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[00:00:01] The device, I should say, that we used to shoot this was something similar to the Interatron
[00:00:17] that Errol Morris uses.
[00:00:19] So people were able to look directly into my...
[00:00:22] I think it's called a sight line.
[00:00:24] I believe that's what the device is called.
[00:00:25] Maybe I'm wrong.
[00:00:26] But what happens is that my eyes would appear over the lens of the camera.
[00:00:32] And it's weird too because it looks like your eyes are sort of shifted over from
[00:00:35] your face, right?
[00:00:37] This one slice of your face is like to the left or to the right.
[00:00:40] And so people, they feel like they're making eye contact with you.
[00:00:43] And so it's a much more intimate connection.
[00:00:44] But yeah, I know I definitely do.
[00:00:46] Is that a widely available technology?
[00:00:49] I've not actually seen that in practice a lot.
[00:00:51] Yeah, it's...
[00:00:53] I don't think a lot of people know about it.
[00:00:54] But yes, it is a device that you can buy for, I think, $1,000.
[00:00:58] That's actually not bad.
[00:00:59] Oh no, it's fantastic.
[00:01:01] It's extremely easy to use.
[00:01:03] You unfold it from the case.
[00:01:04] You put it on your tripod.
[00:01:05] You put the camera on top of that.
[00:01:07] You are good to go.
[00:01:09] It uses mirrors.
[00:01:10] Right up until March 2020, I think I probably did my last interview in March 2020 in person.
[00:01:19] And then obviously we were forced to do all these virtually.
[00:01:23] I used to refuse to do things over Zoom because it was so important for me to sit
[00:01:28] down and be in front of somebody.
[00:01:31] Obviously, given my resources and everything else, it's a lot easier to do it this way.
[00:01:37] But it wasn't...
[00:01:40] And I think a lot of this is because we were forced to do this throughout the pandemic.
[00:01:43] But it wasn't as difficult of a shift as I thought it might have been initially.
[00:01:51] Yeah, I find it seems like a perfectly natural thing to do and did seem that way
[00:01:56] from the beginning.
[00:01:58] But I appreciate what you're saying also.
[00:02:00] There's a level of like...
[00:02:02] You have a certain intimacy that you don't have in person in a strange way because
[00:02:05] we're both looking at each other through this device and it's mediated and we have
[00:02:08] headphones on.
[00:02:09] So we are really concentrating on what we're saying.
[00:02:13] To actually sort of travel around, you did this in three cities and to go meet
[00:02:17] people.
[00:02:18] You must have the sense that there's something that you can perhaps get out of somebody
[00:02:23] conversationally that you wouldn't be able to otherwise.
[00:02:29] Getting from them in person?
[00:02:31] In person.
[00:02:32] Oh yeah, of course.
[00:02:34] Especially with the cult stuff.
[00:02:35] You have to...
[00:02:36] I mean, I'm asking people to express on camera some, for the most part, probably
[00:02:43] privately held belief.
[00:02:46] Something that they're not necessarily talking about with their co-workers or their neighbors
[00:02:49] or even many of their friends really.
[00:02:51] And so that level of trust has to be established and I think that that's easier
[00:02:56] to do in person than when you sort of crash land into a Zoom call.
[00:03:01] I imagine that every person that you spoke to for this project is putting that information
[00:03:05] out there in some way, right?
[00:03:06] And they have some sort of, whether it's internet presence or they're writing books.
[00:03:11] What is that disconnect where somebody feels like, in some sense, they can be sort
[00:03:15] of very public about this information and probably reach more people than you would
[00:03:20] day to day but that you can't really have that kind of conversation with the person
[00:03:25] next door?
[00:03:26] Well, I think these people have the courage of their convictions.
[00:03:31] I think it doesn't feel as controversial to them as it might seem to other people.
[00:03:36] But it's actually...
[00:03:38] You'd be surprised at how many people turn me down because they've written their books
[00:03:43] or under a pseudonym or they do their podcasts and it's audio only and they do
[00:03:47] it under a different name because they have a corporate job or a government job
[00:03:51] that they don't want to risk.
[00:03:52] That was a common response to, hey, would you like to be interviewed for this?
[00:03:59] A lot of people did turn it down.
[00:04:00] It's less about or I don't...
[00:04:02] Maybe this is also the case, but it sounds like it's perhaps less about the stigma
[00:04:06] of day to day life than it is the very pragmatic decision of perhaps being
[00:04:12] unemployable for some people.
[00:04:14] Precisely.
[00:04:17] This is such a big...
[00:04:18] This is something that you've been doing for decades and this is a big part
[00:04:22] of your life and I assume that it plays a role in probably a lot of the friendships
[00:04:26] that you have and a lot of the interactions that you have, but that people generally
[00:04:29] tend to keep these sorts of things siloed in their own lives?
[00:04:35] For sure.
[00:04:36] For sure.
[00:04:37] And honestly, to what you just said, not all of my friends are occult-nicks
[00:04:44] by any stretch of the imagination.
[00:04:45] I have a lot of people that I've never discussed any of this with.
[00:04:48] My wife and I don't talk about it.
[00:04:50] She knows how I see the world, but she's far more scientific, rational,
[00:04:55] hard-headed sort of thinker than I am.
[00:04:57] But like I say, we don't discuss it, but she certainly understands how I view things.
[00:05:03] Was that a source of conflict early on?
[00:05:05] Not at all.
[00:05:06] Oh, not at all.
[00:05:07] She knew coming in the door who I was.
[00:05:09] She knew she was getting herself into, so to speak.
[00:05:12] She did.
[00:05:13] She did it anyways.
[00:05:14] I understand this to a certain extent.
[00:05:15] I mean, I would say that I'm a pretty skeptical person about lots of different
[00:05:20] things.
[00:05:21] I mean, a lot of people who are scientifically minded don't necessarily afford themselves
[00:05:28] that or I suppose won't necessarily enter that world with an open mind.
[00:05:37] Yeah, that's true.
[00:05:41] I would say that the majority, the vast majority in fact, of the people that
[00:05:46] did have a fairly rational, not fairly rational, but I would say an extremely rational.
[00:05:52] They don't come off as kooks in any way.
[00:05:54] And I think that even someone who is extremely rationally minded would not look at these
[00:05:59] people and say, oh, you know, they seem, they believe anything or, you know, they
[00:06:05] seem kooky or something.
[00:06:06] You wouldn't think that about these people at all.
[00:06:09] You would think that they seem reasonable and you might want to find out more
[00:06:12] about why they believe that, what they believe.
[00:06:15] How do you keep an open mind for that side of things?
[00:06:18] Well, I mean, hmm.
[00:06:22] Okay.
[00:06:24] I've tried to hone this message over the course of the past few weeks and I've been
[00:06:28] doing a lot of podcasts and this is where I've gotten to it with, right?
[00:06:34] The way that I look at magic is a very, I think scientific in a sense, but at the
[00:06:40] very least it's secular for the most part.
[00:06:43] And I'll get to the exception to that.
[00:06:45] And that is that if you look at something like Napoleon Hill's books, like Think and
[00:06:50] Grow Rich or indeed a lot of these sort of self-help books that go back to the
[00:06:54] night.
[00:06:55] Business.
[00:06:56] Yeah, that's what I was getting to.
[00:06:57] But I was going to say like new thought and how new thought then becomes these
[00:07:01] business books.
[00:07:02] There's almost no, you know, certain business books are basically grimoires that
[00:07:09] have been sort of updated for the 20th, 20th and 21st centuries.
[00:07:12] I mean, there's, I mean, a lot of these books are almost they're the same thing.
[00:07:18] They're talking about the same, literally the same techniques, which in some
[00:07:21] cases in magic and also in these business self-help books is a sort of a
[00:07:25] self-help gnosis, a self-hypnosis, right?
[00:07:30] I like self-help gnosis.
[00:07:31] I don't know if you just call that, but that actually is quite accurate.
[00:07:36] It works, doesn't it?
[00:07:37] Yeah, it works.
[00:07:38] But self-hypnosis is a big part of magic.
[00:07:40] It's trying to psych yourself up for something, make something happen that you
[00:07:43] would like to see happen.
[00:07:45] Visualization.
[00:07:46] Well, I wasn't even going to take it that far.
[00:07:50] I mean, I was, yeah, that's one way that you could do it.
[00:07:52] But I was saying that you just have to have a clear cut desire and know
[00:07:55] what you want and then understand how to get that.
[00:07:58] That's not necessarily something that, that's magic, but it's also a lot
[00:08:03] of other things too.
[00:08:04] It depends on how you look at it and the way that you're orienting
[00:08:07] yourself towards the world that you live in.
[00:08:10] I see magic as being a metaphor for creativity.
[00:08:13] And so if you look at any activity that you are doing as a kind of a spell or
[00:08:18] a spell casting or something that you are doing because you would like to
[00:08:21] create an influence in the world, even if it's just to make something
[00:08:24] better for yourself or to make money or whatever it is.
[00:08:26] But if you start to think of things in that way, your creativity
[00:08:29] is greatly enhanced.
[00:08:30] Manifestation, is that maybe a good way of putting it?
[00:08:34] Well, see, that's the thing is you're taking it more into the new
[00:08:36] age sort of thought that I do personally.
[00:08:39] Okay.
[00:08:40] But, but, but so all of that, right?
[00:08:42] So all of that, so that's that's push that to one side.
[00:08:45] The other side of the way that I think about this stuff is that there
[00:08:50] is you, when you start doing magic and when you start to become open
[00:08:54] to the idea of it, you, um, and if you go far enough into it, shall
[00:09:01] we say, you start to make contact with something or someone or some
[00:09:06] kind of entity or something that can influence things around you that
[00:09:10] causes synchronicities and coincidences to happen, sometimes
[00:09:14] extremely mathematically improbable coincidences to happen.
[00:09:20] And that is something that is taught like that's, that's, I
[00:09:25] would say that that's the biggest and most important part of
[00:09:27] the Crowley system in many ways is, is try to get in touch with
[00:09:30] this, this, this thing, this entity, this thought form, whatever
[00:09:34] it is, this gin that will cause synchronicities to happen because
[00:09:39] what you were doing in magic is you're trying to make the less
[00:09:42] likely, more likely.
[00:09:44] That's something that Dr.
[00:09:45] Christina Oakley Harrington says in magic show.
[00:09:49] You want to make the less likely, more likely.
[00:09:52] So that's a, I mean, that's as good of a definition of magic
[00:09:55] as I've ever heard, but you, but you, once you tap into this.
[00:10:00] I don't know what to call it.
[00:10:01] You know, some people call it the Holy guardian angel, right?
[00:10:04] And then to, because it sounds so ridiculous.
[00:10:06] This sounds like where you're sort of crossing over that line from agnosticism.
[00:10:11] Well, that's what I'm, well, that's what I'm trying to say.
[00:10:13] But the thing is, is that when you already, if you had these kind
[00:10:17] of experiences, you get to a point where you have to make a decision
[00:10:20] like, okay, am I going schizophrenic or did this really happen?
[00:10:26] And you have to, that's where you have to sort of your
[00:10:28] rationality has to come into this.
[00:10:29] And this, but this phenomenon, if you will, of what I'm describing
[00:10:34] is something that if you put, I mean, you could put people into a room
[00:10:39] and they would be able to talk to each other about this.
[00:10:41] And each one of them would know that they know what the
[00:10:43] fuck they're talking about.
[00:10:45] And there would be a conversation unlike any other, I can assure you,
[00:10:48] but it's, this is becoming a common experience and there are, there are
[00:10:51] techniques that have been written down since the 14th century of how to
[00:10:58] connect to that, that mind, that overmind or the over soul or whatever
[00:11:04] you want to talk to, you know, Carl Hing has written about this.
[00:11:06] I mean, this is, there are people, rational brilliant people, you
[00:11:11] know, who have talked about this kind of thing.
[00:11:13] And so, and this has become something that I think a lot of
[00:11:16] people know about the synchronicity thing.
[00:11:18] And, um, and because of, you know, uh, the internet and people be able
[00:11:23] to exchange information more than they could 25 years ago, 30 years ago.
[00:11:27] It's more people know about this, you know?
[00:11:30] And, um, and so, yeah.
[00:11:33] So that's, that's yes.
[00:11:35] Yes.
[00:11:35] I was looking into this recently and, and, and I will get into why in a second.
[00:11:40] Um, but I noticed that you did.
[00:11:44] He wrote, I think he wrote a book called synchronicities or synchronicity.
[00:11:48] What's your sense of how he approached the subject?
[00:11:54] Well, I mean, he's the guy who coined the term, I think, if I'm not
[00:11:58] mistaken, I mean, so you know, it's that would be, you know, it's, it's.
[00:12:02] He observed certain things that seemed to him to be very significant and to
[00:12:07] be, you know, the way that they were connected cause significance, but, you
[00:12:12] know, and he's looking at it also from a point of view of self actualization
[00:12:17] and, and, you know, in dealing with patients also, so, you know, it's,
[00:12:21] are these messages from the subconscious mind?
[00:12:23] Are they from some sort of over soul?
[00:12:26] I mean, he had sort of, you know, shall we say any of syncratic religious
[00:12:31] beliefs that involved his own person in sort of prophecies and stuff like that.
[00:12:35] I mean, these things are not widely known, but he was again, he was the
[00:12:39] person who sort of noticed these kinds of things and sort of codified this
[00:12:42] idea or one of the first to put this in writing and put this
[00:12:46] idea out into the world.
[00:12:47] It's been refined since then by other people.
[00:12:51] The way you phrase it is very interesting as, as, um, whether or
[00:12:55] not it was a messages from the subconscious mind, because I, you know,
[00:13:00] to a certain extent, the power of these things are their externality from us.
[00:13:05] That these are things that we're encountering outside of us.
[00:13:09] Well, that's the thing you have to decide again, am I having a
[00:13:12] schizophrenic reaction to something that the stimuli or is this really
[00:13:17] actually happening?
[00:13:18] And the thing that I noticed when I started to have a lot of these
[00:13:23] things happening to me when I was at the age of 29 was that it, it, it took
[00:13:27] the form of someone like literally like fucking with my head, like joking with
[00:13:33] me, like trying to get me to notice what is going on now in an unmistakable
[00:13:37] way.
[00:13:38] That, um, that I could, um, let me, let me just back up for a second.
[00:13:44] This happened to me when I was 29 because I was taking a lot of
[00:13:47] psychedelic drugs, right?
[00:13:49] I would, I would have described myself as the, it was one of the lowest points
[00:13:53] of my entire life.
[00:13:54] And I felt that, um, I needed to do something to just detonate the log
[00:14:02] jam that was my career and my life at that point.
[00:14:04] Things were not going well for me.
[00:14:06] And so I thought if I did something like that, and by the way, I'd also
[00:14:09] add simultaneous to this, I've been picking up a lot of, uh, cult books,
[00:14:12] whereas that was something that I was doing throughout my teens and early
[00:14:15] twenties, but in my later mid to later twenties, I was less focused on,
[00:14:21] but had, but had started again to pick up a lot of the cult books.
[00:14:23] And one of the things that I was reading it for the first time was Robert
[00:14:26] Anton Wilson's, the cosmic trigger.
[00:14:28] And I was reading, so I read that for the first time when I was about
[00:14:32] that age, so 29.
[00:14:33] So that book is kind of a guidebook from a very friendly, uh,
[00:14:40] perspective of somebody who was going through more or less the same thing
[00:14:43] that was happening to me.
[00:14:44] And it was like a perfect book to have been reading at the time that this
[00:14:46] was happening, but also I was doing the drugs as well, or taking the
[00:14:50] pilot, the psilocybin and DMT that I was smoking because of that book also.
[00:14:55] So you, it was all intertwined, but the point was, is that, um, that's
[00:15:00] when it started happening for me.
[00:15:01] I started to notice a lot of really, really like unusual things that had
[00:15:05] happened and, um, and I would start to think like, okay, am I going nuts?
[00:15:11] Or is this, is this really going on?
[00:15:12] And so there has to be a sort of a way to test that.
[00:15:14] Okay.
[00:15:15] To test, literally test your rationality when you're doubting it.
[00:15:19] Right.
[00:15:19] And so in my case, um, a lot of things happened in a, in a
[00:15:24] short period of time that, that were objectively true.
[00:15:29] And I, and I could give you an example of this is I was doing,
[00:15:32] um, I was in a bookstore, uh, once and I was trying to figure out like,
[00:15:36] I was really broke, right?
[00:15:37] And I was like, should I buy this book and just eat rice
[00:15:40] and beans until Thursday or, or not?
[00:15:42] You know?
[00:15:42] And so I said, oh, I'm going to just open this book and I'm going to put my finger
[00:15:46] on any page, uh, any page at any point in the word or the phrase that is
[00:15:50] underneath my finger, if this is significant to me, then I will buy this book.
[00:15:54] Well, guess what?
[00:15:55] My last name was under my finger.
[00:16:00] My last name was under my finger.
[00:16:02] And then I thought, Oh, well, that was interesting.
[00:16:05] Let me do it a second time and see if there's a, there's a, there's a
[00:16:08] part two of this message that I, that it will be unmistakably
[00:16:11] significant to me.
[00:16:12] And so I did it again.
[00:16:13] I opened the book, I put my finger down and guess what my finger was on
[00:16:18] my date of birth.
[00:16:20] Okay.
[00:16:21] In the same book.
[00:16:22] I'm, I mean, I'm not kidding.
[00:16:24] And the thing is I can actually show you this because I guess we're
[00:16:28] doing an audio only thing, but this book that I'm holding up in front
[00:16:31] of the camera right now that your listeners cannot hear is that book.
[00:16:35] And I could flip through this.
[00:16:37] No, I won't, but I could flip through this and show you exactly
[00:16:40] my last name.
[00:16:41] Can you describe what the book is?
[00:16:44] This book is a book called new it ISIS and it is a, uh, it's, I
[00:16:53] guess it's, you would say it's like a, a compilation of like papers
[00:16:58] and articles that are related to Alastair Crowley, new at ISIS.
[00:17:04] Right.
[00:17:05] But the thing, like I say, and so that happened, right?
[00:17:07] So I don't have to wonder, is that just me?
[00:17:11] Because I can pick this up 30 years later, 28 years later and show
[00:17:14] this to you right now.
[00:17:16] You see what I'm saying?
[00:17:17] Is that the same copy?
[00:17:18] This is it.
[00:17:19] That's the book.
[00:17:21] Correct.
[00:17:22] The one that you're looking at right now.
[00:17:23] So if something like that happens to you, I think that you would
[00:17:27] be justified in saying, okay, this is outside of me, but that's not
[00:17:32] the only example I could give you.
[00:17:33] I could give you dozens and dozens of examples just like that.
[00:17:36] And I'm talking about my name and my birthday in a book.
[00:17:41] I'm not, I mean, like this happened, this has happened.
[00:17:44] You know what I mean?
[00:17:44] Like there's, I mean, I could just start showing you the evidence of this.
[00:17:47] And the other thing is a lot of these experiences that I've had have
[00:17:50] additionally had a witness or there was another person that was involved
[00:17:54] in this who was also noticing it or who indeed had pointed it out to me.
[00:17:59] In the first place.
[00:18:00] So there was a whole spate of these things that were happening and this,
[00:18:03] and, but my experience is not that unique.
[00:18:06] Many people were telling me similar things that had happened to them on
[00:18:11] camera and for the magic show interviews.
[00:18:13] So I'm just trying to, what I'm trying to get across to, you know, your
[00:18:17] listeners is that this is not an uncommon thing.
[00:18:20] This is something that a lot of people have had experience with.
[00:18:23] They've gone through that same sort of process of am I going crazy or
[00:18:27] is this some kind of rash?
[00:18:29] Is this really happening in reality?
[00:18:31] And that is what they call in a cult terms, crossing the
[00:18:35] abyss.
[00:18:37] You're, you're having an experience that you, you, you either going to go
[00:18:41] bonkers because you're going to try to like chase all of this kind of stuff
[00:18:44] and you're going to find significance in numbers constantly and stuff like
[00:18:49] that every time you look at the clock, it's a certain number.
[00:18:52] It does cross over into paranoid schizophrenia at some point.
[00:18:56] Well, that's the thing it can, but if it doesn't, then you have
[00:19:01] crossed the abyss and the cult terms.
[00:19:02] So that's, that's what that means.
[00:19:04] And even if you're just looking at it as a, as a process of psychology,
[00:19:08] it's a significant one.
[00:19:09] Something I like to talk to creative people about musicians, especially is
[00:19:13] the idea of, of the muse, right?
[00:19:16] You know, and, and channeling that creativity from somewhere else.
[00:19:20] Um, I think that when it's working well, it can be a very thought,
[00:19:25] uh, a very helpful thing, but those times when it's not, it can be.
[00:19:32] It can be incredibly frustrating.
[00:19:33] You don't, you don't know what to do with yourself.
[00:19:35] You don't know how to get back to that point.
[00:19:38] What does it mean when you don't experience those things?
[00:19:43] Is it, does it mean that you're not open in the right way?
[00:19:45] Does it mean that you're on the wrong track?
[00:19:48] Well, I don't know what it means because that would be, that's
[00:19:52] above my pay grade certainly.
[00:19:53] But, um, but, but I, I did hear a metaphor the other day that was so
[00:20:00] absolutely perfect that I, I, I repeated as often as I can now when I'm
[00:20:05] talking about this subject, but I was on a podcast called this podcast is
[00:20:09] a ritual and the, the, the very intelligent, very brilliant hosted
[00:20:14] the show as a guy named Devin person.
[00:20:16] And we were talking about this and he said, and I was explaining
[00:20:19] something that had happened to me in detail, similar to the story
[00:20:22] I just was telling you.
[00:20:23] And he said, uh, and I said, but it never adds up to anything.
[00:20:27] That's the thing is it's not like there's this one coherent message where
[00:20:29] you can say, oh, that, that, and that happened.
[00:20:32] And that must be this message for me because it's, it's never in my
[00:20:35] experience has never been that way.
[00:20:37] You didn't pick up the Crowley book and your life just turned around magically.
[00:20:43] No, it had, it was, it was, the thing was I look at it this way.
[00:20:45] It was where my attention was at that moment.
[00:20:48] And so, but here, here's the other thing to think about.
[00:20:51] Okay.
[00:20:52] For me to have had that experience, right?
[00:20:54] That book had to have been printed up and written and published.
[00:20:58] And you know what I'm saying years before this and then been, it was published
[00:21:02] in the UK as a small edition by an independent, you know, entity, but
[00:21:07] yet it made it to the shop in New York.
[00:21:09] And there I was in front of it asking it this question.
[00:21:11] I didn't have to ask it that question.
[00:21:12] I didn't have to pick it up off the shelf, but I did.
[00:21:15] And so it did happen.
[00:21:16] And the thing that I think is interesting about that also is you
[00:21:19] say, well, what are the odds of that having happened?
[00:21:21] The answer is 100% because it did happen.
[00:21:24] It did happen.
[00:21:25] You see what I'm saying?
[00:21:26] So that's, did I answer your question?
[00:21:29] I'm not sure I did.
[00:21:30] In order to have had that specific.
[00:21:33] Oh, hang on.
[00:21:34] I know what I'm saying.
[00:21:35] I didn't remember what I was going to say, right?
[00:21:36] It's what Devin told me.
[00:21:37] Right.
[00:21:38] And he said, and this is like I say, this just it's perfect, but listen to
[00:21:42] this, you said, so think of it this way, if you're, if you're sort of
[00:21:45] walking on a path through your life and you're looking at, and there's
[00:21:49] flowers and beautiful things and bunny rabbits jumping around this path and
[00:21:53] everything is like fantastic and great.
[00:21:56] That's what the synchronicities are when they happen.
[00:22:00] It's, it's a, it's a, that's it's just that you can't really look
[00:22:03] at it any more than that, but if you're taking your path suddenly
[00:22:06] takes a turn to like broken glass and beer bottles and syringes
[00:22:09] and use condoms, you're on a different, it's a different trajectory
[00:22:13] that you're on.
[00:22:14] And I thought, well, that's really a good way of putting it.
[00:22:16] Um, I have never found that a lack of, uh, shall we say of, of
[00:22:21] synchronicities happening to me for years and years at a time is
[00:22:26] anything to be alarmed at.
[00:22:27] You know what I mean?
[00:22:28] I've for the most part have worked from home for the past 25 years of my
[00:22:33] life, so it's not like I'm out in the world and things are happening
[00:22:36] to me in that way, but when I am out in the world and when I am
[00:22:42] doing something which I consider to be, um, you know, spell casting
[00:22:48] and, and, and what somebody else might look at as documentary filmmaking
[00:22:51] of course, but when I see that happen, that's when these things start
[00:22:54] to happen again.
[00:22:55] And I've lately been going through, as I've been doing this, um,
[00:23:00] you know, Kickstarter and doing a lot of podcasts and talking about
[00:23:03] these things there are, have literally been synchronicities that
[00:23:06] have happened while the shows are being recorded.
[00:23:10] There are people showing up from my past who have, I mean, it's,
[00:23:16] it's a very interesting thing what's going on right now.
[00:23:18] And, and, and it's, it's, so the past month has been a period of
[00:23:22] intense synchronous and just off the, off the charts.
[00:23:26] Whereas many times years and years will go by and I wouldn't perceive
[00:23:29] anything as necessarily, and it does not alarm me.
[00:23:33] It does not alarm me in any way.
[00:23:34] You discussed almost like the butterfly effect, all these things
[00:23:38] that had to fall in line perfectly in order for that book to arrive
[00:23:41] on the shelf in front of you.
[00:23:42] But, but also I think what you were alluding to as well though, is
[00:23:47] that you, that you had to ask that question and you had to be
[00:23:53] open to receive that information.
[00:23:57] Well, well, yes.
[00:23:59] Um, yes, that's true, but it would have existed no matter what
[00:24:02] my orientation was towards that.
[00:24:04] I, you know, I mean, if.
[00:24:06] But in terms of actually receiving that specific information and then
[00:24:09] purchasing the book, you had to ask that question.
[00:24:12] Well, yeah.
[00:24:14] I also had to be in that store that day.
[00:24:16] You know, I, it also had to be a situation where that book hadn't
[00:24:19] been purchased the day before by someone else, which it could have
[00:24:22] been, you know, a different reality, you know, so it lined up for me.
[00:24:27] You know, if you were, if you run the film backwards, a lot of
[00:24:30] things had to happen for that experience of significance to occur
[00:24:35] to me to complete that transaction.
[00:24:37] You had to be open to that transaction completing and you had
[00:24:41] to believe that that was significant information.
[00:24:45] Well, who wouldn't have faced with it, you know, with, with,
[00:24:49] with that, but most people or a lot of people wouldn't have asked
[00:24:53] the book, the question in the first place and they wouldn't
[00:24:56] have put their finger down.
[00:24:58] Well, like I say, I was going through a period of intense
[00:25:00] synchronicities anyway, so I was more inclined to, uh, you
[00:25:05] know, go through such a thought experiment as to do that
[00:25:08] in order for these synchronicities to, again, probably
[00:25:12] above your pay grade, but in order for these synchronicities
[00:25:15] to really be significant, do you have to be open and do you
[00:25:20] have to believe that they're significant?
[00:25:24] Well, it didn't happen to you.
[00:25:25] So let me ask you, what would you say?
[00:25:26] I just told you a story that happened to me.
[00:25:29] So how did you react to that?
[00:25:32] I know how I react to it.
[00:25:33] It's, it's, it's, but it's, I don't feel like I'm
[00:25:35] objecting to something that is, that exists in objective reality.
[00:25:41] So how do you react to my story?
[00:25:45] I mean, the thing is I didn't just tell you that story
[00:25:47] because it seems like it's, it seems like a lie almost
[00:25:50] cause it's so stupid.
[00:25:51] Right.
[00:25:52] Wouldn't you say, I think it's dumb, but anyway, you
[00:25:55] know, but I'm not embarrassed to tell you the story
[00:25:56] because again, I could, I just held the book up and showed
[00:25:59] it to you on camera.
[00:25:59] So how do you react to that story is what I want to know.
[00:26:02] Let me give you, uh, let me give you a story that I
[00:26:05] experienced recently and that it's not quite, it's not
[00:26:09] quite at that level, but it's significant enough that
[00:26:12] it really stopped me in my tracks.
[00:26:14] And that you're the second person who I'm telling
[00:26:16] this to after my therapist because I really want to
[00:26:19] get your take on, on this and how to sort of
[00:26:22] how to almost how to react to it.
[00:26:24] I'm honored because I've been thinking about
[00:26:27] synchronicity specifically because of this.
[00:26:29] And it's very interesting that you, I think we met
[00:26:34] years ago, uh, but that you've kind of come back into
[00:26:38] my life as I'm trying to, you know, process this
[00:26:41] information.
[00:26:41] So I, I recently left New York city after 20 years.
[00:26:47] I moved upstate into the Hudson Valley.
[00:26:49] It bought this house.
[00:26:50] So, you know, things, things have been changing in
[00:26:52] my life, I think, you know, largely for the better
[00:26:56] about two or three weeks ago.
[00:26:58] Sorry, I'm going to bring the podcast down a little bit,
[00:27:00] but about two or three weeks ago, uh, my cousin and
[00:27:04] her 13 year old son were, um, died in a car crash.
[00:27:09] You know, three, three other children, a mother
[00:27:11] horrible, right?
[00:27:13] I mean, just beyond the kind of stuff that
[00:27:17] makes you, you know, but, uh, about a week later,
[00:27:23] I walk outside and there's a piece of paper
[00:27:27] just sitting like it trash, but not trash with other
[00:27:30] trash, like just a straight piece of litter.
[00:27:32] I looked down, it's a personal check and the name
[00:27:36] on the check was my cousin's first name and her
[00:27:40] son's first name.
[00:27:41] Those were the first and last name of the person
[00:27:43] on the check that to me, right?
[00:27:46] Again, probability very low of something like that.
[00:27:50] Very low.
[00:27:51] Yeah.
[00:27:51] What does one do when these sorts of things
[00:27:53] enter their lives?
[00:27:56] I don't know.
[00:27:57] I mean, I don't, I just don't have an answer for you.
[00:27:59] I don't think anybody really does.
[00:28:01] You know, I've heard, I've, you know, I think like
[00:28:03] I was saying, Devin person's definition of that,
[00:28:05] that path with the flowers seems to be,
[00:28:09] it's the best one I've heard.
[00:28:11] Just to sort of accept that the universe is telling
[00:28:13] you something or that you're on the right path,
[00:28:15] that you're with the bunnies and the sunshine.
[00:28:18] Well, I mean, I don't see, it would be difficult
[00:28:19] to say that about the experience that you just
[00:28:21] described obviously.
[00:28:22] So I, again, I just don't know.
[00:28:24] I know that these things happen and that,
[00:28:26] that other people notice that they happen too.
[00:28:28] You're noticing that it happens, but I, it's,
[00:28:31] I, the explanation of it has always escaped me.
[00:28:36] I've never seen any, it doesn't add up to anything.
[00:28:38] It never has for me.
[00:28:39] Those of us who spend their lives pursuing
[00:28:42] information, we're building on the information
[00:28:45] collected by people in the path, in the past.
[00:28:48] You know, you picked up the Crowley book or
[00:28:50] we're talking about Jung or, you know, any
[00:28:52] other numbers of people.
[00:28:54] There's always an acceptance that any rational
[00:28:57] person in their life, that certain things are
[00:28:59] going to remain a mystery for the rest of your
[00:29:02] life, that you're probably never going to quite
[00:29:04] figure out what to do with that information.
[00:29:07] If only because of, for the hundreds of years
[00:29:09] or thousands of years that people have been
[00:29:11] seeking out that piece of information, they
[00:29:14] haven't stumbled upon it either.
[00:29:15] Exactly.
[00:29:16] Cliche to say it's the, it's a journey, not
[00:29:19] the destination, but, you know, just sort of
[00:29:21] broadly speaking, what is the value in sort of
[00:29:23] in trying to pursue this information and having
[00:29:26] these conversations on this specific topic?
[00:29:29] Feel that I can offer something to people
[00:29:36] who are looking to find answers or at least
[00:29:40] some solace in knowing that they're not
[00:29:43] alone in this way.
[00:29:45] But I also think that it's, I have always
[00:29:50] tried, if you ask me like, okay, what's the,
[00:29:53] what's, what were you put on this planet to do?
[00:29:55] What's your, what's your goal in life?
[00:29:58] It's been to encourage people to become more
[00:30:01] intelligent.
[00:30:02] It's been to encourage people to be
[00:30:04] skeptical and to understand them.
[00:30:06] The media that they get is not necessarily
[00:30:08] something that is unbiased.
[00:30:10] But it's, I feel like it within the occult
[00:30:13] space, certain things have happened to me
[00:30:15] that I am able to explain.
[00:30:19] I think in a way that people might see them
[00:30:21] something happening similar to them and be
[00:30:24] able to learn from that.
[00:30:26] I feel like also by bringing these other
[00:30:28] people who have participated in Magic
[00:30:31] Show with me, they're, you know, to the,
[00:30:34] you know, hopefully in a professionally
[00:30:36] produced sort of production like this, it
[00:30:40] will reach a wide audience.
[00:30:42] That's it's palatable.
[00:30:43] Yeah, it's palatable.
[00:30:44] That's the thing is I don't think as the
[00:30:46] editor and cameraman, Eric Biddleman,
[00:30:47] who's one of my oldest friends, by the way,
[00:30:49] the guy that I'm working with is somebody
[00:30:51] who's been like a brother to me for most
[00:30:53] of my life.
[00:30:54] He says this, he said it, he said it
[00:30:57] many times.
[00:30:57] He's like, no one would start watching
[00:31:00] this and turn it off.
[00:31:03] Like no one, you know?
[00:31:04] And I think that's true.
[00:31:07] That's about as high as praise gets
[00:31:09] these days that somebody's attention span
[00:31:12] can last for that entire interview.
[00:31:14] Yeah, exactly.
[00:31:16] Don't we know it, you know?
[00:31:17] But it's like, yeah, well, the TikTok attention
[00:31:19] span, but I think that people would
[00:31:20] just sort of, yeah, he's, I don't think
[00:31:23] he's wrong.
[00:31:23] I think no one would turn this off
[00:31:25] because it's very compelling and the
[00:31:27] personalities are very strong
[00:31:29] personalities.
[00:31:29] So there's, it's very compelling.
[00:31:31] And again, they're looking straight
[00:31:32] at the camera.
[00:31:33] So there's this, there's a depth.
[00:31:35] You're making eye contact with them
[00:31:36] and that's part of, I think why that
[00:31:38] is so powerful.
[00:31:39] We're making eye contact right now in
[00:31:41] that way, you know, so.
[00:31:42] You explained this synchronicity and
[00:31:44] I've heard you, I listened to some
[00:31:45] recent interviews that you did as
[00:31:48] well, where you describe some others
[00:31:51] and they're, you know, they're about
[00:31:54] of that caliber as far as
[00:31:56] improbability.
[00:31:58] Yeah.
[00:31:58] You alluded a little bit to some
[00:32:00] things that had happened over the
[00:32:02] years, you know, I know we discussed
[00:32:03] the synchronicities.
[00:32:04] I'm sure that those played a role
[00:32:06] in it as well, but as somebody who
[00:32:08] is, you know, who is scientifically
[00:32:10] minded and who values skepticism,
[00:32:13] which it sounds like you do.
[00:32:17] This is something you again, having
[00:32:19] listened to some recent interviews
[00:32:20] you did, this is something that
[00:32:21] you've been interested in from a
[00:32:23] fairly young age.
[00:32:25] Yeah.
[00:32:26] What has kept you in and around
[00:32:29] that world and what has kept you
[00:32:30] pursuing that subject?
[00:32:33] Oh, it's a worldview.
[00:32:34] It's, it's, it's a, it's a
[00:32:35] worldview.
[00:32:36] It's always, you know, you're,
[00:32:37] you're sort of alluding to when I
[00:32:39] was younger, I guess, when I was
[00:32:41] talking about on some of these
[00:32:41] other podcasts, I was,
[00:32:43] there was never a time in my life
[00:32:45] that I can remember that I did
[00:32:46] not sort of consider myself to be
[00:32:49] someone who does or could do
[00:32:52] magic.
[00:32:53] And, and that was everything
[00:32:55] from relating to the, the, you
[00:32:58] know, Elizabeth Montgomery's
[00:33:02] family on Bewitched.
[00:33:03] Bewitched, yeah.
[00:33:04] You know what I mean?
[00:33:05] Like, you know, like her uncle
[00:33:06] Arthur, the warlock.
[00:33:07] I mean, that just seemed like a
[00:33:08] cool thing to me.
[00:33:10] And I was also really into it.
[00:33:12] Sorry.
[00:33:12] I'm going to, it's going to drive
[00:33:13] me crazy until I think of the
[00:33:15] actor's name, the comedian who
[00:33:17] played uncle Arthur.
[00:33:18] It wasn't Maurice Evans, was
[00:33:19] it?
[00:33:19] It's a, he's the guy with the
[00:33:22] mustache.
[00:33:23] Lind, Lind, Paul Lind.
[00:33:27] Was it?
[00:33:28] Paul Lind, right?
[00:33:28] Wasn't Paul Lind?
[00:33:30] Well, there was, there were
[00:33:30] three, I can remember, I
[00:33:32] don't remember, I don't
[00:33:32] remember him in that to tell
[00:33:33] you the truth, but he probably
[00:33:35] was, but it'd be like 50
[00:33:36] years probably since I've
[00:33:37] watched it.
[00:33:38] You know, that trivia just
[00:33:39] crawls into your brain and you
[00:33:40] like, until you get that piece
[00:33:42] I'm pretty sure it was Paul
[00:33:44] Lind was uncle Arthur, but I
[00:33:45] could, I could also be wrong.
[00:33:47] I bet you're right though.
[00:33:49] So, um, but that was the kind
[00:33:50] of character that I would look
[00:33:51] at and, uh, and sort of
[00:33:53] identify with in a strange
[00:33:54] way, you know, um, like,
[00:33:56] uh, bell book and candle was
[00:33:57] another film that I really
[00:33:58] loved when I was a kid.
[00:34:00] And, um, but that, like I
[00:34:02] say it's sort of, or it,
[00:34:05] I, I instinctively knew, shall
[00:34:07] we say, or felt that I was
[00:34:09] one of them.
[00:34:11] Since I mentioned Paul
[00:34:12] Lind kind of interesting that
[00:34:13] there's almost, there's almost
[00:34:15] a parallel to sexuality there
[00:34:16] as far as knowing, you know,
[00:34:19] what, what is the, um, the
[00:34:20] Bob Dylan, you know, you
[00:34:22] know, something's happening
[00:34:23] here, but you don't know
[00:34:24] what it is.
[00:34:24] You know, you know, there's
[00:34:25] something, you know, you
[00:34:26] know, there's something maybe
[00:34:28] a little bit, a little bit
[00:34:29] different and maybe a different
[00:34:32] from the, your, your friends
[00:34:33] and your family, but until you
[00:34:35] have that vocabulary and until
[00:34:37] you see examples of it, you
[00:34:39] don't quite know what's
[00:34:40] different about you.
[00:34:42] Well, that's, that's kind of
[00:34:43] fantastic that you use Paul
[00:34:44] Lin as the example because,
[00:34:46] uh, I mean, I mean, he's such
[00:34:49] a unique person in pop culture
[00:34:52] of the sixties and seventies
[00:34:54] and eighties because he was
[00:34:56] one of the very first, you
[00:34:58] know, clearly obviously
[00:34:59] visibly gay men, but it
[00:35:01] was never discussed.
[00:35:03] It was never discussed.
[00:35:04] You do that.
[00:35:04] There was something perhaps
[00:35:05] different about Paul in, but
[00:35:07] it wasn't discussed.
[00:35:09] It was never, I think Elton
[00:35:10] John, think about Elton John's
[00:35:11] sexuality was barely hinted at
[00:35:13] until he himself decided to
[00:35:15] come out as a bisexual
[00:35:16] Liberace very famously.
[00:35:18] Exactly.
[00:35:19] Yeah, exactly.
[00:35:19] Liberace too.
[00:35:20] It's like no one really
[00:35:21] talked about it.
[00:35:22] It was, it was kind of
[00:35:22] understood, but the thought
[00:35:24] never got connected.
[00:35:26] Shall we say it was like
[00:35:27] the, it was just sort of
[00:35:27] hanging out in space that
[00:35:29] thought never got connected
[00:35:30] with the, with the, um, with
[00:35:32] the general public and that
[00:35:34] brings up something else that
[00:35:35] I saw that was fascinated
[00:35:36] uh, recently is that there's
[00:35:37] a, um, a documentary that
[00:35:39] was made by Mike Wallace.
[00:35:41] It was pre 60 of 60 minutes.
[00:35:43] Yeah.
[00:35:43] But it was just a couple
[00:35:44] of years before that.
[00:35:45] I think it came out in 1968
[00:35:47] and it was called the
[00:35:48] homosexual.
[00:35:51] But I mean, I mean, how
[00:35:52] crazy is that if you think
[00:35:53] about it, it's like within
[00:35:54] the last, you know, 55
[00:35:56] years, there had to be a
[00:35:58] documentary explaining the
[00:36:00] concept of homosexuality on
[00:36:02] network television to explain
[00:36:03] that to the American people.
[00:36:06] I don't want to belittle
[00:36:06] anyone struggles on either
[00:36:08] side, but do you think that
[00:36:09] there is a parallel as far as
[00:36:12] people's understanding, uh,
[00:36:14] and acceptance of the
[00:36:16] occult?
[00:36:17] Not really.
[00:36:17] Not really.
[00:36:18] I think it's, I think, um,
[00:36:21] I think that a lot of that
[00:36:22] maybe would have been the
[00:36:22] case before, like let's
[00:36:24] certainly say like the
[00:36:25] satanic panic era of the
[00:36:26] late eighties.
[00:36:27] I think it certainly wasn't
[00:36:28] be the kind of thing that
[00:36:29] you would want to put,
[00:36:30] you know, had, had Facebook
[00:36:31] existed then it wouldn't
[00:36:32] be the kind of thing you
[00:36:33] would want to have
[00:36:33] advertised about yourself at
[00:36:35] that time, because it could
[00:36:36] have affected your
[00:36:36] employment.
[00:36:37] But here today in a post
[00:36:39] Harry Potter post MCU
[00:36:41] universe, I think that,
[00:36:42] you know, it's very
[00:36:44] common.
[00:36:44] I mean, witchcraft is
[00:36:46] something that has been
[00:36:47] picked up as a, it's a
[00:36:50] subset of feminism to a
[00:36:52] certain extent, you know,
[00:36:53] so it's a, for someone to
[00:36:55] call themselves a witch
[00:36:57] is, uh, could be seen in
[00:36:58] in that those terms as
[00:37:00] well, but it's a very
[00:37:01] common thing for people to
[00:37:02] identify with these days.
[00:37:04] And I, you know,
[00:37:05] so I don't, I don't think
[00:37:06] there's a whole lot of
[00:37:06] stigma attached to it.
[00:37:08] Is like there used to be
[00:37:09] Harry Potter, obviously
[00:37:11] problematic for different
[00:37:12] releases is relating to
[00:37:14] sexuality now, but as far
[00:37:16] as, um, you know, whether
[00:37:19] it's Harry Potter,
[00:37:20] obviously be which, you
[00:37:23] know, there, there's,
[00:37:24] there's always been an
[00:37:25] element, even, you know,
[00:37:27] King Arthur, right?
[00:37:27] There's, there's, there's
[00:37:28] always been magic in,
[00:37:31] in popular culture.
[00:37:33] Um, but, but not everyone
[00:37:35] makes that leap necessarily
[00:37:37] from, you know, this is a
[00:37:38] fictionalized no, no, no
[00:37:40] one is playing a statement,
[00:37:42] but I would assume the
[00:37:43] majority of people who
[00:37:44] watch, uh, Marvel movies
[00:37:47] don't think that they're
[00:37:48] real, but you, you feel
[00:37:50] that just like a
[00:37:51] representation of that in
[00:37:52] popular culture is perhaps
[00:37:55] opening up people's minds
[00:37:57] to possibilities.
[00:38:00] I do.
[00:38:00] And specifically when we
[00:38:02] talk about the, the MCU,
[00:38:04] you know, when people in
[00:38:07] the, in that audience,
[00:38:08] and that's, you know,
[00:38:08] millions and millions and
[00:38:09] millions of people around
[00:38:11] the world, they're
[00:38:11] hearing about something
[00:38:12] like chaos magic.
[00:38:14] And it's, it sounds
[00:38:16] cool and they think they
[00:38:17] know what it is or, you
[00:38:19] know, but do they know
[00:38:20] that it's something that,
[00:38:21] you know, started in the
[00:38:22] seventies or arguably
[00:38:23] before that with Austin
[00:38:24] spare, but does they
[00:38:25] know that it was a real
[00:38:27] thing, a movement within
[00:38:28] the occult community
[00:38:29] that took place
[00:38:30] historically in the
[00:38:32] nineteen seventies and in
[00:38:32] the nineteen eighties and
[00:38:33] beyond.
[00:38:34] And that it is in fact,
[00:38:36] you know, I would say
[00:38:37] undoubtedly the most
[00:38:39] commonly practiced form
[00:38:41] of magic.
[00:38:41] I would, I would think
[00:38:43] that's, that's my,
[00:38:44] that's my guess, guess,
[00:38:45] I guess, but, you
[00:38:47] know, these people who
[00:38:48] are watching those,
[00:38:49] those movies know that
[00:38:50] in a sense, I think
[00:38:52] maybe, you know, obviously
[00:38:54] the internet broadly,
[00:38:55] but you know, there's a
[00:38:58] good argument to be made
[00:38:59] that Wikipedia is the
[00:39:02] most empowering entity
[00:39:05] in the history of mankind
[00:39:06] as far as opening people
[00:39:08] up to different channels
[00:39:09] of knowledge.
[00:39:10] Absolutely.
[00:39:12] I would agree with that.
[00:39:13] I guess in that specific
[00:39:13] case, it's that that
[00:39:15] pursuit of hearing about
[00:39:17] something in a movie.
[00:39:21] Researching, I hate,
[00:39:22] I hate again, I hate
[00:39:23] to say do you know,
[00:39:24] doing your own research
[00:39:25] because that has its own
[00:39:26] baggage in the, in the
[00:39:28] certain connotations
[00:39:29] but it is that opportunity
[00:39:30] to sort of like take
[00:39:31] that next step into
[00:39:33] the broader world
[00:39:33] and pre Wikipedia,
[00:39:34] you know, just even
[00:39:35] going through the library
[00:39:36] and reading some
[00:39:37] researching some books
[00:39:38] on the subject.
[00:39:39] Sorry, I bring up QAnon,
[00:39:41] but that's an interesting
[00:39:43] example of some of this
[00:39:46] almost in reverse
[00:39:47] where it's people
[00:39:49] seeing, making connections
[00:39:51] in their mind
[00:39:52] and taking them in
[00:39:54] a far more problematic
[00:39:55] direction.
[00:39:57] Yeah, I mean,
[00:39:59] you know, QAnon to me
[00:40:01] is a phenomenon
[00:40:02] that was clearly
[00:40:04] amplified by the Russians.
[00:40:06] And if you really look
[00:40:07] at the way that that
[00:40:09] that sub that
[00:40:10] that knowledge,
[00:40:11] that information,
[00:40:12] how widely distributed
[00:40:14] it became,
[00:40:15] there's a certain point
[00:40:16] where you can sort of
[00:40:17] look at the, you know,
[00:40:18] look at the Internet
[00:40:19] and just say like,
[00:40:19] OK, how many mentions
[00:40:20] of this were there?
[00:40:21] And then on a certain day,
[00:40:22] it explodes.
[00:40:24] OK, and there was no doubt
[00:40:25] about it that it was
[00:40:25] the Russians who were
[00:40:26] amplifying that signal.
[00:40:28] And that kind of
[00:40:31] you know, information war
[00:40:33] to me,
[00:40:34] I would describe that
[00:40:35] and as black magic
[00:40:37] because it's a
[00:40:38] it's a way of literally
[00:40:39] just, you know,
[00:40:42] doing harm to your enemies
[00:40:43] from a distance.
[00:40:45] The very that's
[00:40:46] the definition of black magic.
[00:40:47] And you're doing that
[00:40:48] in the Russians are doing
[00:40:49] that in such a way
[00:40:51] that
[00:40:52] they're taking something
[00:40:53] that's so malign, right?
[00:40:55] This whole QAnon
[00:40:57] the guy, you know,
[00:40:57] that the father and I
[00:40:58] can't think of their name,
[00:40:59] but the father and son who
[00:41:01] operate that server
[00:41:02] where it was.
[00:41:03] And they have all of these
[00:41:04] like, you know,
[00:41:05] it's been rumored.
[00:41:06] 8chan.
[00:41:07] Yeah, exactly.
[00:41:08] And it's been rumored
[00:41:09] that they have even like,
[00:41:10] you know, child pornography
[00:41:11] and stuff like that
[00:41:12] on their servers.
[00:41:13] And they're very
[00:41:13] unsavory characters.
[00:41:15] And Vice has done
[00:41:17] documentaries on them.
[00:41:18] And you can see
[00:41:19] what they look like
[00:41:20] and where they live
[00:41:21] in the whole thing.
[00:41:21] And.
[00:41:23] You know,
[00:41:24] the evidence is pretty
[00:41:24] compelling that it's these two
[00:41:27] weirdos,
[00:41:28] you know, who are
[00:41:29] the ones who are propagating this
[00:41:30] with millions and millions
[00:41:32] of people who whose minds
[00:41:33] have been hijacked by this
[00:41:35] sort of.
[00:41:37] Thought contagion,
[00:41:38] if you will,
[00:41:39] you know,
[00:41:40] and then the Russians
[00:41:40] have amplified it even further.
[00:41:42] So it just keeps going.
[00:41:42] So the Russians have taken
[00:41:43] something like it's like saying
[00:41:44] like, oh, here's this kind of
[00:41:46] information cancer.
[00:41:48] Let's just,
[00:41:48] you know,
[00:41:49] do what we can to make it
[00:41:50] spread as far as we can.
[00:41:52] And that's like I say,
[00:41:53] that is a kind of a black magic.
[00:41:54] They're they're they're
[00:41:55] destroying American families
[00:41:57] can't speak to each other
[00:41:58] anymore because there's a QAnon
[00:41:59] adherent.
[00:42:01] You know,
[00:42:01] there are people who are
[00:42:03] who are who are ruining
[00:42:04] their their own lives
[00:42:05] over this,
[00:42:06] you know, or they're
[00:42:08] they they talk about it
[00:42:09] in absurd ways.
[00:42:10] You know, it's I mean,
[00:42:11] it's it's a strange phenomenon
[00:42:13] to observe all of this.
[00:42:15] But like I say,
[00:42:15] it's it's a it's a kind
[00:42:16] of a black magic is the way
[00:42:17] that I see that maybe
[00:42:18] I'm giving people too much
[00:42:20] benefit of the doubt,
[00:42:22] broadly speaking.
[00:42:23] But I think there are parallels
[00:42:26] to be drawn
[00:42:28] with these.
[00:42:31] I guess, I guess sort of seeking
[00:42:32] knowledge and in the case
[00:42:34] of what's been happening,
[00:42:36] you know, I would say
[00:42:38] late stage capitalism,
[00:42:39] you know, early 20th century
[00:42:41] and an empire in decline
[00:42:43] that we're all dealing with.
[00:42:44] Everyone understands
[00:42:47] broadly in the U.S.
[00:42:48] that things are bad
[00:42:50] and that things are not
[00:42:51] going in the right direction.
[00:42:52] The difference is
[00:42:54] what certain people,
[00:42:56] you know, what the sources are.
[00:42:58] I think in the same way that
[00:42:59] that you you have
[00:43:01] and a lot of people
[00:43:02] have pursued this,
[00:43:04] you know, they are
[00:43:05] they're seeking these answers
[00:43:06] in QAnon and historically
[00:43:08] that people have looked into
[00:43:11] religion for these
[00:43:13] kinds of answers.
[00:43:15] There's a lot of parallels
[00:43:16] to be drawn.
[00:43:16] But again,
[00:43:18] and this is getting very abstract
[00:43:21] and very subjective,
[00:43:24] I guess, but how do you know?
[00:43:27] How do you know when you're
[00:43:28] on the right path?
[00:43:29] You know, how do you know that
[00:43:30] that you're
[00:43:32] you're working for the forces
[00:43:33] of good and not evil?
[00:43:35] Well, I mean, in terms of like
[00:43:37] understanding what the difference
[00:43:38] between QAnon and
[00:43:40] rational or rational worldview.
[00:43:42] When you start the journey
[00:43:44] down the rabbit hole,
[00:43:45] when you start the journey
[00:43:46] of doing your own research.
[00:43:48] Well, that's I mean, that's
[00:43:49] it's people who are just
[00:43:51] not media literate.
[00:43:53] It's as simple as that.
[00:43:54] I mean, it's you know,
[00:43:55] it's just something
[00:43:55] that the American school system
[00:43:57] just has not
[00:43:58] kept up the pace on.
[00:43:59] I mean, it's interesting.
[00:44:00] I read it.
[00:44:01] I don't remember where exactly
[00:44:02] I read this, but apparently
[00:44:03] the the younger people are
[00:44:05] it's much easier for them
[00:44:07] to recognize shit from Shinola now.
[00:44:09] They sort of understand
[00:44:10] something that's more
[00:44:11] as it were, fake news
[00:44:12] or propaganda than their
[00:44:15] older that older people do
[00:44:17] because they've been exposed
[00:44:18] to it all their lives.
[00:44:19] So they have a more
[00:44:21] they're more sensitive
[00:44:22] or nuanced view of it
[00:44:23] than somebody who was.
[00:44:26] You know, that was the thing
[00:44:26] that I was noticing
[00:44:28] and I sort of predicted
[00:44:29] what happened in the 90s.
[00:44:31] That was when you had better
[00:44:36] art direction of websites
[00:44:37] and they were running
[00:44:39] banner ads for things
[00:44:40] that advertising would confer
[00:44:43] a patina of
[00:44:45] this must be the truth
[00:44:46] or, you know, like
[00:44:47] if something that
[00:44:48] in other words,
[00:44:49] like if corporate America
[00:44:50] would be sponsoring
[00:44:51] something like this,
[00:44:52] it must have passed
[00:44:53] a certain muster.
[00:44:54] So, you know, so something like
[00:44:57] Breitbart would have been
[00:44:59] one of the first sites
[00:45:00] that sort of really
[00:45:01] benefited from,
[00:45:02] like I say, a more
[00:45:03] professional presentation
[00:45:05] from the graphic
[00:45:06] design point of view
[00:45:07] and also from the
[00:45:09] the use of advertising,
[00:45:10] which is a
[00:45:11] semiotic message
[00:45:12] that is a strong one
[00:45:13] to someone who
[00:45:15] doesn't know any better
[00:45:16] and can and, you know,
[00:45:17] who cannot really, you know,
[00:45:19] I mean, that's the thing is
[00:45:20] I think largely,
[00:45:22] you know, you look
[00:45:22] at the American public,
[00:45:23] a lot of people just believe
[00:45:24] the last thing that they read.
[00:45:26] They don't have
[00:45:26] they don't have any
[00:45:27] deeply held beliefs at all.
[00:45:29] That's the whole Trump thing
[00:45:30] you hear about, right?
[00:45:31] That he's literally
[00:45:32] the last person who spoke to him.
[00:45:34] Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:45:36] I mean, that's and that
[00:45:37] and, you know,
[00:45:38] he is the avatar
[00:45:39] of that sort of mindset
[00:45:41] in the population.
[00:45:42] You know, there's
[00:45:43] I would say that
[00:45:44] there's probably about 25,
[00:45:45] you know, between 25
[00:45:47] and 30 percent
[00:45:47] of the population
[00:45:48] this country
[00:45:49] is just a bunch of fucking idiots.
[00:45:50] One of the conversations
[00:45:51] that I listened to ahead
[00:45:53] of this was you spoke to
[00:45:55] a month or so ago
[00:45:55] it was posted,
[00:45:56] he spoke to our mutual friend
[00:45:58] Douglas Rushkoff
[00:45:59] and the subject of
[00:46:00] Gamergate came up
[00:46:02] and, you know, that that
[00:46:04] and Pepe and that whole phenomenon
[00:46:07] is perhaps an example
[00:46:10] kind of counter to
[00:46:11] I don't know
[00:46:12] whether it's media literacy,
[00:46:13] but certainly, you know,
[00:46:14] the kind of broadly held idea
[00:46:16] that people get
[00:46:17] are more liberal
[00:46:19] as they're younger.
[00:46:22] I would say I've gone counter
[00:46:23] to I've actually moved
[00:46:24] further left as I've gotten older,
[00:46:25] but that's a
[00:46:26] that's a different conversation.
[00:46:27] But, you know,
[00:46:29] when you look at that on one side
[00:46:30] and then when you look on
[00:46:32] media literacy
[00:46:33] on the other side,
[00:46:35] just just broadly
[00:46:36] in terms of what's
[00:46:37] happening in the world
[00:46:38] and how bad everything
[00:46:40] kind of feels
[00:46:40] to everyone right now.
[00:46:43] What are the things
[00:46:44] that give you hope
[00:46:46] that it's going to turn around
[00:46:47] that we will head
[00:46:48] in that right direction
[00:46:49] at some point?
[00:46:56] Yeah, report the world's longest sigh.
[00:47:00] I don't know.
[00:47:02] I'm generally pretty
[00:47:02] optimistic person,
[00:47:03] and I would certainly
[00:47:04] consider myself a utopian.
[00:47:07] I too, I would say
[00:47:08] I probably on the political scales
[00:47:11] as left as you can get
[00:47:12] in many respects.
[00:47:13] And so I think, OK,
[00:47:17] one of the things
[00:47:17] that actually does give me hope
[00:47:19] is AI.
[00:47:20] And I think because
[00:47:20] AI is going to disrupt
[00:47:21] the the job market
[00:47:24] to the extent that it's going to require
[00:47:28] that there is some kind
[00:47:30] of guaranteed income
[00:47:31] situation that happens.
[00:47:32] And I think that
[00:47:33] that's going to be a big step
[00:47:35] towards a future
[00:47:36] where people are not as
[00:47:39] you know, the thing is
[00:47:40] if the state
[00:47:41] the state is going to have
[00:47:42] to provide for people
[00:47:43] when they can no longer
[00:47:45] provide for themselves, you know.
[00:47:47] But what you're describing,
[00:47:50] I get the sense of
[00:47:50] and this is speaking
[00:47:51] as somebody who, you know,
[00:47:52] I'm a writer and I write
[00:47:54] about technology.
[00:47:55] So I think about that
[00:47:56] specifically a lot.
[00:47:57] But you're almost describing,
[00:47:59] you know, the idea
[00:48:00] of kind of of hitting rock bottom
[00:48:02] where things have to get so bad
[00:48:04] that things can start
[00:48:05] to get better again.
[00:48:06] In that case, a lot of people
[00:48:07] will have to lose their jobs.
[00:48:08] Well, I'm not I see
[00:48:10] I'm not seeing it
[00:48:10] as a rock bottom situation.
[00:48:11] I'm saying that the trends
[00:48:12] and when when when situation
[00:48:14] like a job like an accountant
[00:48:17] is no longer necessary
[00:48:18] as a job category
[00:48:19] and you have millions,
[00:48:20] tens of millions of people
[00:48:21] who will never be employed
[00:48:23] in that field again.
[00:48:25] And it's been they've been
[00:48:26] doing it their entire lives.
[00:48:27] You know, it's truckers also
[00:48:30] when there's automated vehicles
[00:48:31] that are going to be moving
[00:48:33] our food and goods
[00:48:35] across state lines
[00:48:36] and there's no longer a need
[00:48:37] for long haul trucking
[00:48:40] or even, you know,
[00:48:42] arguably even shorter
[00:48:43] delivery hauls.
[00:48:44] That's the biggest job category
[00:48:46] in the United States
[00:48:47] and every single city
[00:48:47] and county in this country
[00:48:49] is being a trucker
[00:48:51] delivering things.
[00:48:51] And that's going to go away.
[00:48:53] There's there's
[00:48:54] there's just no question
[00:48:55] that this is going to happen.
[00:48:56] But I don't see this
[00:48:57] being a situation
[00:48:57] where everybody's
[00:48:59] lost their job
[00:49:00] and they hit rock bottom.
[00:49:00] I think there has to be
[00:49:01] a transition out of this
[00:49:03] and it's going to have
[00:49:04] to happen quickly
[00:49:04] because people are going
[00:49:05] to need to eat
[00:49:06] and everybody's going
[00:49:07] to recognize this.
[00:49:09] Collectively, you know what I mean?
[00:49:11] I don't care if you look
[00:49:12] on the right or the left,
[00:49:13] you know what I mean?
[00:49:13] When you have no food
[00:49:15] for your family
[00:49:15] and you have no possibility
[00:49:17] of getting a job
[00:49:17] and this has been going on
[00:49:18] for months and months and months.
[00:49:19] There's going to be
[00:49:20] a political upheaval
[00:49:21] in this country
[00:49:22] that I predict
[00:49:23] will go into a positive direction
[00:49:26] because people are going to want
[00:49:27] things to be better for them
[00:49:29] and they'll they'll decide
[00:49:30] something rationally
[00:49:31] as opposed to something
[00:49:32] that is, you know,
[00:49:35] that's more fear based
[00:49:36] or religious.
[00:49:38] You know what I mean?
[00:49:38] Like this is this is a
[00:49:39] this is a real thing
[00:49:40] that is going to sharpen
[00:49:41] people's minds
[00:49:42] in the near future
[00:49:43] about the direction
[00:49:43] that this country
[00:49:44] is going to go in.
[00:49:45] We're at an inflection point
[00:49:46] right now.
[00:49:47] You know what I mean?
[00:49:47] It could go either way.
[00:49:48] It could go towards
[00:49:50] fascism or it could
[00:49:51] go towards utopianism.
[00:49:52] I have a feeling
[00:49:53] that it's going to go
[00:49:54] in the direction
[00:49:55] that I'm hoping for,
[00:49:56] that it will a more
[00:49:57] just and more
[00:49:59] economically secure future
[00:50:01] for people in this country
[00:50:02] and around the world
[00:50:03] because I think A.I.
[00:50:04] is going to
[00:50:04] is going to make that happen.
[00:50:06] It's going to increase
[00:50:06] their productivity
[00:50:08] will be increased,
[00:50:08] but the need for people
[00:50:09] to actually do things
[00:50:10] will be decreased
[00:50:11] by such a degree
[00:50:13] that you just can't expect people
[00:50:14] to just lay down on the road
[00:50:15] and die.
[00:50:15] You know, it's just not going to happen.
[00:50:17] It's not feasible.
[00:50:18] They're going to have
[00:50:18] to do something.
[00:50:19] The whole concept of money
[00:50:20] is going to have to an exchange
[00:50:21] will have to be rethought
[00:50:23] and reconfigured
[00:50:23] around something
[00:50:24] that's workable
[00:50:26] in a scenario
[00:50:27] where some people
[00:50:28] are incapable
[00:50:29] by the structure
[00:50:30] of the super system
[00:50:32] and being able
[00:50:32] to participate in it.
