know, peanut butter and cheese cracker sandwiches for your meals for several days without it coming out sideways sometimes. But no, I mean, I think, you know, I love the tsunami people.
[00:37:10] Like the first time we all got back together again for these kind of weekends that we usually have in the winter. Like I remember going to sleep and just feeling like the feeling of my family is around me. Just feeling this incredible joy of having all of those humans in bedrooms sleeping in the house around me.
[00:37:39] And, you know, we saw such incredible things together and we made beautiful art together. So, yeah, so I don't know why it's so hard for other people to do that. You know, I think I can count the fights I've had with Kristen on a finger or two, you know. Yeah.
[00:38:01] And I think just to sort of close this off, it's like the I mean, I think we both have big aspirations and know we can count on each other. And so it's always like I don't I don't want to let Jenny down. Right. It's like we're very simpatico about goals and we're oftentimes egging each other on. So making sure that we're meeting each other's like try like, yes, let's do it. I'll do this part. You do that part.
[00:38:27] So there's always been that collaboration, if you will. That's really, I think, lasted this long. And again, you know, never not making music for the accolades, but at the same time, there must be something, you know, edifying in the fact that like that there is still interest after after all these years that, you know, and that that those that those demos were out there and that you are in a place where you can go out and and tour.
[00:38:57] And not only I was thinking about this before when, you know, you were talking about the fact that there is still some physical media, but it's like, let's not just put out some physical media, but like, let's lean into this as much as humanly possible and make like the biggest box set that we possibly can. That's very simple machines like that is. That's definitely how we rolled back when we were doing it with Xerox machines and didn't have any money.
[00:39:25] And, you know, whatever. Pinking shears and locked wallpaper or whatever we could get our hands on. So, you know, doing it with Numero and having them have such a, like a really kind of beautiful aesthetic for how they put out their records.
[00:39:47] Um, and being able to, you know, step into the stream of all of what they've built and having someone else put out the records. It's been, you know, it's like, you know, pinch me. It's pretty wonderful. But to your thing about everyone caring, we'll see. We'll see. You know, we'll see. We'll see if people come to those shows. I hope so.
[00:40:13] We want to sell them out and play our hearts out. So, come on down.