We're experimenting with the addition of episode transcriptions. Note: the audio is transcribed with AI, via Otter.
Jack Tatum 0:12
It's less than less. So like that for me where we're all sit down and in sort of the traditional sense and pick up a guitar and write a song start to finish or, you know, it's like I've, when I'm in a situation where i, where i have like a piano at, at my fingertips, like, it's fun, it's fun to try and write and all these different ways. But for me, you know, I don't. So much of how I write is is intertwined with with recording to the point where it's, you know, like, writing a song is synonymous with, with, like, sitting at my desk with, with all my stuff. So for the most part, yeah, it's like I'm, I'm, I'm much more of like a right as I record person,
Brian Heater 1:01
there's a video on your, I guess it's called x now accounts, that that kind of walks through the process of, you know, laying down the tracks. And it strikes me that that one specifically, and you say you say as much that it's built around a specific break beat, and then everything kind of comes from there.
Jack Tatum 1:24
Yeah, well, yeah, that song in particular, I'm pretty sure you're talking about this song God headlights on. I mean, that song is, is fairly. I mean, it's sort of like a dance track, both in the way that it's made, and, you know, roughly how it sounds. I mean, I don't, you know, it's like, I don't typically write a lot of music that's so like, everything is that that programmed out, I think about my own music in in as like a like, in the way that I think I imagine electronic musicians think about their music, where it's like, I'm always kind of, it's hard for me to, to escape the sort of, like recording software as being kind of like, where, where it all happens, and where I'm building out the structures and, and, you know, it's, it can be kind of a negative thing to get to get trapped within this this gridded out like way of looking at music, it's sort of unnatural, but but it's also I find that it's fun to to approach sort of, like more traditional songwriting in that in that way, where you're kind of like, able to sort of like pull things around and move them however you want. And it's like putting this jigsaw puzzle together.
Brian Heater 2:44
That song in particular is an interesting example. And it's interesting to hear that it was built that way, because of like, what a deeply personal song. It is.
Jack Tatum 2:57
Yeah. And I think that, that that dichotomy was kind of what made me feel comfortable releasing a song like that, because I think if it was, if it was just purely like a like pumped up party song or something like it wouldn't, it wouldn't have really
Brian Heater 3:16
LMFAO
Jack Tatum 3:20
then then it just like it wouldn't have sat right with me, I think. I think I was comfortable releasing a song that was a bit more of like, you know, borderline dance music, like Body Music meant to be felt meant to sort of, you know, get your, your, your head moving, but then also having these these like, these really personal lyrics about you know, like, sort of exposing this this slightly uglier side of your, of yourself and sort of, like exposing this. Like, being really honest about like, having a really difficult time. In my relationship, like, immediately following having a kid, you know,
Brian Heater 4:05
those specific lyrics somehow came up organically through the process of putting the song together.
Jack Tatum 4:12
Well, uh, you know, I think it started off with with just kind of being, like, chance that I was starting to work on this song, while also like going through this this moment in time that I just sort of needed that that catharsis, of being able to write it down and and put it somewhere so that it wasn't just like sitting in my head. And I think I you know, and I've talked about it a little bit and other interviews that I've done, but but I think I I started realizing sort of the catharsis in putting it in a song like that, that was sort of more like, musically speaking kind of like uplifting. upbeat, which, you know, it's like I'm not like reinventing the wheel here by like, putting like various emotions together in one thing, but but but I think to me, it's sort of like, it kind of felt like it felt it felt like a release on both sides in slightly different ways, you know, the sort of, like, really honest, urness approach to just kind of getting getting my feelings out there, while while also making this music that is was almost kind of like I don't know, yeah, just sort of like, like, meant to help you get through a hard time or something.
Brian Heater 5:38
Earnest is an interesting word in this context, because it's one thing to be concerned about, you know, just putting something deeply personal in the world. But when you use the word earnest, it, you know, make makes me think of times that I've tried to do or have have created things that put them out or held them because they were too earnest, because, you know, you worry about sort of dipping over into the side of being like, writing that like self indulgent poem or something.
Jack Tatum 6:08
Right? Yeah. Yeah, totally. I feel like it's something that I'm conscious of a lot when I'm writing. In I don't know, I'm, it's, it's maybe just an age thing. It's just like getting older, maybe I just like care less, I'm a little less concerned with being cool. I don't really like you know, I think I think things that I that I maybe would have reserved for myself or kind of like, made and walked back in a previous life because I've felt like, oh, well, you know. I'm less concerned about seeming corny, or something like, like, like, to me, I'm willing to take that risk of like, just being really kind of like, you know, I think, again, earnest, I think earnest is the is the right word for it. Because it's, it's a little bit more than honesty. It's sort of like, not being afraid to just seem like uncool.
Brian Heater 7:07
But in this instance, you alluded to this a little bit before, but in this instance, having I guess, having music that's to a certain extent, discordant with the lyrics, I think helps not deflect but but counteract from some of that.
Jack Tatum 7:24
Right. Yeah. Which is, you know, it is interesting that clearly, there's a part of me that is, that is still like, a little protective, because because I do use these things, right? You know, it's like, it's not, I'm still probably not going to, like, put out a song that's like a very sort of, like, traditional ballad where I'm singing, like, you know, I need like, I still, I still need to find these ways to, like, deflect or to, like, skew what I'm doing. Um, and I think, you know, part of it is protective, but then another part of it is, is just because, like, I liked that, I liked that in the, in the, in the music that I that I listened to, or like, the movies that I watch or whatever, you know, it's like, I always, always, like when there's I like I enjoy things that have sort of like a mass appeal, but also still find a way to try and like, do it thoughtfully and artfully, because I think it's that that's sort of like an art form in itself of like, like, not just making something that's that's purely for mass consumption, and not just making something that's, that's purely self expression, and as weird as it wants to be, like, the things that find a way to sort of, like, meet in the middle in an effective way. I feel like those are the things that interests me the most,
Brian Heater 8:58
I saw the new Scorsese movie last week, and I was thinking about how how increasingly rare someone is like him is going to be and how I am, you know, sympathetic to there's been this whole thing like, you know, Marvel movies, he, you know, he should talk some superhero movies, and it made a lot of people on the internet really upset. And I think that there's I think there's a parallel here because I think that both of these industries, really anything that's creative now is in, in, in the mainstream of things entirely ruled by algorithm, and that's what you're trying to avoid.
Jack Tatum 9:39
Yeah. Yeah, cuz it's like, I think there's still something to be said about like, something that isn't driven by numbers. That like does come from a genuine place of like, self expression, but but also, like, is sort of purposeful in its relatability
Brian Heater 10:02
that song, you know, I got stuck on that song because I was watching that video of you making it and you know, there are there's a line in there that I don't even know, I'm probably paraphrasing, but and I'm going to do an awful thing of putting it back to you. It's okay. But, but But you say why does it have to be? Or why do I have to be so hard to love and that was just that was a gut punch for me, man. That's a That's a tough line.
Jack Tatum 10:36
Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, because I think there's times where I've, where I felt that I felt like I, I purposely put up barriers in my, in my relationships and in my, like, really important relationships in my life. And it's like, you, you know, it's, it's so hard. I think, when you're going through life in you recognize certain, like, self destructive tendencies, and not necessarily in the sense of like, the things you would normally think about, but but just kind of like, like behaviors or thought processes that are sort of, like, self defeating and make make things harder for yourself. And it's just, you know, and you know, that you're doing them and you just kind of like, why, why do I do this? I think that's kind of like what that line was about, you know, in that instance, specifically, with, with sort of, like, the way that that my, my wife and I's relationship changed after having a kid and just sort of like, like, knowing that things had to change and that our life was was gonna look a lot different. But But still, as you're going through it, it's like, you can't help but be a little bit surprised or, like, you know, I think there's a lot of things that we were naive about, like, having a kid which, you know, is just like the normal growing pains of of, of parenthood in general. But, yeah, yeah.
Brian Heater 12:02
I mean, what's an example of something that really blindsided you?
Jack Tatum 12:10
I mean, I think I think you're you know, you're already quite dependent in a lot of ways on on the people in your life that you're closest with, whether it's your, your partner, or your parents, or whoever it is, and I think I was I was a little maybe under underprepared for sort of, like how much we would really be relying on each other, just to sort of like get through these things that previously were. You know, just like your very normal day to day things, like like things, things that used to be so easy are now difficult. And that's like, you know, and whatever. It's like, I don't want to turn this into like, a boring parenting situation but, but But you know, it's just like, all these little things, just like getting out the door in the morning. It's like, it's hard it takes it takes much longer and it's like these these micro frustrations build and I think you you always, or at least I think we told ourselves like, Oh, like this stuff isn't gonna it's not gonna faze us it's not going to build up in the same way for us. Because we felt that our relationship was so strong. And you know, it's like it's it's it's it's back to being in a strong place but it like it took a lot of work and took a lot of like of work to get back there after having a kid I think
Brian Heater 13:35
how does she react when you play her a song like this?
Jack Tatum 13:39
I mean, she's she's understanding about it, I think you know, and I and I certainly wouldn't feel as comfortable talking about this stuff if we didn't have these kinds of conversations like often but yeah, you know, it's like I'm sure it's it's it must be weird for her in the sense that like there's there's a lot of our life reflected back in the music and so that's at once relatable but also it's like it's my vantage point but you know, and this is this is about as like as deep as I'd be willing to go anyway like about like my own personal life and in the music is a song like headlights on
Brian Heater 14:26
which is pretty pretty personal frankly. Yeah,
Jack Tatum 14:29
yeah. For sure. But yeah, I don't know it's like I think as I've as I've gotten older, I just like
I don't know why I feel like less scared about like exploring these these things that are sort of like bigger and deeper and normally scary or something of just sort of like,
Brian Heater 14:57
I don't think that that is Unusual. Yeah, at all. And I'm certainly on a one of a long list of people who had my reasons for not wanting to do therapy for a long time. The big one is that my mom's a therapist, which you'll find that a lot of therapists like it puts them off to
Jack Tatum 15:19
it. Sure, yeah.
Brian Heater 15:21
But got pushed to that point, because of the last, you know, three, three and a half years. Yeah. Yeah. Just like living alone in New York. It was like, Okay, well, at least like very least, to have somebody to talk to now, but,
Jack Tatum 15:34
yeah, yeah, it was, you know, I don't I don't want to like harp on it for too long. But, but yeah, I mean, you know, that, that that definitely played such a huge part of it, too, of just sort of, like, where my mindset has been over the past few years of, you know, like, having a kid is already such a, like, a monumentous thing in your life. And, and, you know, we obviously, like, pulled so much joy out of the experience, still, even under the circumstances, but but like, you know, I think there's already a level of fear of like, becoming apparent, and sort of like the weight of that responsibility, but then, like, doubling that with, like, oh, well, now I need to, like, wipe down all my groceries, because like, I might, like, pass along a deadly disease to my infant son. It's like, Oh, my God, like, in that, and I feel like that that sort of paranoia, like, frankly, took a long time to read myself up.
Brian Heater 16:39
What is your wife do?
Jack Tatum 16:40
I mean, she's done a number of things. She designed Julie for a long time. And then more recently, she's been trained to become a doula. Because, yeah, I, you know, our son's just like, yeah, that that birth experience was was really moving for her. And she's kind of like, really, really gone deep on on. I think kind of like, like, supporting women through that process. So yeah, so that's what she's she's doing at the moment,
Brian Heater 17:12
I asked, because you have this very strange job that requires you, most of the time, not required to you, but most days, you're home, like you're obviously you're working from home, you're calling me in the studio right now. You know, I certainly have had this issue with when I've lived with girlfriends before, of like, tensions get really high when people are living on top of each other. And in the pandemic, like really put a lot of relationships at the tests, because, you know, you weren't leaving, and there's this stress and everything else, but then you also have a job that requires you to just go out on the road and not be home for for weeks at a time.
Jack Tatum 17:57
Yeah, and it's funny, because I feel like that that was something that was always, like, built into our relationship for for years, and it was just sort of understood that I would be be gone for, you know, like, a month here a month there. And, you know, it wasn't like, it wasn't like, there weren't occasionally problems because of it, but I think it was, it was sort of like the nature of our relationship, that we would get these breaks from each other that, that, I think, sort of, like fueled the health of our relationship in a lot of ways, because, you know, we did sort of have these these periods of sort of, you know, being able to kind of, like, go about our own business while while still having each other. Yeah, so I mean, of course, you know, pandemic changed a lot, a lot about that, too. But, yeah, it'll be it'll be interesting, you know, like, I'm going out on the road and a couple of weeks here, it's not a terribly long tour, I've kind of like, I've sort of made the decision that I that I want to tour in a different way. Now that I'm a I'm a father and like it's already like it's it's, it's I feel like it's getting increasingly harder to tour and like I don't know, I feel like there's so much talk in like the music industry these days about whether it's merch cuts or blah blah blah and you know, like ticket prices having to go up and I mean, like the whole massive of ticket master and all this stuff. So it's like, it's already a bit of a maze to navigate but, but I am feeling for sure. Like I wanted to try and find a way to do it in the shorter spurts so that I'm, you know, able to spend more time at home with the family.
Brian Heater 19:52
I know it's the first record and five years but having toured in the intervening time,
Jack Tatum 19:58
up just a little bit, you know, like we, we had a fairly large tour plan to celebrate the 10 year anniversary of our first record, and that was back in 2020. So that got, you know, postponed a number of times, like like everyone's tours did. And we did eventually do it. So that was that was good fun. And then, yeah, but nothing. Nothing like super substantial. mostly been home. Yeah.
Brian Heater 20:27
No, I know. You moved to Richmond. Was that was that a pandemic move?
Jack Tatum 20:33
It was before actually. Yeah. So I'm so really good timing on your part that Yeah, yeah, it was, it was about I guess I've been here like five years now. I moved to Richmond. Surely, it was like, around the same time that my last record came out, actually. But yeah, yeah, it was it was like a big a big shift for sure. In terms of my lifestyle and yeah, you know, like, I I feel like I had a lot of mixed feelings about it over over the years, but I'm now just like, so thankful to be back in Virginia. It's like I don't know. It's, it's funny. All the places that I've lived. I never I never really felt settled. I never really. I don't know if it's like yeah, it's just like that. There's some sort of like weird spiritual calling to me with with Virginia, where it's just like, I just feel comfortable here. In a way that I never really did anywhere else. You were
Brian Heater 21:40
in LA previously.
Jack Tatum 21:42
I was Yeah.
Brian Heater 21:43
I'm saying this is in New Yorker, but like, settled is a relative term when you live in a city that size? Yeah.
Jack Tatum 21:51
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And like, I never I think too, it's just I didn't, you know, when you when you're in your 20s and, you know, I was living in New York for a long time, which, which was close enough to Virginia that I was so good to see my family like fairly often. But But yeah, just you know, like, my parents are still in Virginia. They're like an hour away in the same town where I grew up in Williamsburg. It's just like, it's been so meaning
Brian Heater 22:23
you're from Colonial Williamsburg.
Jack Tatum 22:24
I am. Yeah. Which I'm happy to talk about if you want it's
Brian Heater 22:33
that's all I want to talk about now. Yeah.
Jack Tatum 22:35
So presumably, you've been then. I haven't
Brian Heater 22:38
been I you know, I just I know that. I know that. Maybe I might have gone when I was really
Jack Tatum 22:42
Yeah, I know what Yeah, it's like, for most, I feel like for most people growing up on the East Coast, it is sort of like a mandatory. Either family vacation or school trip.
Brian Heater 22:54
I'm actually from California. Okay, gotcha. Eventually, but but we did make that experience out to like DC. So I think there's a reasonable chance that Yeah,
Jack Tatum 23:04
yeah. I mean, yeah. What, what, what, what
Brian Heater 23:08
really a question is what was what's it like, but yeah.
Jack Tatum 23:13
Well, it's I did not appreciate it at all as a kid, you know, like,
Brian Heater 23:21
I thought, of course. It's just normal. Yeah.
Jack Tatum 23:25
Yeah. And it's like, yeah, it was sort of like, oh, like, like, doesn't everyone have like a part of town where there's like, colonial garb and like, horses pooping in the street? Like, that's, that's just normal, right. But yeah, you know, it's like, it's, it's, it's very much like there's, there's the central part of town, which was, you know, the colonial part of town. And I want to say like, I think it was like the Rockefellers or something that Edison at some point, like dumped a bunch of money into the restoration of, of Colonial Williamsburg and yeah, you know, it's it's interesting there's, there's a, there's a lot of, you know, in Jamestown it's just down the road Yorktown I just grew up around all of this. All of these like really sort of like important places and in the the American history textbook as far as like, English settlement and colonialism. But so you know, I have my I feel like my interest in IT IS is higher now than it was when I was a kid. Be I was funny, man. I mean, there's like a lot of weird things. Definitely, like had a lot of friends that sort of like worked in COVID Williamsburg.
Brian Heater 24:47
Is that like a high school job?
Jack Tatum 24:50
For some people, yeah. Oh, there was also like, there was this thing called the Fife and Drum Corps, which is basically like the program where like little kids Kids would join and they would either learn how to play the five or like, you know, the like old, old old timey marching snare drum. And then, you know, they would do concerts and like march around Colonial Williamsburg, like playing, playing old timey music. And but like, it had this crazy waiting list. So you know, like people would sign up their kids when they were babies to like, become part of this thing. And I think my parents signed me up, but I didn't they, they didn't think in advance enough or something. But yeah, I was like, I knew some people that did that might the first job that I ever had, I worked at a Baskin Robbins that was in Colonial Williamsburg. And yeah, that was psychotic. It was just like, you know, it's, it was just people out the door all day long. scooping ice cream for $5 an hour.
Brian Heater 25:51
I'm thinking about the I don't know if you remember the movie cable guy, but they go to medieval times. And yeah. They don't have silverware. But they serve Pepsi. Like just the disconnect between working at it. Oh, yeah. at Baskin Robbins. Yeah.
Jack Tatum 26:06
And it's like, you know, you, you would just be like, at the gas station, somewhere in town. And then someone would like pull up in their civic and get out wearing like, full colonial garb because they just came from work or whatever. It's like a lot of that kind of stuff.
Brian Heater 26:19
You know, you lived in the two biggest cities in the country. Did you? Like New York and LA? Yeah, of course. No, I wouldn't. There's no listen, there's no. Like, I yeah, I mean, I've been living here for a long time. Now. I love it. I understand a lot of people don't. I like them. Both from smaller places. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of place. There's,
Jack Tatum 26:41
I would, I wouldn't, I would never live in New York again. Just because, you know, like, I don't feel like I can afford to live in New York and the way that I that I, I'm just I'm so used now to to having like, a little more room to breathe being an enrichment. Yeah, I, you know, I, my, my personal experience was that I enjoyed living in Los Angeles a bit more, because I, and I think what it was, is it just kind of came down to these, these like, comforts of like, my upbringing, where like, I grew up driving everywhere, and, you know, like, going to like, I don't know, I just feel like there's there's a lot more like familiarity in Los Angeles, where it's like driving, you're gonna love LA. Yeah, you can just hop in your car and go to Target. Whereas like, you know, if you like, need need some basic necessity in New York, it's like a full day affair.
Brian Heater 27:46
It either is a full day airfare or it's like directly below you.
Jack Tatum 27:49
Right? Yeah, true. True. True. Yeah, it's like some things are incredibly convenient in a way that like, you can't get anywhere else. And then other things are wildly inconvenient. But yeah, I don't know. I have love
Brian Heater 28:03
for both. Where are these places that you move, specifically for your career?
Jack Tatum 28:08
I think so. I never, I never really, I was not one of these people that grew up like was stars in my eyes being like, I'm going to move to the big city, I'm going to move to New York. Like, you know, I went to New York, maybe three times tops, like in my childhood, and it always just, like, scared the shit out of me. It was not it wasn't it didn't really like gel with with my character and my, my personality. And but you know, just as I got older, yeah, so I went to school at Virginia Tech, which is in like Western Virginia. And, and when I and that's, you know, where I kind of like started making music more seriously, although I had always made music since I was a little kid. But, you know, I started working on my first record when I was in my senior year of college there. And then it got released, kind of took off a little bit. And I had a lot of friends that moved up to New York at that time, and I just like I just wasn't mentally prepared. I don't know why. Just like I couldn't do it. But I had some friends. I'm in Savannah, Georgia of all places. And so I moved there for a year, like immediately following College, very different place than New York. Oh, yeah, absolutely. which I loved. I mean, I love Savannah as a city. It's it's, it's so gorgeous. And so unlike everywhere else in the United States. But, you know, I was just like, ultimately, I was just sort of, like, bored and lonely and like, I was touring so much that it was like, I was touring so much that I couldn't ever really like get a footing there. And then eventually, like my lease right now, and I was like, Okay, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna do it at that point. Like all the people I was working with were in New York. You know, I had an friends up there that it was like, it didn't feel like some scary thing of like moving to a new place where I didn't know anyone. So yeah, I did that and ended up. I was there for like, five years. How does the
Brian Heater 30:12
band thing work when you're living in entirely different places?
Jack Tatum 30:17
I mean, the, like, the band, like the wild nothing touring band has has been pretty amorphous over the years, you know? And, yeah, it's, you know, I'm, I'm to me, it's so normal now that I don't even really question it. It doesn't seem that weird. I, you know, I, I miss a lot of the things about, there's been times when we've all been in the same city. And that's been really nice. You know, it's like, you can just very casually meet up to rehearse and all that stuff, but, but at this point, now, it's like, it's fairly normal to me to be like, Alright, I gotta like, book flights for everyone. And you're all coming to Richmond, and we're going to, like, rehearse before this tour. Like, right now, you know, the, the band is split between people here, people in LA drummers in New York. So yeah, it's just kind of like, all over the place. I noticed
Brian Heater 31:12
that, you know, you've been doing some songwriting for other people, or at least your songs have appeared on other people's albums. Yeah, that seems like a very la thing to me for some reason.
Jack Tatum 31:23
Yeah. Well, yeah, totally. And that, that did kind of start when I was living out there. Because there is such a culture of sort of, like collaborative songwriting, and, like, songwriting sessions, and these, this sort of like, like, purposeful writing of songs that sort of, like, don't necessarily have a home. Which, which is an it's an odd way to write music, it's, you know, I found it kind of fun, I think. I never sort of had that approach of like, looking down on on sort of, like the the pop songwriting process. To me, it's just, it's just like a very different thing. It's like, I view it like, as sort of like loosely self expression, but it's more about kind of like that collaboration. It's more about like problem solving or something. So it's sort of like a different approach that I thought was kind of fun. But anyway, I did end up getting set up through my publishing company on like, a number of of these, like writing dates, if you will. Most of which never worked out because it's, it's just, like, awkward getting in a room with someone you've never met before to be like, okay, YouTube, boneheads write a song, it's like, ooh. But But yeah, I was I was lucky in that film did work out. And. And yeah, and it's like, when it does work out, it's, it's really rewarding. And I feel like I'm definitely interested in doing doing more of a writing for other people producing for other people. It's, it's just like, I feel like it exercises a slightly different part of my musical brain in a way that's, that's really kind of freeing because I'm, as someone who works on And largely, like, produces their own music to it's like, I just, I get so deep in into it when I'm when it's my own thing. And I also, you know, like, I'm much more careful, I'm much more you know, it's like, I I do things at the risk of overthinking a lot of the time, because it's like, there's this perfectionist, perfectionist stuff. Yeah, like perfectionist tendencies come out,
Brian Heater 33:45
which is really easy to do when you're making it on a computer.
Jack Tatum 33:48
Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just everything is, like, editable forever. But yeah, when it's a bit like those things, kind of fade away a little bit when I'm working on someone else's music, which isn't to say that I like don't put the same care or attention into it. But it's like, there's always this thing in the back of mine, where it's like, well, like, this isn't going to be mine.
Brian Heater 34:11
They'll take it the rest of the way.
Jack Tatum 34:13
Yeah. Or it's like, you know, if, if, if there's choices being made that suit their taste, and like, what they think is great, even if it's not like the way that I would do something, it's like, it's so much easier to just let it go. And just, like enjoy the process of it.
Brian Heater 34:27
I had sort of mentioned earlier when we were talking about algorithms, you know, how they're, I mean, there is an extent, and I don't think this is true with all pop music, but you know, you'll hear a song and you'll be like, well, that, you know, a computer helps someone, right? Like that was, you know, and there are there are there are ways in which people producing songs or you know, effectively trying to game the system and you know, they feel like they know what works on the radio, but you feel like there's a way to enter this process and steal really make it personal and invest yourself into something. Yeah.
Jack Tatum 35:07
I think there is. But I think to like another thing that that I sometimes really like about pop music is when when there's a level of self awareness
I feel like that's something that I like really enjoy about. Like, Charlie sex has music for instance where, like, that's like capital P pop music but but there's, there's like, the I feel like there's a real sort of like intellectual awareness about like, what what is happening and sort of like, the way that it's being marketed that, that they're just like, reads a little bit different than like some pop music where it does just feel kind of like it's like, no, there's, there's such a fine line sometimes. So it's, it's hard, it's hard to sort of, like say, why one thing might resonate with me, whereas another thing doesn't. But yeah, I mean, you know, like, honestly, I spend more time thinking about pop music than I do listening to pop music. If that makes sense.
Brian Heater 36:20
It does. Because I, you know, I was thinking about that in the context of the way that you were describing both your own songwriting and songwriting with someone else. Have you use the word problem solving? And it seems to me, like, I mean, obviously, you know, there's a lot of heart, and there's a lot of honesty, and it's music, but it seems like you have a very analytical approach when it comes to putting a song together.
Jack Tatum 36:43
Yeah, and I think I think it comes from the way that I approached music from from the very beginning, which is that, you know, at 10 years old, my dad, who also plays guitar, you know, I went to him and was like, I think I want to learn how to play guitar. And so he, you know, he taught me a few things, and then kind of just sent me on my way to, to, to approach it in my own way, which I was really thankful for. And, but it was, it was kind of clear to me immediately that like, I didn't love playing guitar, I liked I liked what it offered me and I like, the, like the door that suddenly opened, which in my mind was, was, like, this thing is a means to an end, in the end is being able to record songs. Because it was like, you know, I feel like I learned enough to, to, like, do the things that I wanted to do on guitar, but it was all sort of like in service of being able to, to write songs. And I feel like, almost immediately, it was like, I was interested in songwriting, because I liked seeing the way that all the instruments fit together. And I liked, it wasn't that I like, would listen to a song and be like, oh, man, like that guitar, sound rips or like, it was always about like, the hole. In I think, because of that, I've always kind of approached music with both sides of my brain where it's like, it is a very sort of, like, creative thing and, and cathartic thing in terms of like, you know, like, giving a place for my emotions and giving a place to, to, like, create moods and like, but it's also you know, I'm so in love with the process. And it's like that, that is half the fun to me. Is is the is like the engineering and production side of it. It's interesting,
Brian Heater 38:41
there is a there's a visual aspect to computer production that you don't get otherwise. And this seems to play into what you're talking about, about being able to actually like look at a track and being able to literally see how things fit together.
Jack Tatum 38:58
Yeah, and it's like, you know, I feel like depending on someone's personality, or the way that they they personally approach or listen to music, it's like I think for some people that might be sacrilege to think of music in that way where it's like this visual thing where you're just you're just seeing these layers stacked on top of one another instead of just like feeling it you know, but it's like, I've always felt that like you can do both like it's it's not I think having like an intellect analytical ear when you listen to music doesn't lessen sort of the emotional impact of something and also you know, I don't it's it's sort of interesting because I I'm someone who like does really enjoy reading and really enjoys poetry and really enjoys when when a song that I that I like or listened to Has Has something lyrically that I find really affecting or really relatable. But I also listen to a ton of instrumental and like ambient music that I find as or like sometimes even more like moving then, you know, like storytelling music. And like so to me, it's that like, that's, that's the power of music is sort of like the ability to, to sort of like, imply a motion as much as like telling you directly something to good point.
Brian Heater 40:37
I was watching some video of you of the band playing want to say it was Lollapalooza, maybe or pitchfork or some one of those sorts of festivals? And you were, you're playing guitar? Is that standard for you in a live setting?
Jack Tatum 40:56
Yeah, and always has been, um, there's been occasions where I'll play keyboard, but yeah, I mean, still, to this day, even though like I play a lot of different things. Guitars will always be my first instrument. And so it's sort of like the thing that makes the most sense for me to play live. Like, I don't consider myself a proficient keyboard player. It's like, I sort of have to stumble through things when I'm when I'm recording keyboard parts. Yeah, I mean, like, bass is my favorite instrument. But But I mean, a lot of my baselines are, like, fairly melodic. And so you know, then it just becomes difficult to sing and play. Because you're, you're keeping multiple melodies in your head at the same time with different timing, and it's just like complicated. Yeah, so So guitar, it is that's sort of like my, my safe spot.
Brian Heater 41:51
And there's also a dynamism to guitar that it's hard to replicate playing and singing keyboards.
Jack Tatum 41:57
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's like, I don't know, it's, it's, it is a little bit funny sometimes, like when I'm teaching new, new band members, parts of the song, because the way that I write songs is so much coming from that place of thinking of the song as a whole. And it's like, it's really my belief that like, as long as a part serves like the, the whole of the song, then it doesn't need to be a complicated thing. And it's like, there's occasionally parts where I'm having to, like, apologize to my bandmates, I'm just like, This is gonna be really boring for you, because like, you're, you're you're part sort of serves this very specific purpose that serves the rest of the song, but it's like, it's not like, an engaging thing in itself. Like, the parts are so reliant on the other parts in order for the song to work,
Brian Heater 42:50
once the song is written and recorded, that's how it exists in the world, how much I guess how much freedom does does your live band have?
Jack Tatum 43:01
Um, I mean, I think we've always sort of taken the approach of, of trying to stay true to to the recordings, if only at first just because it's, it's sort of, like a necessary thing to do in order to kind of like, initially approach the song. i But you know, I always find that the more we play them, and especially if we're doing a longer tour, that that like, the small liberties start being taken and, and decisions about, like, oh, maybe we move this part around, or maybe we won't play this part for as long we'll play his part for longer, like those decisions kind of, like naturally grow out of out of playing together night after night. But yeah, you know, it's like, I think, because I do so much of the recording on my own, and let's like, these, these, these records exist before, they they like, are played in a room. It's, it's sort of like that, it's sort of the only blueprint that exists for the songs. Which, you know, like I'm always I sometimes I'm jealous of of like, these, like really sort of traditional bands, where you've got, like, multiple people hashing out a song in a space before it's even recorded. Because I think that that that leads to something special as well. But and I don't know, I don't know if it's, I think it's like partially like, like an economic thing of like, I think it's just harder for for for bands to to like, approach music in that way. Because it's it's just so expensive to tour and lowball the stuff but like, I feel like you see less and less sort of like true collaborative bands where it's like you've got, you know, four or five people kind of like contributed something equally.
Brian Heater 44:50
I've noticed in in interviewing people that that bands have also become much more geographically dispersed because they're able to but it would be I'm sure you've thought about this, but it would be an interesting experiment for you to attempt to write a album in that way.
Jack Tatum 45:09
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I know that I feel that there's so so many sort of, like, experiments in the, in the process of like, how to approach writing a song that I'm constantly flirting with being like, oh, like, I really should try that. And then it's just old old habits always die hard, you know.
Brian Heater 45:24
So this is your first fully self produced album since the first one. Is that right?
Jack Tatum 45:29
Yeah. Yeah. So the first record was, was like, truly just did everything, you know, like, cuz I was just, you know, like recording songs, regardless. And in my apartment and Blacksburg, Virginia, where I lived at the time. And it wasn't until I was sort of like halfway through the process of just like writing these songs that I like, got a small deal to sort of like, make and release the record. So it's kind of like, oh, well, I guess I'm making a record now. But yeah, I just there was zero budget, there wasn't, it didn't really even crossed my mind that I would make it any other way. It was just sort of like, Oh, I'm just gonna, like, do everything on this. And then, you know, as things kind of took off, and I had access to a lot more resources and all that stuff, it's like, I kind of like, got more and more into the idea of like, pulling more people in and making records in a more traditional sense, and like, utilizing professional studio spaces and all that kind of stuff. But, um, but I've always, I've always, like, really enjoyed working alone. And and I think it's just kind of gotten to the point where it's like, my demos are more or less indistinguishable from like, what the record would be anyway, so it's like, why putting all this effort into something just to like rerecord it. So it's just like, now when I'd have a song that I know, I kind of like, I'm just, I'm just like, Alright, I'm gonna, I'm gonna record this. And you know, I might occasionally replace things here or there, but it's like, it's always sort of a given from the get go that like, I'm going to be using some of if not all of the things that I like record from this point on.
Brian Heater 47:09
It's funny that you've actually become less collaborative over time.
Jack Tatum 47:14
I'm a control freak. I'm a total control freak.
Brian Heater 47:17
It works. Yeah, yeah, I
Jack Tatum 47:19
guess. Yeah, it's you know, me music has always been sort of like this, this sort of solitary activity for me. Which is sad because there's so much beauty and collaboration and you know, like but like, I think to me that my feeling has always been like, oh, well as soon as I like collaborate on this it's no longer the same thing. It's like it would it would be something else and I'm like, fully open to that. But but like, I don't know I don't know why I sort of like put up these these like, boundaries are definitions in my mind that like, for whatever reason, like in my mind, while nothing is just this this thing that I like, hack out alone.